Terrified and depressed due to downward mobility

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Relocate people. There are companies in lower cost of living areas.

And the pay is usually lower in those areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't you move? I don't get staying in the area if you can't affording housing, etc.

Not OP but in similar boat (less income, but with a kid) and we would very much like to move. Currently DH's job is tied to the area with now fully remote option. I have moved into a fully remote job over the last few years to prepare us for a move. But it's not like it's super easy to just relocate. We are in our 40s with a child, we have tons of connections to this area after going to school and then living here for over two decades. I'm still not convinced my DH won't get cold feet, and I have nerves myself. Our families are both very dysfunctional and live in extremely remote places, so the option of just moving closer to them isn't really on the table, though we are considering a city about 4 hours from his family. Figuring out how to move his job is going to be tricky and there's a strong chance he'll basically need to shift industries if we move, since what he does isn't really a thing in most LCOL areas.

We have to juggle jobs, schools, some connection to the community, making new friends and networks in our 40s. Our kid has a hobby that is important to them -- I have to make sure they can still do that in some capacity.

What people don't get is that as recently as 10-15 years ago, DC was considered a LCOL alternative to NY/LA/SF. Some of us chose it over NY or LA (I did) specifically because our money went further here and we could see building a family here after college or grad school in a way we couldn't see those other places. But then a couple poorly timed layoffs, some shifts in our industry, and Covid, and here we are living in a city that is honestly too pricy for us but at a stage in life where just picking up and moving somewhere else is much easier said than done.

"Just move" sounds obvious but if it were that easy, everyone would just do it.

We moved our family of four out of the DMV to a lower COL a couple years ago. To say you can't move with what appears to be your moveable job is not true. It is work, however, and it's scary. But, it's completely doable.

While DC may have been - or is - lower COL than NY/LA/SF, it certainly felt expensive 10-15 years ago.

PP here, and I see now that I have a typo in my post. My DH's job is tied to this area and he has NO fully remote options even with taking a pay cut. Not "now fully remote option." So in order for us to move, he must change jobs and potentially industries because his work is so tied to government activity here. We are actively looking at options but need to decide on a destination that makes sense for his job/career and we've had a difficult time finding a good fit, especially with no obvious options linked to family or where we went to college, because we both went to college and grad school here. When we move, it will truly be just dropping into a new city with few if any contacts (maybe a couple friends, but maybe not). Plus new job for him at a hard time in his career to make a major career shift.

I'm not saying we won't do it. I'm saying the "just move" people are being pretty cavalier about what that actually means when you've made a life for yourself in a specific area over two decades and don't have anywhere else to go that seems like an obvious choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2023/middle-class-income/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2023/middle-class-income/

For perspective

Op here. That calculator says we are middle middle class for where we live.

So if you’re middle class for where you live, did you grow up in the same place or elsewhere? If the latter, what happens when you put in that location with your income? Still middle class? And where does this calculator put you in relation to everyone else? Are you in the top 5%? Top 10%?

I’m not trying to give you flak, OP. Just trying to offer some perspective that might help you feel less terrified and depressed, which are the words you used. My husband was feeling down too and then he found this calculator. He said it gave him a sense of perspective that was very helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2023/middle-class-income/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2023/middle-class-income/

For perspective

Op here. That calculator says we are middle middle class for where we live.

Move out of the Hamptons

[Anonymous]

Real wage growth has been stagnant since the early 1970s despite huge gains in productivity and corporate profit. People with capital to buy real estate have seen huge gains as have those with investments in stock market and those who share more directly in corporate profit. Tax laws that seems radically in a conservative sense in the 1980/ would now seem left of Bernie Sanders so all those corporate profits go back into the top earners and shareholders. Meanwhile college healthcare and housing have risen sharply. The top few percent have increased their wealth significantly while the rest have seen their economic power stay stagnant or decline.
My parents sent two of us to Ivy League schools and had a 4 bedroom home on one professors salary in Southern California. To replicate that lifestyle our Hhi would now need to be about 600k (it’s not). This is ultimately unsustainable politically and socially.

