Circumcision/Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think you're being very thoughtful about a difficult issue. Personally, I would tell my husband that I would prefer that my son not be circumcised, but that the ultimate decision would be his, and I would support him either way. I would make clear that it's because if we circumcised our son, it would be because of his religious background and cultural connections, and he's really the only one who can decide whether it's something that would be meaningful to him or just an empty ritual. If the latter, then I would prefer that my kid not be cut just for the sake of "tradition."

Thank you. This is sound advice. I may have to take it, for my own sanity! I think he feels, like me, that ultimately it's not important enough as a thing in itself to affect our relationship. Which is why we've been going back and forth individually and together, because we both feel that way about each other and about religion, and the other data aren't really settling it.

Must say this discussion has been very helpful to me, because I've realized that it's the social and cultural feedback vs. the religious per se that I was feeling swayed by. But I actually don't believe we should do things like this just because other people do them and I don't want to pass that on to my child. Clarifying that to myself helps me face the imaginary disappointment of others. If they are going to feel that strongly about circumcision/Jewish identity or whatever they probably secretly think I'm a shiksa, so then why should I hope my son will be accepted for his circumcision?

NP - I think PP above has the right way of looking at this, and it's what I'd have done in a similar situation.

My baby boy is uncircumcised, even though my husband is. We are not Jewish. I decided that I didn't want my son to undergo surgery for what is essentially just a cosmetic procedure. And I figured that he could always BE circumcised but he could never be UN-circumcised.

If your husband's family follows a sect of Judaism that says children must be born of Jewish mothers to be Jewish, circumcising him will not make him Jewish and will not cause the family to be more accepting of him, as you reason above. For those reasons, I would push strongly to not circumcise, and would only agree to do so if your husband REALLY made a compelling argument for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

Our pediatrician made the convincing case that this is not a good reason. Little boys' penises look nothing like grown mens'. No hair, etc. will your husband wax his pubes so his his penis looks like a child's?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think you're being very thoughtful about a difficult issue. Personally, I would tell my husband that I would prefer that my son not be circumcised, but that the ultimate decision would be his, and I would support him either way. I would make clear that it's because if we circumcised our son, it would be because of his religious background and cultural connections, and he's really the only one who can decide whether it's something that would be meaningful to him or just an empty ritual. If the latter, then I would prefer that my kid not be cut just for the sake of "tradition."

Thank you. This is sound advice. I may have to take it, for my own sanity! I think he feels, like me, that ultimately it's not important enough as a thing in itself to affect our relationship. Which is why we've been going back and forth individually and together, because we both feel that way about each other and about religion, and the other data aren't really settling it.

Must say this discussion has been very helpful to me, because I've realized that it's the social and cultural feedback vs. the religious per se that I was feeling swayed by. But I actually don't believe we should do things like this just because other people do them and I don't want to pass that on to my child. Clarifying that to myself helps me face the imaginary disappointment of others. If they are going to feel that strongly about circumcision/Jewish identity or whatever they probably secretly think I'm a shiksa, so then why should I hope my son will be accepted for his circumcision?

This really has nothing to do with your child or circumcision but has more to do with the religion of your husband and your feelings. Jews in Isreal are very different from Jews in the US. There are many Jews who do not like mixed marriages but many of us are in them. You need to be honest with your husband and tell him you are not comfortable with him practicing Judaism in your home (your, not his) and you need to tell him that you will not circumcise your child and that child will be exclusively practicing your religion. Problem solved.

(in all reality your child is mixed. Many will consider him Jewish. It may be uncomfortable if Dad ever takes him to Isreal and he doesn't identify with being Jewish around his paternal family. Smart thing to do is to find the best of both worlds in your home and practice both and expose the child to the best of both religions).

