Terrified and depressed due to downward mobility

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because I grew up UMC, it is really sad and depressing for me to be middle class/lower middle class financially as a mid thirties woman. I make 110k and my husband makes 100k or so. I feel myself sliding into the dreaded MC life and it terrifies me. I always assumed I’d be upwardly mobile.

$200 000+/per annum not middle Class. Middle class us $50,000/per annum.

Actually this depends on the number of people in the household.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are either stupid or lazy AF. We only make 150k combined but have 2 houses, 1 a rental and live very comfortably with plenty in savings and money set aside for retirement and college. Our kids are in 2 sports and we make out fine. Now, we do not eat out much, make impulse spending mistakes or spends thousands on clothes. We do vacation to fun spots but not mega budget busters like Europe or beyond. We are saving to go to Europe next year hough and it will not break our bank. You have to be smart and humble.

Not OP but much of this is dependent on location, and there are people who move to HCOL areas thinking their salaries will go up as they gain seniority, but then stagnate and they get priced out. I'm guessing you live in a LCOL area, or maybe moved to your area when real estate was much cheaper and now have cheap mortgages that make your income feasible.

I do agree with you that you have to budget properly and live within your means, but that's not really what OP is talking about. She's not saying "we go out to eat 5 nights a week and take expensive vacations but feel very poor because we can't actually afford those things." She's just saying she feels middle class after growing up UMC and it's a bad feeling. Likely there were things her parents afforded when she was a kid that now she can't afford or give to her own kids, and that's a bad feeling. It doesn't mean she lives outside her means, in fact it indicates she lives within her means but knows what it's like to have more means and that dissonance is where the unhappiness comes in.

Nothing like knowing exactly what you're missing to make it harder to be grateful for what you have, even when you have a lot compared to most people. Thus the psychological problem of downward mobility.

[Anonymous]

hang out on the Mr Money Mustache forum

Eliminate 1 car

Move to a cheaper cost of living area

Get clothing at thrift stores

Sidework

[Anonymous]

New poster here. I literally never talk about this kind of stuff with friends, ever, but last the other night I told a good friend of mine (I had too many drinks in me) that I was very proud of my 30-something son-in-law who had recently overcome some pretty significant obstacles in landing a new job where he and my daughter are now earning a combined $300k plus. They have one toddler and hope to have another and they live in the DMV. My friends insisted that that made them no higher than lower middle or middle middle class for this area. I pushed back, then they suggested that their perspective may be skewed because they associate with a lot of Biglaw attorneys. Of course, I shouldn’t have opened my big mouth at all and really wasn’t doing it to brag. I was just proud of and impressed by the guy, who has a compelling life story.

In any event, you’re not gonna convince me that a middle middle class family in the DMV brings in $300k plus.

[Anonymous]

NP. My main concern is the cost of paying for college for multiple kids, preferably at the schools that they want to attend. I know things could be a lot worse, though. If nothing else, they could attend locally while living at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if OP is trolling or not, but I do actually feel this way. We make less money, though -- 150k (DH 100k, me 50k). I used to make more but the reality of trying to parent kids while you both work was overwhelming. We already had no margin for error because even with an income around 200k, childcare was tight. And then Covid hit. So now I work part time and we pay less for childcare, but have a little more flexibility in our schedule. But yes, money is very tight. We've pretty much given up on the idea that we'll ever own a SFH (we live in a condo now) or feel comfortable financially.

I have a graduate degree and DH is in a STEM field with an Ivy League degree. I grew up UMC and he grew up working class, and while we've far surpassed his economic status as a kid, it's definitely been a step down for me. We've both struggle with our mental health and while there is a version of us that makes WAY more money without working that much harder, I think we just lack the confidence and social skills to make it happen? I feel overwhelmed a lot. I don't know, but I do feel downwardly mobile and can relate to the anxiety OP is galling about.

It’s wild to me how much we now require people to “hustle” to have middle class lives in major metros. My grandfather was a teacher. Supported Grandma and sent 3 kids to college.

Owned a modest ranch home in a major metro, worked part time in the summers, good healthcare, nice pension, traveled in his retirement, had enough to pay for very nice assisted living accommodations in his 80s.

Never owned fancy things (or cared) but good quality of life.

Now, his life is elite.

How many tvs did they own and how often did they buy a new car, eat out, take vacations that involved airline and hotels, pay for education/tutoring/travel sports, media, etc? Mine had one tv with an antenna (three channels), radios with a record player, never used outside help, bought two cars and held on to them until they were junk, sent us to public, etc. Pension yes middle class yes but "elite" lifestyle, no way.

