Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man here - some of this is because, in general, women who stay home do a lot of the little unpaid tasks that add up to a lot. My SAHM DW to an 11 and 14 year old does almost all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, appointments, homeroom mom, etc. etc. that adds up to probably something like a 6 hour shift. She has it easier than I do now at my biglaw job but when the kids were little, her days were more of a slog than mine.

But if she weren't doing all of those things, I would judge her as lazy.

Also, a lot of it is biology. I have never seen this situation work in reverse (biglaw woman partner with SAH DH). I think men take pride in providing for their families, and women get resentful if their DH isn't working. I think female attraction over the long term is hard enough and they lose attraction if their man isn't working outside the home. "lack of ambition" or how ever you want to phrase it. I am not saying this is fair but it seems very consistent

Don’t disagree with this but as a working mom just wanted to chime in that I also do all the things you describe your wife do and same number of kids. Would not say is a 6 hour shift

I have a housekeeper that does all of the cooking, cleaning, errand running, laundry, grocery shopping, and home maintenance stuff. She works 8am-1pm five days a week. She seems pretty busy.

ohhhhh! You’re right - all working moms without a housekeeper are wrong. It’s truly not possible to take care of your family and work an 8-9 hour shift. Ty for enlightening us all. Side note - instacart! Wonderful invention.

No. I’m just saying that if you add it up, between you and your husband, you are probably spending 20-30 hours a week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, errands, yardwork, and home maintenance. You can do that and still work 8 hours a day.

We are absolutely not doing 20-30 hours a week of these things. Unless you have an estate and five kids

I think that most married couples with kids are spending 20-30 hours/week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, home maintenance, and yardwork (between themselves, their spouse, and any hired help). I can’t think of anyone I know who is spending much less time than that.
I do know a lot if people who are bad at math though. I get it. Multiplying by 7 is hard.

3 hours a day? Maybe if you count procrastinating

[Anonymous]

Yes, I judge men more harshly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man here - some of this is because, in general, women who stay home do a lot of the little unpaid tasks that add up to a lot. My SAHM DW to an 11 and 14 year old does almost all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, appointments, homeroom mom, etc. etc. that adds up to probably something like a 6 hour shift. She has it easier than I do now at my biglaw job but when the kids were little, her days were more of a slog than mine.

But if she weren't doing all of those things, I would judge her as lazy.

Also, a lot of it is biology. I have never seen this situation work in reverse (biglaw woman partner with SAH DH). I think men take pride in providing for their families, and women get resentful if their DH isn't working. I think female attraction over the long term is hard enough and they lose attraction if their man isn't working outside the home. "lack of ambition" or how ever you want to phrase it. I am not saying this is fair but it seems very consistent

+1 I think this is spot on, and I'm a woman.

I was also a sahm for a bit. I did give the option for DH to be the sahp, but he declined. LOL. And I know exactly why he did. Personally, being a sahp to very young kids was not my cup of tea, nor is it his. I don't enjoy that aspect of being a parent. But it was necessary for our family at the time. Being a sahp was easier mentally, but tedious, and you almost never get to just take a break whenever you feel like it. When you feel sick, you can't just tell your kids, "Hey, I'm having a sick day. Be back tomorrow."

Quite honestly, I wouldn't lack respect for my DH if he had chosen to be a sahd for that time period, but I have a feeling that he would not have been as thorough in his cleaning and cooking. He has different priorities than I do, and I'm more type A than he is. So, I would've been more critical of him as a sahp because the house wasn't as clean as it should be. I notice a lot more dust and crumbs than he does. LOL. It worked for the best.

Having stated that, I don't think women should be a sahp forever. When the kids are much older and don't need you as much, I think moms should get a job.

Being a sahp forever is not great for many reasons: 1. kills your brain cells and you start to get lazy 2. you never know what might happen either to your marriage or to your spouse.

Np and agree. I find myself judging my friends who still don’t work even though their kids are at school now. And I know their husbands feel resentful bc they talk about it in hushed tones, but increasingly more vocally. I feel like many women have hid behind gender roles and made up numbers of hours of ‘home stuff’ for a long time and the husbands/ society buy it. If you’re doing 6 hours of stuff a day you are doing something wrong - and plus esp if you have a degree idk why these women prefer to clean than get a full or part time job they might actually enjoy and earn double snag it would cost to pay a cleaner, for example

DH and I both work from home with flexible jobs. During the day we’re constantly interspersing loads of laundry, emptying the dishwasher, light meal prep, etc. Then there is taking time off for 3 kids’ medical appointments (1 has some special needs). Plus we both try to volunteer a couple times per month at our kids’ schools. We still have to outsource stuff like cleaning and yard work. Grocery shopping gets squeezed into the early evenings/weekends or occasionally drive up. Plus being home for home repairs, taking care of basic home maintenance, pet care/vet appointments, researching and signing kids up for summer camps which require being at a computer at a precise time, unexpected sick days, early release days, elder care for an aging parent who needs rides to appointments, dropping the car off for maintenance, and so on with all the tedious life stuff.

