Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

don't do the help ever

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Disclaimer: I'm a guy who has been married for 20 years. I don't think I've flirted with anyone but my wife since then. (I was never that good at flirting.)

Some of the male response to the recent wave of harassment news has been to complain that innocent attempts to flirt or strike up a romance will get them fired for harassment. Is the line really that ambiguous?

Step one would seem to be just not to pursue romance at work. But, I guess for some that might be unrealistic - work might be the only place they interact with other people. Step two, if you are going to pursue romance at work, don't pursue a subordinate. Step three, be polite and take no for an answer.

Am I oversimplifying?

Rule #1 - don't sh*t where you eat (i.e., no romance of any sort at work)

Rule #2 - don't be a f*cking asshole towards women.

~ another mid-40s guy here

Problem with rule 2 is, you don't get to define what "being an asshole" is. She may decide you're an asshole... many years after the fact.

This is true. There was a femle poster here who ws upet with men for saying hello to her when she was at a coffee shop. Shr never said they sai anything lewed or that they approached her more than once, but she still cclaimed she was a victim of harrassment.

The line should be obvious but there are nuts in the world.

So SHE's the nut because she's feeling harrased?!?!?!

GFY.

Go back to your MRA meeting, jerk.

Not the PP, but I think it was a good point. People saying "hello" to you in a coffee shop is not harassment. But this response shows how subjective it really is.

Well, the problem is, most men don’t go and randomly say hello to other men in coffee shops, or ask to sit with them. So why should women, quietly on their own, in a public place, have to endure constant infringements on their time and space?

+1 But here comes the "can't you take a compliment" brigade.

So a woman in public’s sole purpose is to be there to take your compliments? What if all she wanted to do is go out and get a coffee by herself? Do you compliment random men on your outings too?

My apologies, 1750... momentary lapse in comprehension. I see you were agreeing... this whole thread has everyone almost too livid to read!

So a random guy saying hello to you is the same as someone's boss raping them?

They are distant relatives...

No they aren't.

Ah, yes. We'll just keep letting the men define what rape is or isn't.

You ARE the problem

Don't you dare claim to speak for women.
Someone saying hello to you is nowhere near being raped and you mock the experience of actualr rape victims by saying it is. Shame on you!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:How ab It this as a measuring stick...if you wouldn’t say it or do it to another male in the office or in life, then you maybe shouldn’t do it to the woman you’re dealing with either.

This goes for everything from “that tie really brings out the colour of your eyes” to an ass grab.

Guy here. I don't think that's a good measuring stick. My male co-workers and I will often make sexually suggestive comments toward one another, in a joking way, that none of us would ever make toward a woman at work. Those same comments would absolutely be considered inappropriate with a female colleague. Indeed, one might argue that the fact we'd be that familiar with one another, but not with a female co-worker is a form of gender-based exclusion, but that's a slightly different topic. The key though is that male-female interactions are more complicated than you're suggesting.

But you’re not making serious sexual comments to each orher. By your own post, you’re joking. Do you see the difference?

Yes, but if I made the same joking sexualized comments to a female co-worker (“hey Mary, I see you’re wearing those tight slacks again to show off your toned ass!”), it would be a problem.

And if I told my male co-worker that I like his new haircut, it would also be weird. But the same comment to a female co-worker would not.

I’m not trying to excuse inappropriate behavior or comments. I’m just saying there isn’t a one to one comparison between what comments are appropriate or not between same sex and opposite sex conversations.

You shouldn’t be commenting on your female coworkers haircut either, actually. That’s the whole point.

It will all be better when we stop using human labor. There is a lot of grey area in a compliment about appearances, and it seems if opposite sex co-workers can't make them neither can anyone if the same sex.

[Anonymous]

Off topic, but you people who feel the need to quote 7 responses to add one line of text just destroy the readability of a thread.

[Anonymous]

It's not "polite" to "take no for an answer." Polite is giving up your seat on the Metro--you don't have to, it's nice to do.

