Spouses of big law partners/lawyers

[Anonymous]

"How do you continue to be supportive and not resentful of your spouses work hours?"

By not working full-time. I get to follow my dreams while the kids are in school and I do all the other stuff with zero stress. It's pretty great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your big problem is your debt. That's what is making your income feel "not enough."

I think the first thing you need to do is sit down with a financial advisor, or on your own if you think you can do it, and come up with a plan to pay off your student loans rapidly. If you have some loans locked in at very low rates, maybe keep those on a payment plan, but everything else, you should be looking to just pay off. I'd be looking to pay those off either entirely or at least anything at more than a 3% interest rate, within 24 months. If you can get rid of that debt, or at least get it down to maybe 50-60k locked in at low interest rates, it's going to totally change how you view your budget. Plus, that kind of debt when you have kids is a massive source of stress. Since the stress levels of your DH's job are an issue, you need to be looking for ways to eliminate other sources of stress.

I think your goal should be to get to the point where you can either quit your job OR afford a full time housekeeper/nanny who can help you share the load since your DH can't. Your income is not low in an absolute sense, but your DH has a job that assumes a SAHP or full time help, and that will never change. That's just how it is for law firm partners. So you either need to become a SAHM or hire full time help. Period.

If you pay down the loan debt, you might reach a point where you can more comfortably leave your job. I know people at that income level who pay for bare bones "catastrophic" health insurance and then pay for most actual health care out of pocket, and it makes more sense for them financially. There's also no reason, given your DH's income, why you have to go through your job for you retirement fund. Is it a government pension? I honestly am not sure it's worth it in your case. If it's a 401k with an employer match, it's definitely not worth it in our case. At your income, you have better mechanisms for savings and investment -- real estate, a bunch of money in low-fee index funds like Vanguard, etc. Again, a financial planner could help you with this. Or just buy a few financial planning books and figure it out. It's not rocket science, especially when you have your level of cash flow.

You guys are managing your finances like a couple in their late 20s or early 30s making under 200k. It's the debt that is doing it. Frankly, you should have done more to pay that down before having kids and before your DH made partner, but it's not too late. You need to grow up though. You have kids and your DH has a serious job and no one is going to feel sorry for you if you can't figure it out because you are very high income and put yourselves in this position.

OP here - yes agree our debt is the biggest factor in our budget.

We pay upward of $3000 per month on student loans. We should be done paying the majority of ours in the next 2-3 years I believe. The next highest payments are mortgage ($4,000) and daycare costs, which finally have gone done to one daycare but previously we were paying 3 daycare costs. Now we pay 1 daycare and then summer camps so if you average it around $1900 per month over 12 months.

You should be done in 2-3 years, you believe? Lady, you are complaining about stress and resentment and you don't know for sure when your $3000/mo student loan payments end? I am not joking about this -- go look. Right now. You have a 36k annual expense and you are not even sure how long you will have it for.

Yes, daycare is expensive. Something that should have been abundantly clear to you after your FIRST kid. You have 3? Why didn't you switch to a nanny after #2 anyway? By 3 kids, the nanny is definitely more economical, and then you'd already have a relationship with someone you could potentially keep on as a housekeeper/sitter. Right now you are spending 5k a month on student loans + daycare + camp -- once your loans are done, you could easily be spending less than that and have a full time household employee.

Depending on your DH's bonus this year, you could get that full time household employee by next year anyway. If he's a first year partner at 550k, my guess is you are going to see significant income bumps in coming years. You will have no problem affording household help.

Sorry you are feeling resentment today. But you married a corporate lawyer and between the two of you, you had a quarter of a million dollars in student loans. You then proceeded to have THREE children together, before paying off those loans, and bought a home worth at least 700k (I'm betting more but being conservative based on your mortgage payment and how long I'm guessing you've owned it). Within the next 2-3 years, you will likely have an extra 100k or more room in your budget, as you finish paying off loans and your DH's salary increases. And you would rather sit around lamenting how you can't afford a housekeeper than take a few minutes to go find out when you will be done paying off those loans and do a tiny bit of math. Oh yeah, and while you get a full time salary, some weeks you only work 20 hours a week.

