We're worried about our son and our grandchildren

[Anonymous]

Holy f&ck I would be pissed if I was child #1.

You seriously have never had the conversation..."Mom, the reason #2 doesn't work is because you bail him out"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is #1 being criticized so harshly here? OP hasn't specified what she's meant by "help" - so it's hard to know whether his issues with OP and #2 are justified. We also don't know how he'd respond to saying "that's it." He may very well be perfectly capable of financial independence - indeed it sounds like he largely is.

If #1 whines about being "cut off" he's not so "noble." But I'd give him the benefit of the doubt from what I've heard. Why not take him at his word when he say he's received enough? How often do you see #1? Or talk to him on the phone even? It sounds like you're with #2 almost every single day.

#2 sounds hopeless though.

Agree. #1 has a teachers' salary + 40K trust income, that's enough. He'll be fine. Be encouraging and supportive of their efforts to have children.

Help #2 find any career path and end "parenting the parents." Even with the 40K it sounds like they have enough "perks" - I think it's good for him to find something. It'll be hard to explain to his son that he "doesn't work and lives off Grandmpa and Grandpa." He can't be too choosy now.

Of course continue to spend time with your GC. But you need some distance from them.

[Anonymous]

Have an HONEST conversation about your financial situation and retirement plans with both of your children. And stop "topping up" #2 and his wife beyond the 40K they're already getting.

[Anonymous]

Take #1's suggestion, leave everything to the grandchildren or charity or something else.

[Anonymous]

Be blunt. Let DIL know that she hasn't "won the lottery" by marrying into your family and not to expect to inherit millions in about 20 years.

Surely #2 and DIL won't prevent from seeing your GC.

[Anonymous]

I also call troll. So many details in the OP, most of which are hardly necessary.

A creative writing exercise.

[Anonymous]

I would not leave everything to the grandchildren with some string attached either. If they grow up knowing there is a trust fund and with their parents as "role models", they will end up just the same.

[Anonymous]

Lots of good advice here that I won't add to, but will add one thing about inheritance that happened in my family and worked well. Grandmother helped out one child by paying for a home, vehicle(s), assisting with grandchild's college, etc. In the will she specified that the child that received no help would get a certain amount more than the other child due to all the help over the years. It was clearly spelled out in the will and both children thought it was equitable given the circumstances and no hard feelings resulted from the disparity in inheritance amounts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To clarify, the time share in Colorado is ours (we want it - though of course sometimes our children and extended family are sometimes invited) and we're "reclaiming" #2's condo in SF for us.

We're proud of #1 for pursuing a "noble" independent path, and of course we're happy to help him out when he needs it since he doesn't make that much money. But the paradox is he resents us for "favoring" #2 but says he doesn't actually want that same treatment for himself. Isn't that trying to have it both ways?

How can we "cut off" #2 without cutting off #1 though?

Why does everyone know everyone else's business? Is #1 running to #2 when he gets money from you? How would #2 know? Of course #1 feels like you are favoring #2- you are! Maybe since all your kids live above their means, you need to just give them more every year. I feel sorry for both your kids.

[Anonymous]

Start college funds for the grandkids. If there are school activities or extra curriculars which you can occassionally pay for directly -- do that. Give them gifts on birthdays and Christmas.
As for your son, he's a grown ass man. You are enabling him so he keeps forgetting he's supposed to act like a grown ass man.
Why in the world would you buy 2 houses for him. I know you love him, but you are crippling him. Just.stop.now.

[Anonymous]

Raising children with no work ethic is a terrible thing to do. Your spinelessness created this problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To clarify, the time share in Colorado is ours (we want it - though of course sometimes our children and extended family are sometimes invited) and we're "reclaiming" #2's condo in SF for us.

We're proud of #1 for pursuing a "noble" independent path, and of course we're happy to help him out when he needs it since he doesn't make that much money. But the paradox is he resents us for "favoring" #2 but says he doesn't actually want that same treatment for himself. Isn't that trying to have it both ways?

How can we "cut off" #2 without cutting off #1 though?

Your real problem is that you think it's fine to permanently supplement your children's incomes. Please realize that this creates all sorts of unhealthy relationships and stunts the growth (in resilience and responsibility) of your children.

Apparently, choosing a noble career path "justifies" having a few perks from you. It shouldn't!
DC1 isn't turning the help down, is he? So his job isn't all that noble, is it? He might not even have considered this path if you hadn't shown your willingness to fund a more luxurious life for him.
And then, DC1 feels guilty because his inactivity is somehow unworthy of receiving financial help??? That's ridiculous, because DC1 shouldn't be helped either.

My husband works in cancer research. He earns less than 6 figures with an MD and a PhD. He's saving future lives, and obviously isn't in it for the money. Our parents are not helping us, even though they could. We have enough to live on with our 2 children. Frugally. We prioritize education and culture. We are happy.

You have created a vicious cycle, and whatever you decide, it will be drama now or drama later. Pick your poison.

OP here. I don't expect Horatio Algers. Nor do I think our children should be completely, 100% "cut off" or else be condemned as sinful ingrates by the likes of you.