“A startling fact is that average real wages have grown by only 0.7 percent over the half century beginning in February 1973. In February 2022 dollars, wages have grown over this period by $0.18. There is no question that an $0.18 increase over a half century is correctly interpreted as stagnant”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if OP is trolling or not, but I do actually feel this way. We make less money, though -- 150k (DH 100k, me 50k). I used to make more but the reality of trying to parent kids while you both work was overwhelming. We already had no margin for error because even with an income around 200k, childcare was tight. And then Covid hit. So now I work part time and we pay less for childcare, but have a little more flexibility in our schedule. But yes, money is very tight. We've pretty much given up on the idea that we'll ever own a SFH (we live in a condo now) or feel comfortable financially.

I have a graduate degree and DH is in a STEM field with an Ivy League degree. I grew up UMC and he grew up working class, and while we've far surpassed his economic status as a kid, it's definitely been a step down for me. We've both struggle with our mental health and while there is a version of us that makes WAY more money without working that much harder, I think we just lack the confidence and social skills to make it happen? I feel overwhelmed a lot. I don't know, but I do feel downwardly mobile and can relate to the anxiety OP is galling about.

It’s wild to me how much we now require people to “hustle” to have middle class lives in major metros. My grandfather was a teacher. Supported Grandma and sent 3 kids to college.

Owned a modest ranch home in a major metro, worked part time in the summers, good healthcare, nice pension, traveled in his retirement, had enough to pay for very nice assisted living accommodations in his 80s.

Never owned fancy things (or cared) but good quality of life.

Now, his life is elite.

How many tvs did they own and how often did they buy a new car, eat out, take vacations that involved airline and hotels, pay for education/tutoring/travel sports, media, etc? Mine had one tv with an antenna (three channels), radios with a record player, never used outside help, bought two cars and held on to them until they were junk, sent us to public, etc. Pension yes middle class yes but "elite" lifestyle, no way.

I'm the PP at the top of this chain and I just wanted to note that we have one TV and it is almost 15 years old. We have one car and just replaced it (old one was 14 years old and the "new" one is a used 2019). We mostly take vacations that don't involve airlines and no one in our family is travel sports or has a tutor for anything.

I say this not to complain, but to say that the assumption that middle class people to day have all that stuff is not accurate, especially in the DMV. In a LCOL area where you can buy a 4 bedroom house for 250k, maybe -- people there will have a lot more disposable income. But they'll usually also make a lot less.

But on top of all that, we don't have a SAHP, a SFH (even a modest one), or a pension on the way. We have just two kids and while I love my kids more than anything, I sometimes wonder if it was irresponsible to have the second because college costs terrify me.

So the PP's grandfather's lifestyle, on a teacher's salary and pension, actually sounds significantly more stable and luxurious than how we live. We have no margin for error at all. Maybe I was naive, but it came as a surprise to me because my parents were able to build modest wealth via pretty regular jobs and some fortunate real estate purchases. It feels like our margins are much slimmer than those of prior generations.

How do you know they had more room for error? When you were a child, did they share their financial concerns with you?

My parents were truly middle class in the 60's & 70's (insurance adjuster and teacher) and while we never wanted for food or shelter, money was very tight. I went to college on a combination of scholarships and loans. They bought a house at one point, but had to sell it for almost nothing when my father was transferred and interest rates were 15%+. They never owned a home again. They died relatively young, and if they hadn't, they would have had to work until they couldn't any more and retire on social security.

Housing square footage has increased by 50% since 1980 and, adjusted for inflation, housing prices per square foot have only risen 25% since then. Until very recently, most of that increase has been in the Northeast and West (which is why it seems like everyone is moving to the South and Midwest). The average house didn't have 3 bathrooms or air conditioning. Meanwhile, the price of everything else (food, clothing, electronics) has gone down.

https://www.supermoney.com/inflation-adjusted-home-prices/

https://homebay.com/price-per-square-foot-2022/

People have rose colored glasses on when it comes to the lifestyles of their parents/grandparents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know if OP is trolling or not, but I do actually feel this way. We make less money, though -- 150k (DH 100k, me 50k). I used to make more but the reality of trying to parent kids while you both work was overwhelming. We already had no margin for error because even with an income around 200k, childcare was tight. And then Covid hit. So now I work part time and we pay less for childcare, but have a little more flexibility in our schedule. But yes, money is very tight. We've pretty much given up on the idea that we'll ever own a SFH (we live in a condo now) or feel comfortable financially.