Excuse me, I need to go put away the world's tiniest violin because I got it out thinking it was appropriate for this situation, but now that I have more facts, realize it is too big for the job.

Girl. Please.

I love you.

I also love you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve been married 30 yrs. In that time we’ve had 4 kids, he’s gone from associate to partner, worked govt and also big law. I have worked full time 23 yrs. When I worked full time, I always had full time help. I had a house cleaner and sitter. Sometimes the sitter dropped kids off at after-school activities and I picked up. Sometimes I would take one to piano or violin lessons, leaving sitter with the other kids. I had 4 weeks vacation. She also got 4 weeks. I treated her like a salaried employee but she was more like family, so I never had issues there.

Of course I resented the hours at times, like when I was home with a newborn and he was traveling. I even had to be induced to fit his travel schedule.

But, I also quit my job when I felt like a pizza that had been sliced into too many pieces. I didn’t resent my spouse; I resented my job. So I quit to have more time to balance it all.

As you describe it, you are carrying 100% of the load for the kids. Do you have a sitter? How do you handle summers and sick kids? My sitter was invaluable to us. We couldn’t have done it without her expertise and dedication.

I would recommend trying to reframe or redirect your resentment. You can afford help. If there’s a reason you can’t let go of everything, consider asking why. Otherwise, get help so you and your spouse can support one another.

Op here - kids are in elementary school and daycare. I handle sick days by staying home with them. Kids go to summer camp.

DH makes good money but not insane money even for a partner. I think last year he made $550k with bonus. So we can’t realistically pay a full time housekeeper or something like that.

Maybe we could have a nanny but we felt that daycare actually was a better fit for our extroverted kids who needed to be around other kids during the day. But I would be open to a part time helper to do laundry or cooking or dropping kids off at sports. How do you find someone who only wants to work a few hours a day?

Obviously I don’t know your situation, but if he’s a partner working those kinds of hours for $550k including bonus, you should consider looking at a different firm. Talk with a recruiter. That’s on the very low end of partnership (counsels at most top 100 make that) so makes me think this isn’t really big law but a small boutique or an income partner that’s really a counsel but called partner. Either way, no way those kind of hours and inflexibility for that amount of money.

+1. The money isn’t worth the sacrifice. He could find a job making $180-$250 and have a very manageable schedule. Is there any way you can make more?

[Anonymous]

Np
We each have our heavy stressors but marriage, money and kids are not part of that. This is probably because I sahm and the kids are happy, healthy and over 10. I notice others struggle way more in marriage/ kids but don't have a problem with the things I struggle with.

[Anonymous]

I don't get this math. I'm an MD, paid off my loans (300K), and make about 250K annually. I've always had a FT nanny. OP where is the money going?

[Anonymous]

OP, I agree that there are ways to make this work for you. Think about what part of taking care of the family/ house that you enjoy and create a life that lets you focus on that. Once my kids were in school and we didn’t need a full-time nanny, we hired a housekeeper from 2-6 M-F. When I needed help carting kids around or picking them up from school, she could do it. She could chop veggies to prep for dinner, run errands, etc. And otherwise, she kept our house spotless. It was a great solution for our family.

[Anonymous]

You have plenty of money. $550 is a huge amount so yes, you can have a full time housekeeper/babysiter. Where is all your money going if you are screaming poverty. We live comfortably on 1/3 what you do.

[Anonymous]

OP, I think people are being harsh. I think the issue is feeling alone in your marriage and not having the partner you expected in parenting. My husband is a partner and tries to have boundaries and does his best but sometimes he’s just so absorbed in work even when he’s with us he’s distracted and grumpy. He needs a lot of sleep and I feel like he has less margin than other partners. You can’t hire a spouse or a partner in your parenting. Like a kid has a major issue and you end up dealing alone or 95 percent alone because no one else cares like a parent. It’s not what I would have picked. We have been together since we were teenagers and when we got married I didn’t think it would be like this.

