Circumcision/Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Convert married to a Jewish man here. Judaism in the US is a totally different animal than the Israeli experience. I understand and even identify with a lot of what you've said, while echoing what others have said about the Reform movement (and even parts of the Conservative movement) being a lot more opening and welcoming of 'inter-faith' (maybe inter-cultural in your case?) families. So please, try to hold off on painting with such a broad brush before exploring the continuum of American Judaism.

Re: circumcision
People have a lot of strong feelings on the issue, and we're all biased. It's a tough choice and it's great you're being thoughtful about it. Fathers often have a lot more psychological stuff wrapped up in the decision, and you should hear that out - as well as acknowledge that it's a pretty big deal as a cultural rite of passage for even many nonreligious Jews. Good luck - I hope you can reach a decision together.

Thanks, I understand that. To clarify, my husband doesn't really identify with American Judaism or seek a Jewish religious community here so it's likely not something my family would explore because of him. I myself don't have big stakes in "being Jewish." My personal view is that people seek out meaning for lots of different reasons, and in this case, that meaning would be tied to my relationships with my husband and his family and community. So their view of Judaism is what impacts my life directly, if that makes sense. I think it's wonderful that there are Reform/reconstructionist movements and am all for it, but it's just not something that will have bearing on what Judaism is in our lives for a number of reasons. I am intellectually curious about it as a human being & that's the extent of it.

I should have maybe put some of this into the original post but it seemed like it was complicated enough as it is. Thanks for the comment re: fathers' psychological stuff, will take that into account.

PP here. It's clear you're being really thoughtful about this, and considerate of your husband's perspective. A friend married a man somewhat like your husband - culturally Jewish but no interest in having a Jewish religious observance. They did not circumcise their son. MIL and Grand-MIL were pretty ridiculous about it. The decision belongs to the parents, not the extended family, but be prepared for that response (totally uncool, obviously), should you elect to not circumcise.

[Anonymous]

I think you need to separate the circumcision decision from the religion discussion. If you really don't want to do it, don't, but try to decipher why. Most boys in the US who are circumcised are not Jewish.

[Anonymous]

As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Convert married to a Jewish man here. Judaism in the US is a totally different animal than the Israeli experience. I understand and even identify with a lot of what you've said, while echoing what others have said about the Reform movement (and even parts of the Conservative movement) being a lot more opening and welcoming of 'inter-faith' (maybe inter-cultural in your case?) families. So please, try to hold off on painting with such a broad brush before exploring the continuum of American Judaism.

Re: circumcision
People have a lot of strong feelings on the issue, and we're all biased. It's a tough choice and it's great you're being thoughtful about it. Fathers often have a lot more psychological stuff wrapped up in the decision, and you should hear that out - as well as acknowledge that it's a pretty big deal as a cultural rite of passage for even many nonreligious Jews. Good luck - I hope you can reach a decision together.

Thanks, I understand that. To clarify, my husband doesn't really identify with American Judaism or seek a Jewish religious community here so it's likely not something my family would explore because of him. I myself don't have big stakes in "being Jewish." My personal view is that people seek out meaning for lots of different reasons, and in this case, that meaning would be tied to my relationships with my husband and his family and community. So their view of Judaism is what impacts my life directly, if that makes sense. I think it's wonderful that there are Reform/reconstructionist movements and am all for it, but it's just not something that will have bearing on what Judaism is in our lives for a number of reasons. I am intellectually curious about it as a human being & that's the extent of it.

I should have maybe put some of this into the original post but it seemed like it was complicated enough as it is. Thanks for the comment re: fathers' psychological stuff, will take that into account.

PP here. It's clear you're being really thoughtful about this, and considerate of your husband's perspective. A friend married a man somewhat like your husband - culturally Jewish but no interest in having a Jewish religious observance. They did not circumcise their son. MIL and Grand-MIL were pretty ridiculous about it. The decision belongs to the parents, not the extended family, but be prepared for that response (totally uncool, obviously), should you elect to not circumcise.

Haha... thank you, yes, I can't say I think it would be possible to prepare but I am aware there will be opinions from all sides! That's part of the reason I decided to risk hashing it out here, despite the controversy, because I don't want it to explode over Rosh Hashanah with the inlaws (for example).

Of course I also have friends who are very anti-circumcision and although I can sympathize with a lot of the thinking behind this, I hate that it's gotten so ideologically overdetermined on both sides. I am really looking for something that doesn't exist, I guess... for ex., people who say "yes, I talked to my ped and she sees a lot of uncircumcised boys with infections" or "I wish I hadn't done it because my son had to have his redone when he was 10 months old and I know a lot of people with similar stories" or "TBH, wiping poop off of an uncircumcised penis is a lot harder." Just some things that have to do with the experience of the child in his own body.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

[Anonymous]

OP, I think you're being very thoughtful about a difficult issue. Personally, I would tell my husband that I would prefer that my son not be circumcised, but that the ultimate decision would be his, and I would support him either way. I would make clear that it's because if we circumcised our son, it would be because of his religious background and cultural connections, and he's really the only one who can decide whether it's something that would be meaningful to him or just an empty ritual. If the latter, then I would prefer that my kid not be cut just for the sake of "tradition."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you need to separate the circumcision decision from the religion discussion. If you really don't want to do it, don't, but try to decipher why. Most boys in the US who are circumcised are not Jewish.