I have a graduate degree and DH is in a STEM field with an Ivy League degree. I grew up UMC and he grew up working class, and while we've far surpassed his economic status as a kid, it's definitely been a step down for me. We've both struggle with our mental health and while there is a version of us that makes WAY more money without working that much harder, I think we just lack the confidence and social skills to make it happen? I feel overwhelmed a lot. I don't know, but I do feel downwardly mobile and can relate to the anxiety OP is galling about.

It’s wild to me how much we now require people to “hustle” to have middle class lives in major metros. My grandfather was a teacher. Supported Grandma and sent 3 kids to college.

Owned a modest ranch home in a major metro, worked part time in the summers, good healthcare, nice pension, traveled in his retirement, had enough to pay for very nice assisted living accommodations in his 80s.

Never owned fancy things (or cared) but good quality of life.

Now, his life is elite.

Cost of living has greatly exceeded pay, for the current generation. Everything - college, homes, everything was relatively cheaper. I don't think Boomers have any idea how good they had it.

People who graduated in the early 80’s faced high unemployment rates and 18% mortgage rates. People a little bit older faced civil unrest and Vietnam where 50,000 of their peers were killed in swampy jungles.

Put it in perspective.

College and homes were the only thing that were cheaper, and the home portion of that is not that much more expensive when you adjust the price for inflation and square footage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either stupid or lazy AF. We only make 150k combined but have 2 houses, 1 a rental and live very comfortably with plenty in savings and money set aside for retirement and college. Our kids are in 2 sports and we make out fine. Now, we do not eat out much, make impulse spending mistakes or spends thousands on clothes. We do vacation to fun spots but not mega budget busters like Europe or beyond. We are saving to go to Europe next year hough and it will not break our bank. You have to be smart and humble.

Not OP but much of this is dependent on location, and there are people who move to HCOL areas thinking their salaries will go up as they gain seniority, but then stagnate and they get priced out. I'm guessing you live in a LCOL area, or maybe moved to your area when real estate was much cheaper and now have cheap mortgages that make your income feasible.

I do agree with you that you have to budget properly and live within your means, but that's not really what OP is talking about. She's not saying "we go out to eat 5 nights a week and take expensive vacations but feel very poor because we can't actually afford those things." She's just saying she feels middle class after growing up UMC and it's a bad feeling. Likely there were things her parents afforded when she was a kid that now she can't afford or give to her own kids, and that's a bad feeling. It doesn't mean she lives outside her means, in fact it indicates she lives within her means but knows what it's like to have more means and that dissonance is where the unhappiness comes in.

Nothing like knowing exactly what you're missing to make it harder to be grateful for what you have, even when you have a lot compared to most people. Thus the psychological problem of downward mobility.

This is it

+1 Exactly. OP has my sympathy.

That said, OP the BS pandemic closures that broke parents (mostly moms) are over and you need to figure out your next move. It's concerning to hear that you only make $50K, even with a part-time job. This sounds like it might be the type of high prestige/low pay job that's intended for trust fund kids. You need to look at how to transfer your skills to an industry where you can earn more money.

What type of work do you do now? We can help you figure out how to earn more in a different field. You need to get into a higher-earning field pronto, even if you have to temporarily pay for childcare or aftercare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either stupid or lazy AF. We only make 150k combined but have 2 houses, 1 a rental and live very comfortably with plenty in savings and money set aside for retirement and college. Our kids are in 2 sports and we make out fine. Now, we do not eat out much, make impulse spending mistakes or spends thousands on clothes. We do vacation to fun spots but not mega budget busters like Europe or beyond. We are saving to go to Europe next year hough and it will not break our bank. You have to be smart and humble.

Not OP but much of this is dependent on location, and there are people who move to HCOL areas thinking their salaries will go up as they gain seniority, but then stagnate and they get priced out. I'm guessing you live in a LCOL area, or maybe moved to your area when real estate was much cheaper and now have cheap mortgages that make your income feasible.

I do agree with you that you have to budget properly and live within your means, but that's not really what OP is talking about. She's not saying "we go out to eat 5 nights a week and take expensive vacations but feel very poor because we can't actually afford those things." She's just saying she feels middle class after growing up UMC and it's a bad feeling. Likely there were things her parents afforded when she was a kid that now she can't afford or give to her own kids, and that's a bad feeling. It doesn't mean she lives outside her means, in fact it indicates she lives within her means but knows what it's like to have more means and that dissonance is where the unhappiness comes in.