What would mean most to you? I really appreciate my husband making an effort but I always feel like my top job is to maximize his quality time with our kids. They get no say in their parents and having one who is not very present is not ideal. So to me when he’s spending good time with our kids I’m mostly ok. When he’s snapping at us all because he’s stressed I ask him to take a break and just do whatever he needs to do to be calmer. I hate this aspect of our marriage and I’d much much rather he worked less - he is much more pleasant when work is slower which hasn’t been for a while now. Right now you maybe don’t have a ton of options but in 3 years you will have a lot more. Is he planning to do this for good? I think my husband is and there probably isn’t much I can do about it. But if he’s not happy maybe this is a short term thing.

Can you cut back at work (if you are interested in that)? I really didn’t personally want to be a SAHM but am much happier at a slightly lower hour role. Many women in my situation do similarly- you might not even know it. But consider talking to your work if you can keep those important benefits on a lower hour requirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here with some salient additional information:

1) I make around $100,000 per year but I really work for my health insurance and retirement, which we get through my job.
2) our house isn’t big enough for an au pair and I don’t really feel like having a late teen/early 20 year old to also take care of (per experiences from friends who have had au pairs)
3) we do have bi-weekly cleaners and landscapers who cut the yard and do clean ups/weeding/etc
4) we are still paying off student loans (+$250,000 between DH and myself undergrad plus grad for him and grad for me) but should be done in 3 years thank god. So between student loans and daycare costs the past 8 years we are severely behind on retirement and savings

I think what would really help is someone in the afternoons to help kids with homework/shuttle them around when needed/make dinner/help with laundry. So someone 3-4 hours a day. Is that possible? How much would that cost?

You have a combine HHI of over $600K, you can easily afford full time help and then you get rid of the day care/after school care.

You can also quit and stay home and get health insurance from his job and save for your retirement separately via his income.

[Anonymous]

MAN, people are being harsh. I am really sorry, OP. I am a lawyer in a much lower-paying job because I knew I couldn't handle the big law lifestyle as a mom, but I have a ton of good friends in this situation and have a lot of empathy for it.

You can definitely find some additional household help! Ask friends who have nannies, cleaning ladies, etc. A friend of mine pays her friends' morning nanny to drive her kids around in the afternoon, and together, that is a full-time job for that woman. Is there a trustworthy teen in your neighborhood who could watch your kids for a few hours while you get 1:1 time with another one of the kids or go do something for yourself? You could look for a housekeeper on care.com, local mom groups, etc. I am constantly seeing "my nanny needs more hours!" kind of posts in my neighborhood.

It sounds like you don't want to scale back at work, and I totally get that. To get some immediate relief, take a look at your calendar and plan a few random days off and DO NOT FILL THEM WITH KID STUFF. Do whatever makes you feel human and relaxed. Ask a friend or neighbor to grab your kids after school for a couple of hours. I guarantee you there are people in your network who see you doing everything and want to help. I would love to do this for a friend.

Hang in there, OP!

[Anonymous]

Have your cleaners come weekly and hire a nanny. You can do part time preschool for socialization. My DH is also a partner and makes over 650k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve been married 30 yrs. In that time we’ve had 4 kids, he’s gone from associate to partner, worked govt and also big law. I have worked full time 23 yrs. When I worked full time, I always had full time help. I had a house cleaner and sitter. Sometimes the sitter dropped kids off at after-school activities and I picked up. Sometimes I would take one to piano or violin lessons, leaving sitter with the other kids. I had 4 weeks vacation. She also got 4 weeks. I treated her like a salaried employee but she was more like family, so I never had issues there.

Of course I resented the hours at times, like when I was home with a newborn and he was traveling. I even had to be induced to fit his travel schedule.

But, I also quit my job when I felt like a pizza that had been sliced into too many pieces. I didn’t resent my spouse; I resented my job. So I quit to have more time to balance it all.