Yes, that's true. However the reasons I have heard from non-Jewish people who do it range from "circumcised penises look better" to "I want his to be like daddy's" and I don't really believe in pushing body appearance norms, especially since it's not really a norm any more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

It's actually pretty well-known why they said it. First, because it's true--it has some benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. But also because if they came out against it, the likely result would be that insurance companies would not cover the procedure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think you're being very thoughtful about a difficult issue. Personally, I would tell my husband that I would prefer that my son not be circumcised, but that the ultimate decision would be his, and I would support him either way. I would make clear that it's because if we circumcised our son, it would be because of his religious background and cultural connections, and he's really the only one who can decide whether it's something that would be meaningful to him or just an empty ritual. If the latter, then I would prefer that my kid not be cut just for the sake of "tradition."

Thank you. This is sound advice. I may have to take it, for my own sanity! I think he feels, like me, that ultimately it's not important enough as a thing in itself to affect our relationship. Which is why we've been going back and forth individually and together, because we both feel that way about each other and about religion, and the other data aren't really settling it.

Must say this discussion has been very helpful to me, because I've realized that it's the social and cultural feedback vs. the religious per se that I was feeling swayed by. But I actually don't believe we should do things like this just because other people do them and I don't want to pass that on to my child. Clarifying that to myself helps me face the imaginary disappointment of others. If they are going to feel that strongly about circumcision/Jewish identity or whatever they probably secretly think I'm a shiksa, so then why should I hope my son will be accepted for his circumcision?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm in a similar situation to yours, a non-Jew (raised Catholic) married to a Jewish man. My personal opinion is that you need to separate your feelings about Judaism generally from your feelings about circumcision, and then figure out how you feel about each of them independently. Right now, it sounds like you're preparing to use the circumcision decision as a battleground to fight about your husband's faith, and that's a really problematic way to a make a decision.

We decided to circumcise our son. If Judaism hadn't been a factor, I wouldn't have wanted to circumcise, but I respect circumcision's place in the Jewish faith and knew it was more important to my husband that he be circumcised than it was to me that he not be. I may have had an easier time coming to that decision, though, because my feelings on the Jewish faith are different than yours. Although I have not converted (and don't intend to, we are a happily interfaith family), I have found our Jewish community to be incredibly warm and welcoming to me and to our children. Perhaps trying a different temple with a focus might help you feel more at ease with welcoming Judaism into your family's life.

Another Catholic married to a Jewish man here - but we opted not to have either of our sons circumcised. Neither of us saw any reason to circumcise, religious, medical, or otherwise.

We are both fine with our decision. Our sons are now 19 and 16, and neither has ever had any issue with being "different" or any medical issue of any kind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think you're being very thoughtful about a difficult issue. Personally, I would tell my husband that I would prefer that my son not be circumcised, but that the ultimate decision would be his, and I would support him either way. I would make clear that it's because if we circumcised our son, it would be because of his religious background and cultural connections, and he's really the only one who can decide whether it's something that would be meaningful to him or just an empty ritual. If the latter, then I would prefer that my kid not be cut just for the sake of "tradition."

Thank you. This is sound advice. I may have to take it, for my own sanity! I think he feels, like me, that ultimately it's not important enough as a thing in itself to affect our relationship. Which is why we've been going back and forth individually and together, because we both feel that way about each other and about religion, and the other data aren't really settling it.

Must say this discussion has been very helpful to me, because I've realized that it's the social and cultural feedback vs. the religious per se that I was feeling swayed by. But I actually don't believe we should do things like this just because other people do them and I don't want to pass that on to my child. Clarifying that to myself helps me face the imaginary disappointment of others. If they are going to feel that strongly about circumcision/Jewish identity or whatever they probably secretly think I'm a shiksa, so then why should I hope my son will be accepted for his circumcision?

This really has nothing to do with your child or circumcision but has more to do with the religion of your husband and your feelings. Jews in Isreal are very different from Jews in the US. There are many Jews who do not like mixed marriages but many of us are in them. You need to be honest with your husband and tell him you are not comfortable with him practicing Judaism in your home (your, not his) and you need to tell him that you will not circumcise your child and that child will be exclusively practicing your religion. Problem solved.

(in all reality your child is mixed. Many will consider him Jewish. It may be uncomfortable if Dad ever takes him to Isreal and he doesn't identify with being Jewish around his paternal family. Smart thing to do is to find the best of both worlds in your home and practice both and expose the child to the best of both religions).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a cut man and my son is intact. And it doesn't matter.

Honestly, 'my son's genitals should look like mine' is one of the creepiest and most bizarre concepts I've heard.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

It's actually pretty well-known why they said it. First, because it's true--it has some benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. But also because if they came out against it, the likely result would be that insurance companies would not cover the procedure.

The insurance thing makes sense. The other part just seems so weird. If the benefits outweigh the risks, then it's a beneficial procedure and you'd think that many more parents would be in your camp of wanting the best medical risk profile for their child overall. What's comparable to this, medically, in terms of procedures that are good for infants but not routinely recommended? I can't think of anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

Probably.

Both my ob-gyn and our pediatrician were against it. The ob-gyn commented that she has seen circumcisions done badly or botched completely and that the effects of that are terrible - that like any surgery, it is not risk-free.

She would not do it for ethical reasons and told me that if we wanted it, we would need to find someone else to do it.