I'm the PP at the top of this chain and I just wanted to note that we have one TV and it is almost 15 years old. We have one car and just replaced it (old one was 14 years old and the "new" one is a used 2019). We mostly take vacations that don't involve airlines and no one in our family is travel sports or has a tutor for anything.

I say this not to complain, but to say that the assumption that middle class people to day have all that stuff is not accurate, especially in the DMV. In a LCOL area where you can buy a 4 bedroom house for 250k, maybe -- people there will have a lot more disposable income. But they'll usually also make a lot less.

But on top of all that, we don't have a SAHP, a SFH (even a modest one), or a pension on the way. We have just two kids and while I love my kids more than anything, I sometimes wonder if it was irresponsible to have the second because college costs terrify me.

So the PP's grandfather's lifestyle, on a teacher's salary and pension, actually sounds significantly more stable and luxurious than how we live. We have no margin for error at all. Maybe I was naive, but it came as a surprise to me because my parents were able to build modest wealth via pretty regular jobs and some fortunate real estate purchases. It feels like our margins are much slimmer than those of prior generations.

I would guess you aren't very knowledgeable about money. Did you get degrees that weren't very marketable? Did you have children at a young age? I agree with a pp. Your parents probably didn't waste money like you do. I've lived in two very expensive neighborhoods and in each we had a few rental houses and thru our kids I got to know the families. Instead of picking a modest home or th to rent, they went to one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the area. They didn't try to save money to afford a home. We have so many people now who think they deserve everything they see on the Real Housewives show just because. I think there are more people who "fake front" and blow money stupidly because they feel they deserve whatever they want right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. My main concern is the cost of paying for college for multiple kids, preferably at the schools that they want to attend. I know things could be a lot worse, though. If nothing else, they could attend locally while living at home.

One of my biggest fears is that my kids are going to have to work really hard for an overall lower standard of living, because that seems to be the direction our country is headed in.

Millennials are the first generation facing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the middle class are in food lines is the political game plan to shame them by how much worse other people have it?

The plan, per usual, is to pretend they don’t exist. They’ve done this with the homeless, disabled veterans, and drug addicts. Next will be the working class and the middle class and anyone who doesn’t use “summer” as a verb.

Do you not have a clue how ridiculous you are? Food lines? What a joke. Get off your axxes and go get a job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if OP is trolling or not, but I do actually feel this way. We make less money, though -- 150k (DH 100k, me 50k). I used to make more but the reality of trying to parent kids while you both work was overwhelming. We already had no margin for error because even with an income around 200k, childcare was tight. And then Covid hit. So now I work part time and we pay less for childcare, but have a little more flexibility in our schedule. But yes, money is very tight. We've pretty much given up on the idea that we'll ever own a SFH (we live in a condo now) or feel comfortable financially.

I have a graduate degree and DH is in a STEM field with an Ivy League degree. I grew up UMC and he grew up working class, and while we've far surpassed his economic status as a kid, it's definitely been a step down for me. We've both struggle with our mental health and while there is a version of us that makes WAY more money without working that much harder, I think we just lack the confidence and social skills to make it happen? I feel overwhelmed a lot. I don't know, but I do feel downwardly mobile and can relate to the anxiety OP is galling about.

Op here. This is how I feel too. On one hand there is shame in not being able to replicate my parents success even though I was given all the opportunities and resources. Then there’s the depressing realization that we will ever be able to buy a SFH in a good neighborhood around here and I’ll never have the quality of life I grew up with or give my kids the same experiences.

A lot of people grow up and don’t become wealthy like their parents. My in-laws Ivy League, very wealthy. Not us though and it doesn’t bother us in the least. We are lucky that they are the most generous and kindness people in the world. He retired early and bought us a house, gifting every year, paid for all activities and tuitions for our kids, not just monetarily, they are also there for their children. They are proud of their children, none went to Ivy League or reached their level of financial success.

If your parents are wealthy hopefully they can help with the kids. Just don’t try and be something you’re not. Don’t overreach and buy in a neighborhood you can’t afford. If you stop feeling sorry for yourself your kids will have their own childhood, not a replica of yours.

If your ILs bought you a home, you are wealthy. They'll probably also help with kid's education, right? So all you and your husband need to do is make enough money to cover living expense (minus mortgage) and save for retirement. That would be so easy.

Not all UMC or wealthy parents are generous like that, either. You are lucky, but you need to understand how unusual your situation is. You're in a really ideal situation.

x10000

Seems the norm around here that grandparents pay for their kids' houses and education, and their grandchildrens' houses and education. Holy crap - you people who have that are completely out of touch and only expect more - if you were my kids, I would donate every penny to a charity that actually needs it.