As you describe it, you are carrying 100% of the load for the kids. Do you have a sitter? How do you handle summers and sick kids? My sitter was invaluable to us. We couldn’t have done it without her expertise and dedication.

I would recommend trying to reframe or redirect your resentment. You can afford help. If there’s a reason you can’t let go of everything, consider asking why. Otherwise, get help so you and your spouse can support one another.

Op here - kids are in elementary school and daycare. I handle sick days by staying home with them. Kids go to summer camp.

DH makes good money but not insane money even for a partner. I think last year he made $550k with bonus. So we can’t realistically pay a full time housekeeper or something like that.

Maybe we could have a nanny but we felt that daycare actually was a better fit for our extroverted kids who needed to be around other kids during the day. But I would be open to a part time helper to do laundry or cooking or dropping kids off at sports. How do you find someone who only wants to work a few hours a day?

Obviously I don’t know your situation, but if he’s a partner working those kinds of hours for $550k including bonus, you should consider looking at a different firm. Talk with a recruiter. That’s on the very low end of partnership (counsels at most top 100 make that) so makes me think this isn’t really big law but a small boutique or an income partner that’s really a counsel but called partner. Either way, no way those kind of hours and inflexibility for that amount of money.

+1. The money isn’t worth the sacrifice. He could find a job making $180-$250 and have a very manageable schedule. Is there any way you can make more?

If OP’s DH is a partner, he can’t just leave or scale down. He’s bought into the partnership (literally) & must pay off the investment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I always assume people who marry a person who works > 50 hours per week must just not really like each other very much. Who the hell would sign up for a long term relationship where you never see the person, much less with a person who never sees their own children. Nightmare fuel

I agree with this statement. I feel like their love life sucks.

[Anonymous]

Either you quit or you hire help. You are making this harder than it needs to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MAN, people are being harsh. I am really sorry, OP. I am a lawyer in a much lower-paying job because I knew I couldn't handle the big law lifestyle as a mom, but I have a ton of good friends in this situation and have a lot of empathy for it.

You can definitely find some additional household help! Ask friends who have nannies, cleaning ladies, etc. A friend of mine pays her friends' morning nanny to drive her kids around in the afternoon, and together, that is a full-time job for that woman. Is there a trustworthy teen in your neighborhood who could watch your kids for a few hours while you get 1:1 time with another one of the kids or go do something for yourself? You could look for a housekeeper on care.com, local mom groups, etc. I am constantly seeing "my nanny needs more hours!" kind of posts in my neighborhood.

It sounds like you don't want to scale back at work, and I totally get that. To get some immediate relief, take a look at your calendar and plan a few random days off and DO NOT FILL THEM WITH KID STUFF. Do whatever makes you feel human and relaxed. Ask a friend or neighbor to grab your kids after school for a couple of hours. I guarantee you there are people in your network who see you doing everything and want to help. I would love to do this for a friend.

Hang in there, OP!

I am being harsh on OP specifically because I do know people in this situation and OP is being ridiculous. She didn't ask for ideas for how to find a nanny or how to get help from her "network" -- she's complaining that she resents her husband, who is working long hours at a stressful job to support a OP and their three children. He makes 5x what OP makes.

And when people have said "yes, you need to outsource, hire someone" OP keeps making excuses. Her house is too small for an au pair (of course it is, they have 3 kids), she doesn't think they can afford a housekeeper because of their loans, etc.

People are being harsh because OP is complaining about a solvable problem that she absolutely has the means to resolve. If she was saying "My DH won't let us hire a nanny" or "I really didn't want to have a third kid but DH insisted and now I'm overwhelmed," that would be different. But she literally just resents that her DH's job, which brings in a half million dollars a year and makes their entire life possible, takes too much time and is too stressful. I have the same amount of empathy for OP as I have for all working parents, but I don't have extra sympathy for her situation because her DH is a Big Law partner and works long hours. I know lots of women in the same situation and they all find a way to make it work. I also know plenty of people who are making it work on a fraction of the income, but still with demanding or stressful jobs. OP needs to stop complaining and actually do the things already within her control to make her life better.