Nothing like knowing exactly what you're missing to make it harder to be grateful for what you have, even when you have a lot compared to most people. Thus the psychological problem of downward mobility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New poster here. I literally never talk about this kind of stuff with friends, ever, but last the other night I told a good friend of mine (I had too many drinks in me) that I was very proud of my 30-something son-in-law who had recently overcome some pretty significant obstacles in landing a new job where he and my daughter are now earning a combined $300k plus. They have one toddler and hope to have another and they live in the DMV. My friends insisted that that made them no higher than lower middle or middle middle class for this area. I pushed back, then they suggested that their perspective may be skewed because they associate with a lot of Biglaw attorneys. Of course, I shouldn’t have opened my big mouth at all and really wasn’t doing it to brag. I was just proud of and impressed by the guy, who has a compelling life story.

In any event, you’re not gonna convince me that a middle middle class family in the DMV brings in $300k plus.

300k gross is not the same thing as 300k NET (AFTER TAXES).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either stupid or lazy AF. We only make 150k combined but have 2 houses, 1 a rental and live very comfortably with plenty in savings and money set aside for retirement and college. Our kids are in 2 sports and we make out fine. Now, we do not eat out much, make impulse spending mistakes or spends thousands on clothes. We do vacation to fun spots but not mega budget busters like Europe or beyond. We are saving to go to Europe next year hough and it will not break our bank. You have to be smart and humble.

Not OP but much of this is dependent on location, and there are people who move to HCOL areas thinking their salaries will go up as they gain seniority, but then stagnate and they get priced out. I'm guessing you live in a LCOL area, or maybe moved to your area when real estate was much cheaper and now have cheap mortgages that make your income feasible.

I do agree with you that you have to budget properly and live within your means, but that's not really what OP is talking about. She's not saying "we go out to eat 5 nights a week and take expensive vacations but feel very poor because we can't actually afford those things." She's just saying she feels middle class after growing up UMC and it's a bad feeling. Likely there were things her parents afforded when she was a kid that now she can't afford or give to her own kids, and that's a bad feeling. It doesn't mean she lives outside her means, in fact it indicates she lives within her means but knows what it's like to have more means and that dissonance is where the unhappiness comes in.

Nothing like knowing exactly what you're missing to make it harder to be grateful for what you have, even when you have a lot compared to most people. Thus the psychological problem of downward mobility.

This is it

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are either stupid or lazy AF. We only make 150k combined but have 2 houses, 1 a rental and live very comfortably with plenty in savings and money set aside for retirement and college. Our kids are in 2 sports and we make out fine. Now, we do not eat out much, make impulse spending mistakes or spends thousands on clothes. We do vacation to fun spots but not mega budget busters like Europe or beyond. We are saving to go to Europe next year hough and it will not break our bank. You have to be smart and humble.

Not OP but much of this is dependent on location, and there are people who move to HCOL areas thinking their salaries will go up as they gain seniority, but then stagnate and they get priced out. I'm guessing you live in a LCOL area, or maybe moved to your area when real estate was much cheaper and now have cheap mortgages that make your income feasible.

I do agree with you that you have to budget properly and live within your means, but that's not really what OP is talking about. She's not saying "we go out to eat 5 nights a week and take expensive vacations but feel very poor because we can't actually afford those things." She's just saying she feels middle class after growing up UMC and it's a bad feeling. Likely there were things her parents afforded when she was a kid that now she can't afford or give to her own kids, and that's a bad feeling. It doesn't mean she lives outside her means, in fact it indicates she lives within her means but knows what it's like to have more means and that dissonance is where the unhappiness comes in.

Nothing like knowing exactly what you're missing to make it harder to be grateful for what you have, even when you have a lot compared to most people. Thus the psychological problem of downward mobility.

This is it

+1 Exactly. OP has my sympathy.

That said, OP the BS pandemic closures that broke parents (mostly moms) are over and you need to figure out your next move. It's concerning to hear that you only make $50K, even with a part-time job. This sounds like it might be the type of high prestige/low pay job that's intended for trust fund kids. You need to look at how to transfer your skills to an industry where you can earn more money.

What type of work do you do now? We can help you figure out how to earn more in a different field. You need to get into a higher-earning field pronto, even if you have to temporarily pay for childcare or aftercare.

OP here. I am a Program manager.

[Anonymous]

DP. Like at a nonprofit program manager. That likely means you have skills you could transfer to another position that would pay you more.