My kids grandparents only play favorites. It is sickening. I can't fathom having such generous people in our lives. Just wow.

It isn't the norm. I've known 2 people who had help paying for a home. The vast majority of the people I know, scrimped and saved and didn't blow money stupidly because they knew homeownership was expensive and important. They did without to buy a townhome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if OP is trolling or not, but I do actually feel this way. We make less money, though -- 150k (DH 100k, me 50k). I used to make more but the reality of trying to parent kids while you both work was overwhelming. We already had no margin for error because even with an income around 200k, childcare was tight. And then Covid hit. So now I work part time and we pay less for childcare, but have a little more flexibility in our schedule. But yes, money is very tight. We've pretty much given up on the idea that we'll ever own a SFH (we live in a condo now) or feel comfortable financially.

I have a graduate degree and DH is in a STEM field with an Ivy League degree. I grew up UMC and he grew up working class, and while we've far surpassed his economic status as a kid, it's definitely been a step down for me. We've both struggle with our mental health and while there is a version of us that makes WAY more money without working that much harder, I think we just lack the confidence and social skills to make it happen? I feel overwhelmed a lot. I don't know, but I do feel downwardly mobile and can relate to the anxiety OP is galling about.

It’s wild to me how much we now require people to “hustle” to have middle class lives in major metros. My grandfather was a teacher. Supported Grandma and sent 3 kids to college.

Owned a modest ranch home in a major metro, worked part time in the summers, good healthcare, nice pension, traveled in his retirement, had enough to pay for very nice assisted living accommodations in his 80s.

Never owned fancy things (or cared) but good quality of life.

Now, his life is elite.

Cost of living has greatly exceeded pay, for the current generation. Everything - college, homes, everything was relatively cheaper. I don't think Boomers have any idea how good they had it.

People who graduated in the early 80’s faced high unemployment rates and 18% mortgage rates. People a little bit older faced civil unrest and Vietnam where 50,000 of their peers were killed in swampy jungles.

Put it in perspective.

Thank you! I had a hard time getting a job even though I had a stem degree. I moved from a small Southern town to this area to get a job. I could barely survive on my starting salary and afford an apartment. Housing prices were insane then relative to our salaries. Only the young married people could afford to buy and they had to buy a townhome in the outer outer suburbs. No one at the blue chip company I worked for had kids in private school. No one vacationed in Hawaii or Europe. There is just an expectation now of having everything immediately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We're all working to stay out of poverty. I fear homelessness and poverty. My rent is now nearly 50% of my income. My credit rating is excellen at 807. Yet I could only qualify for an 8% rate on a car loan. A better rate of 6% made the difference of $6 a month. In the past, I would pay 0% on a 3 year car loan for a Toyota Corolla or similar car.

It's not your imagination OP.

It's inflation thrusting many of us into a completely different class.

It's very real and very frightening. I have always suspected certain leaders want only a few wealthy people and very many poor people.

Where are you renting? Is it a house or an apt?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because I grew up UMC, it is really sad and depressing for me to be middle class/lower middle class financially as a mid thirties woman. I make 110k and my husband makes 100k or so. I feel myself sliding into the dreaded MC life and it terrifies me. I always assumed I’d be upwardly mobile.

$200 000+/per annum not middle Class. Middle class us $50,000/per annum.

Actually this depends on the number of people in the household.

And the cost of living in your specific area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if OP is trolling or not, but I do actually feel this way. We make less money, though -- 150k (DH 100k, me 50k). I used to make more but the reality of trying to parent kids while you both work was overwhelming. We already had no margin for error because even with an income around 200k, childcare was tight. And then Covid hit. So now I work part time and we pay less for childcare, but have a little more flexibility in our schedule. But yes, money is very tight. We've pretty much given up on the idea that we'll ever own a SFH (we live in a condo now) or feel comfortable financially.

I have a graduate degree and DH is in a STEM field with an Ivy League degree. I grew up UMC and he grew up working class, and while we've far surpassed his economic status as a kid, it's definitely been a step down for me. We've both struggle with our mental health and while there is a version of us that makes WAY more money without working that much harder, I think we just lack the confidence and social skills to make it happen? I feel overwhelmed a lot. I don't know, but I do feel downwardly mobile and can relate to the anxiety OP is galling about.

Op here. This is how I feel too. On one hand there is shame in not being able to replicate my parents success even though I was given all the opportunities and resources. Then there’s the depressing realization that we will ever be able to buy a SFH in a good neighborhood around here and I’ll never have the quality of life I grew up with or give my kids the same experiences.