You take no for an answer because that is the answer. Because that is the only decent, moral, respectable way to behave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

So a lawyer asks a paralegal at the same firm to go out for drinks. Makes suggestive comments about going out and having fun. Paralegal declines, saying it sounds like fun but has other plans this weekend, maybe some other time. Lawyer asks again the next week, and gets similar response. Pattern repeats several times over the course of a few months. Paralegal does not work directly for lawyer, but is at same firm. Is this sexual harassment?

Repeatedly asking a coworker out, after she's made it clear that she isn't interested, is generally regarded as harassment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

So a lawyer asks a paralegal at the same firm to go out for drinks. Makes suggestive comments about going out and having fun. Paralegal declines, saying it sounds like fun but has other plans this weekend, maybe some other time. Lawyer asks again the next week, and gets similar response. Pattern repeats several times over the course of a few months. Paralegal does not work directly for lawyer, but is at same firm. Is this sexual harassment?

Repeatedly asking a coworker out, after she's made it clear that she isn't interested, is generally regarded as harassment.

Are you saying that’s clear harassment, or just “generally considered” which is a little more ambiguous phrasing? Could not tell from your response.

Also, in my scenario, the paralegal did not say “not interested”, but rather said sounds like fun, not now, maybe some other time. Is your answer still so clear?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

So a lawyer asks a paralegal at the same firm to go out for drinks. Makes suggestive comments about going out and having fun. Paralegal declines, saying it sounds like fun but has other plans this weekend, maybe some other time. Lawyer asks again the next week, and gets similar response. Pattern repeats several times over the course of a few months. Paralegal does not work directly for lawyer, but is at same firm. Is this sexual harassment?

Repeatedly asking a coworker out, after she's made it clear that she isn't interested, is generally regarded as harassment.

+1.
Back to the original question. Is the line between courtship and harassment that blurry? Doesn’t everyone see the difference?

To the lawyer/paralegal poster...any way we can help you? What is the blurry line for your situation?

[Anonymous]

Stop pretending you don't know what's harassment and what isn't. Would you be offended for your wife, sister, mom, daughter? If so, it's harassment. It's obvious. So sick of men making these excuses for piggish behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stop pretending you don't know what's harassment and what isn't. Would you be offended for your wife, sister, mom, daughter? If so, it's harassment. It's obvious. So sick of men making these excuses for piggish behavior.

+1.
OBTUSE definition: annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

See the other thread re: bumbling

[Anonymous]

What if the paralegal is a 25 year old man, and the lawyer is a 27 year old woman? Still clearcut harassment?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What if the paralegal is a 25 year old man, and the lawyer is a 27 year old woman? Still clearcut harassment?

And is she harassing him the first time she asks him out? Or is it harassment only if she asks him out a second time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

So a lawyer asks a paralegal at the same firm to go out for drinks. Makes suggestive comments about going out and having fun. Paralegal declines, saying it sounds like fun but has other plans this weekend, maybe some other time. Lawyer asks again the next week, and gets similar response. Pattern repeats several times over the course of a few months. Paralegal does not work directly for lawyer, but is at same firm. Is this sexual harassment?

Repeatedly asking a coworker out, after she's made it clear that she isn't interested, is generally regarded as harassment.

Are you saying that’s clear harassment, or just “generally considered” which is a little more ambiguous phrasing? Could not tell from your response.

Also, in my scenario, the paralegal did not say “not interested”, but rather said sounds like fun, not now, maybe some other time. Is your answer still so clear?

In that case, I would say that asking her out again is probably not harassment. But, she could probably spin it as harassment if she wanted to. I doubt you'd get fired for it, but you might get called into HR and basically have career limiting mark on your file.

And, I agree. Harassment is not clear-cut. This is why stuff like the Mike Pence rule is suddenly getting popular. Better to err on the side of caution and keep any talk with women at the office strictly business and bland small talk.

[Anonymous]

That line between courtship and harassment is looking a lot blurrie now, isn’t it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if the paralegal is a 25 year old man, and the lawyer is a 27 year old woman? Still clearcut harassment?

And is she harassing him the first time she asks him out? Or is it harassment only if she asks him out a second time?

What does she look like?