Well, that will be an interesting conversation because he will laugh and say he is relieved to hear it. He is secular and not at all interested in becoming religious. If anything I am the one who buys books about Jewish holidays and such for the kids because I feel it's important for them to understand their family heritage, and because we both feel religious education helps prevent an interest in fundamentalism down the line. We celebrate holidays as we would for any culture that is part of our identity and I enjoy the little rituals, even if I sometimes find certain interpretations of it off putting.

Not sure what my child will identify with, but I hope I raise him with enough self-confidence that other people's discomfort isn't the determining factor in his spiritual/moral life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

Probably.

Both my ob-gyn and our pediatrician were against it. The ob-gyn commented that she has seen circumcisions done badly or botched completely and that the effects of that are terrible - that like any surgery, it is not risk-free.

She would not do it for ethical reasons and told me that if we wanted it, we would need to find someone else to do it.

This would be my absolute worst nightmare, given how ambivalent we are about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

Our pediatrician made the convincing case that this is not a good reason. Little boys' penises look nothing like grown mens'. No hair, etc. will your husband wax his pubes so his his penis looks like a child's?

So glad there are peds like this. I've heard of some saying, "it's a hard decision, so just make it look like dad's"

[Anonymous]

Non-Jewish here. My husband was adamant that our son be circumcised. But he knew 2 men that had to have a circumcision done as adults. Our son had no problems at all.

Glad we had it done. Given there's quadruple the risk of cervical cancer in partners of uncircumcised men, seem to be the smarter route to go.

[Anonymous]

Non-Jewish here, but our last child was circumcised by a Mohel as we had a home birth. My midwife was (crunchy/annoying) very against it, but our pediatrician was actually very pro circumcision. Our older child had been traditionally circumcised in a hospital as that is where he was born. We chose to circ for social and traditional reasons, as well as for some of the medical benefits that it confers. While circ numbers may be dropping, where I live and in our SES they are still super high. Just like I have the ability to choose to vaccinate my children, to raise them a certain way, to choose their educational path etc, I/we made this choice for them and we haven't had a moment of retreat about it. Both circ's healed quickly and easily and there were no complications.

Good luck with your decision, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

It's actually pretty well-known why they said it. First, because it's true--it has some benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. But also because if they came out against it, the likely result would be that insurance companies would not cover the procedure.

The insurance thing makes sense. The other part just seems so weird. If the benefits outweigh the risks, then it's a beneficial procedure and you'd think that many more parents would be in your camp of wanting the best medical risk profile for their child overall. What's comparable to this, medically, in terms of procedures that are good for infants but not routinely recommended? I can't think of anything.

The APA said that the benefits outweigh the risks, but not by a lot. The benefits are pretty minimal for most people. I suspect that they would have taken a neutral stance but for the insurance issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

Our pediatrician made the convincing case that this is not a good reason. Little boys' penises look nothing like grown mens'. No hair, etc. will your husband wax his pubes so his his penis looks like a child's?

I hope that your husband does not do this. However, as a woman, I can say that I prefer a circumcised penis, because it is what I am used to and what I know. Just like most men prefer women with shaved armpits. I encountered one uncut penis in my single days and actually ended the relationship, I simply wasn't into it. I'm putting my sons in the majority because like it or not, cultural norms matter.

Circumcised boys may not be your cultural norm, but they are ours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

Our pediatrician made the convincing case that this is not a good reason. Little boys' penises look nothing like grown mens'. No hair, etc. will your husband wax his pubes so his his penis looks like a child's?

I hope that your husband does not do this. However, as a woman, I can say that I prefer a circumcised penis, because it is what I am used to and what I know. Just like most men prefer women with shaved armpits. I encountered one uncut penis in my single days and actually ended the relationship, I simply wasn't into it. I'm putting my sons in the majority because like it or not, cultural norms matter.

Circumcised boys may not be your cultural norm, but they are ours.

The intact man you dumped is better off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

It's actually pretty well-known why they said it. First, because it's true--it has some benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. But also because if they came out against it, the likely result would be that insurance companies would not cover the procedure.