We have no problem leaving aside some money for our children and grandchildren and help them from time to time.

Surely there's a middle ground here.

Take your 100% "tough love" attitude elsewhere. I'm sure your husband has no shoes and ha to walk 5 miles to work every day in the snow, all in the name of "helping humanity" and not being dependent on anyone. Nice platitudes, but it's not helpful here.

I must have hit a nerve, OP!

You're right, there can be a middle ground among reasonable people. But here nobody's reasonable, except perhaps your oldest son (who is sweet-talking but still accepts your money).
Your children have become used to depending on you because you created this dependency, so now the middle ground does not exist.

You should have a family meeting:
1. Announce a series of donations of receding value for the next ten years. At the end of this period, they will have to stand on their own. Telling them in advance how much to expect annually for the next ten years gives them the opportunity to create their own budget and make their own plans, and eases the transition from their present dependency to real adulthood. It is uplifting, not demeaning, for them.
2. Announce that your will benefits the grandchildren exclusively, not your children. That will incentivize their efforts to become financially secure within that span of 10 years.
3. Accept that "financially secure" will mean a working (or at best a lower middle class) income for your second son's family, when he and his wife get their act together.
4. The real secret to life is that a reasonable amount of hardship and frustration makes you more resilient. You have to let your children take risks and live by their mistakes, otherwise this normal developmental process cannot happen, and they will always be weaklings, and will not be good role models for their children. Since you created the monster, it's your responsibility to try to make up for it... by helping them to become adults, not perpetuating the enabling.

[Anonymous]

OP here.

We haven't given #1 money in about 5 years and it wasn't all that much (about 5K). Of course when he visits us or we visit him we pay for restaurant meals, maybe go to the theater etc.

Their late grandfather set up trust funds for all of his grandchildren, that's where the 40K comes in (so we're technically not "giving him the money.") 40K is certainly a nice boost/floor - but since it's distributed annually it can't be spent on a "Paris Hilton" lifestyle. He also believed that they should be able feel free to pursue the career of their choice, even if it didn't pay as much, and enjoy a vacation every now and then.

Compared to my in-laws (refugees from Nazi Germany), we've all had it easy!

I guess we should have told my father-in-law that this was a bad idea, but he died in 1988.

#1 he knows perfectly well we'd pay for him to fly out and visit us in CA - but he doesn't want to come visit! He says he loves us but he can't stand to have #2 "rubbing his lifestyle" in his face. But he knows that we'd do the same for him if he really needed it.

However #1 went to a private LAC 100% paid for by 50/50 by parents and grandparents, while #2's education was a lot less expensive (at a state school). So we've probably given more to #1 over time when we take college into account.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fortunately, our older son is not much of a "burden." We paid for all of his college (a LAC) and grad school and helped him buy a place in DC (bought in a very "up and coming" area when it wasn't very expensive and did well). He's a teacher, very socially conscientious and an all-round good person with good values. Do they live in a place that's beyond what most at their income would make? Yes - but that's not a problem. At least they're generally appreciative and don't expect to always piggyback off us!

#1's wife (DIL 1) would make an excellent mother but can't conceive. So they've been trying adoption or surrogacy - both fraught with difficulties!

But #1 seems to have a lot of resentment towards #2 - I think he feels less loved especially since the grandchildren were born. I think they feel it's unfair they can't have children like they've long wanted and that the "#2s" can "just pop out children" (to put it crudely). He also thinks they are spoiled and entitled!

#1 has even insisted: I've benefited immensely enough, and you don't need to leave me money. Leave it to grandchildren, for college, to a good cause, to hardworking cousins who are struggling etc. I appreciate the noble sentiment but let's see where things are at in the future.

I remind though that he doesn't want to trade places with #2 (and he certainly agrees). #2 is unhappy and feels greatly ashamed.

It's kind of unfair to leave both sons different amounts though because we don't want to "play favorites".

Your #1 has a good head on his shoulders, and he's absolutely correct that his younger brother and SIL are spoiled and entitled. Which you have created and enabled and continue to reinforce.

You will be a horrible, horrible, horrible person if you leave them anything other than equal amounts. Really, though, I would suggest that you tell both sons that you are leaving your money to charity. Your #1 will understand and support that. And maybe, maybe, it will give #2 a chance to make something of his life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again: Especially because we don't want to "cut off" #2 - we love the time we spend together. We just feel that we can't completely substain their lifestyle.

The condos in DC are in the same building. Our own children grew up down the street from their paternal grandparents and it was wonderful.

No one is saying "cut off" #2, as in don't spend time with him. Spend plenty of time with him. Just stop subsidizing his lifestyle.

You do know that people manage to spend time with their children and grandchildren without spending any money or supporting them financially, right? Like, I haven't taken a dollar from my parents since I was 20 years old, but I still see them all the time. I spend lots of time with my aunts and uncles and have never gotten money from them. You simply say, "Son2, it's time for you and your wife to support yourselves." Period. It's really, really simple.