A lot of people grow up and don’t become wealthy like their parents. My in-laws Ivy League, very wealthy. Not us though and it doesn’t bother us in the least. We are lucky that they are the most generous and kindness people in the world. He retired early and bought us a house, gifting every year, paid for all activities and tuitions for our kids, not just monetarily, they are also there for their children. They are proud of their children, none went to Ivy League or reached their level of financial success.

If your parents are wealthy hopefully they can help with the kids. Just don’t try and be something you’re not. Don’t overreach and buy in a neighborhood you can’t afford. If you stop feeling sorry for yourself your kids will have their own childhood, not a replica of yours.

If your ILs bought you a home, you are wealthy. They'll probably also help with kid's education, right? So all you and your husband need to do is make enough money to cover living expense (minus mortgage) and save for retirement. That would be so easy.

Not all UMC or wealthy parents are generous like that, either. You are lucky, but you need to understand how unusual your situation is. You're in a really ideal situation.

x10000

Seems the norm around here that grandparents pay for their kids' houses and education, and their grandchildrens' houses and education. Holy crap - you people who have that are completely out of touch and only expect more - if you were my kids, I would donate every penny to a charity that actually needs it.

My kids grandparents only play favorites. It is sickening. I can't fathom having such generous people in our lives. Just wow.

It isn't the norm. I've known 2 people who had help paying for a home. The vast majority of the people I know, scrimped and saved and didn't blow money stupidly because they knew homeownership was expensive and important. They did without to buy a townhome.

Are you sure? I used to think "everyone" saved for a down payment like we did, and that people who bought bigger, nicer, more expensive homes just saved harder.

I later found out that many of them had huge sums of money from parents to buy those homes. In the last few years I've learned that half or more of our peer group friends had major cash infusions in the form of cash gifts or inheritances that enabled them to buy their first homes. Not everyone, but at least half. I'd say it's a major factor in how some people were able to by SFHs (including close in row houses) that appreciated aggressively, versus suburban townhomes or condos that didn't appreciate as well. It also enabled people to structure loans in a more favorable way. I know one couple who saved their own downpayment but received a 10k gift from their parents every year after that to put towards the principle on their loan, so 8 years later they wound up in a much more favorable position in terms of equity and were able to upgrade to a much bigger home with really favorable loan terms. Which would not have been possible without the 70k in free cash from their parents.

None of this may be "typical" but it's not uncommon among the children of UMC families in this area. People don't always advertise this stuff and I've known people who actively concealed it (i.e. complained endlessly about the challenges of affording a home and how hard they were saving, when in reality their down payment came mostly from an inheritance). For some reason a lot of people like to kind of cosplay as middle class or make it appear to others that they are making it on their own when in reality they get enormous amounts of help from family. I've seen it many times in this area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't you move? I don't get staying in the area if you can't affording housing, etc.

Not OP but in similar boat (less income, but with a kid) and we would very much like to move. Currently DH's job is tied to the area with now fully remote option. I have moved into a fully remote job over the last few years to prepare us for a move. But it's not like it's super easy to just relocate. We are in our 40s with a child, we have tons of connections to this area after going to school and then living here for over two decades. I'm still not convinced my DH won't get cold feet, and I have nerves myself. Our families are both very dysfunctional and live in extremely remote places, so the option of just moving closer to them isn't really on the table, though we are considering a city about 4 hours from his family. Figuring out how to move his job is going to be tricky and there's a strong chance he'll basically need to shift industries if we move, since what he does isn't really a thing in most LCOL areas.

We have to juggle jobs, schools, some connection to the community, making new friends and networks in our 40s. Our kid has a hobby that is important to them -- I have to make sure they can still do that in some capacity.

What people don't get is that as recently as 10-15 years ago, DC was considered a LCOL alternative to NY/LA/SF. Some of us chose it over NY or LA (I did) specifically because our money went further here and we could see building a family here after college or grad school in a way we couldn't see those other places. But then a couple poorly timed layoffs, some shifts in our industry, and Covid, and here we are living in a city that is honestly too pricy for us but at a stage in life where just picking up and moving somewhere else is much easier said than done.

"Just move" sounds obvious but if it were that easy, everyone would just do it.

We all know it is not easy and face the same issues. If you want to improve your life, be an adult and make the hard decisions. DC has been more affordable than NY, LA and SF but it was never considered a lcol area and now it is too much for you. I remember in the 60s or 70s the housing shortage was insane in this area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:hang out on the Mr Money Mustache forum

Eliminate 1 car

Move to a cheaper cost of living area

Get clothing at thrift stores

Sidework

Don't you get it. They aren't going to do any of this. Because they grew up privileged and had it, they are owed it now without working for it.