The insurance thing makes sense. The other part just seems so weird. If the benefits outweigh the risks, then it's a beneficial procedure and you'd think that many more parents would be in your camp of wanting the best medical risk profile for their child overall. What's comparable to this, medically, in terms of procedures that are good for infants but not routinely recommended? I can't think of anything.

The APA said that the benefits outweigh the risks, but not by a lot. The benefits are pretty minimal for most people. I suspect that they would have taken a neutral stance but for the insurance issue.

+1
It absolutely has to do with insurance and cultural influence. Not science.

[Anonymous]

OP, see the old threads on the medical benefits. Even in the developed world, there are some -- including less vulnerability to STDs and other infections. I could re-post the links, but they are easy to find. They aren't huge, but they are concrete benefits. No circumcised man I have know has ever seemed to have any kind of issue at all with not being sensitive enough down there.

I agree that you need to separate the issues with the circumcision with your issues with his family and Jewishness. I am not Jewish, and married to a Jewish man who is partly Israeli, but mostly secular. We circumcised. He wanted it, and I wanted it. It has health benefits. There are "fundamentalist" Jewish strains just as there are in Christianity, Islam, and pretty much any other religion. I don't know if you are white, but let's just say that you are, and that you married someone who was Chinese, or some other cultural identity. You'd probably have the same type of cross-cultural issues. (See My Big Fat Greek Wedding.) Frankly, I think you need to get over it. You knew he was Jewish and Israeli when you married him, right? Maybe you didn't undertand what that entails, but you should have. So I'd suck it up and be less sensitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

Our pediatrician made the convincing case that this is not a good reason. Little boys' penises look nothing like grown mens'. No hair, etc. will your husband wax his pubes so his his penis looks like a child's?

I hope that your husband does not do this. However, as a woman, I can say that I prefer a circumcised penis, because it is what I am used to and what I know. Just like most men prefer women with shaved armpits. I encountered one uncut penis in my single days and actually ended the relationship, I simply wasn't into it. I'm putting my sons in the majority because like it or not, cultural norms matter.

Circumcised boys may not be your cultural norm, but they are ours.

The intact man you dumped is better off.

Maybe. He went back to Australia where I'm sure he was more comfortable looking like he did as he would have been in the vast majority, just like my husband and sons are here. People sugar coat it, but lots of women simply have preferences. It's okay to admit that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you need to separate the circumcision decision from the religion discussion. If you really don't want to do it, don't, but try to decipher why. Most boys in the US who are circumcised are not Jewish.

1000% this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, see the old threads on the medical benefits. Even in the developed world, there are some -- including less vulnerability to STDs and other infections. I could re-post the links, but they are easy to find. They aren't huge, but they are concrete benefits. No circumcised man I have know has ever seemed to have any kind of issue at all with not being sensitive enough down there.

I agree that you need to separate the issues with the circumcision with your issues with his family and Jewishness. I am not Jewish, and married to a Jewish man who is partly Israeli, but mostly secular. We circumcised. He wanted it, and I wanted it. It has health benefits. There are "fundamentalist" Jewish strains just as there are in Christianity, Islam, and pretty much any other religion. I don't know if you are white, but let's just say that you are, and that you married someone who was Chinese, or some other cultural identity. You'd probably have the same type of cross-cultural issues. (See My Big Fat Greek Wedding.) Frankly, I think you need to get over it. You knew he was Jewish and Israeli when you married him, right? Maybe you didn't undertand what that entails, but you should have. So I'd suck it up and be less sensitive.

Thank you, yes I knew. But just as I'm sure you'd have a learning curve with Chinese culture or whatever, I did too. I was not expecting to discover that there is a developed democratic country that prohibits marriage on the basis of religion. Honestly, it seems pretty intense to me. I have come round to the place of understanding a little bit better how some live with these cognitive dissonances, but that doesn't mean it is something that I have to accept if it goes against my values.