If we didn’t have 2 flexible jobs where we could handle some of this mid-day and the ability to outsource some things, I can totally see how 1 person could fill their day with this stuff. Obviously there are some things that could be slashed like classroom volunteering, but most of this stuff has to be done and I think the person away at the office doesn’t always see these little things and takes them for granted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women judge a man’s worth on the job/career he has. Women look for money, power and fame in some combination as to the value of the man. Men know this. This is why a man who does not work, works a low paid/part time or works as SAHD are not valued by men or women.

It’s not really just not valuing the man. Women laugh at men like this. This sends a clear message to other men and women.

Men have to be really, really broken to subject themselves to this. Like it or not, we all know that's what most people think. And rightly so. Do what you want, live however you want, but sitting around doing nothing while someone else works to support you is not virtuous or admirable. It indicates bad character or damaged goods.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because WOMEN’S salaries can’t support a family and often can’t even cover daycare.

I make $500k and dh makes $160. Also it’s not the 1950s, from whence you got this info

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man here - some of this is because, in general, women who stay home do a lot of the little unpaid tasks that add up to a lot. My SAHM DW to an 11 and 14 year old does almost all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, appointments, homeroom mom, etc. etc. that adds up to probably something like a 6 hour shift. She has it easier than I do now at my biglaw job but when the kids were little, her days were more of a slog than mine.

But if she weren't doing all of those things, I would judge her as lazy.

Also, a lot of it is biology. I have never seen this situation work in reverse (biglaw woman partner with SAH DH). I think men take pride in providing for their families, and women get resentful if their DH isn't working. I think female attraction over the long term is hard enough and they lose attraction if their man isn't working outside the home. "lack of ambition" or how ever you want to phrase it. I am not saying this is fair but it seems very consistent

Don’t disagree with this but as a working mom just wanted to chime in that I also do all the things you describe your wife do and same number of kids. Would not say is a 6 hour shift

I have a housekeeper that does all of the cooking, cleaning, errand running, laundry, grocery shopping, and home maintenance stuff. She works 8am-1pm five days a week. She seems pretty busy.

ohhhhh! You’re right - all working moms without a housekeeper are wrong. It’s truly not possible to take care of your family and work an 8-9 hour shift. Ty for enlightening us all. Side note - instacart! Wonderful invention.

No. I’m just saying that if you add it up, between you and your husband, you are probably spending 20-30 hours a week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, errands, yardwork, and home maintenance. You can do that and still work 8 hours a day.

We are absolutely not doing 20-30 hours a week of these things. Unless you have an estate and five kids

I think that most married couples with kids are spending 20-30 hours/week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, home maintenance, and yardwork (between themselves, their spouse, and any hired help). I can’t think of anyone I know who is spending much less time than that.
I do know a lot if people who are bad at math though. I get it. Multiplying by 7 is hard.

3 hours a day? Maybe if you count procrastinating

Yes. Maybe each member of the couple spends 45 minutes a day during the week (she makes dinner, and he cleans up/takes out the trash and tidies up…they Botha spend 15 minutes getting breakfast on the table, packing lunches, and cleaning up in the morning).
Then they hire out housekeeping 4 hours a week.
On the weekends, they still do this daily meal prep, plus each spends 3 hours on their respective tasks. (Maybe she does the laundry and grocery shopping, while he mows the lawn and cleans out the garage).
That’s 20 hours/week. Does that really seem insane to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man here - some of this is because, in general, women who stay home do a lot of the little unpaid tasks that add up to a lot. My SAHM DW to an 11 and 14 year old does almost all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, appointments, homeroom mom, etc. etc. that adds up to probably something like a 6 hour shift. She has it easier than I do now at my biglaw job but when the kids were little, her days were more of a slog than mine.

But if she weren't doing all of those things, I would judge her as lazy.

Also, a lot of it is biology. I have never seen this situation work in reverse (biglaw woman partner with SAH DH). I think men take pride in providing for their families, and women get resentful if their DH isn't working. I think female attraction over the long term is hard enough and they lose attraction if their man isn't working outside the home. "lack of ambition" or how ever you want to phrase it. I am not saying this is fair but it seems very consistent

Don’t disagree with this but as a working mom just wanted to chime in that I also do all the things you describe your wife do and same number of kids. Would not say is a 6 hour shift

I have a housekeeper that does all of the cooking, cleaning, errand running, laundry, grocery shopping, and home maintenance stuff. She works 8am-1pm five days a week. She seems pretty busy.

ohhhhh! You’re right - all working moms without a housekeeper are wrong. It’s truly not possible to take care of your family and work an 8-9 hour shift. Ty for enlightening us all. Side note - instacart! Wonderful invention.

No. I’m just saying that if you add it up, between you and your husband, you are probably spending 20-30 hours a week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, errands, yardwork, and home maintenance. You can do that and still work 8 hours a day.

We are absolutely not doing 20-30 hours a week of these things. Unless you have an estate and five kids

Well, getting groceries, preparing food every day, and cleaning up afterward is probably 10 hours/wk. Cleaning the house top to bottom is about 4 hours/week. Laundry is about 2 hours/week. Caring for the yard is about 2 hours/wk. That’s 18 hours before you have done any of the little things that take 5-10 minutes a day (ie. taking out the trash, making your bed) or any of the bigger things that take more time (hiring our major home repairs, doing minor home repairs, organizing/decluttering).

I don’t know anyone who doesn’t spend at least an hour most days and a few hours on the weekend doing these things unless they hire them out.

I’d agree with 1 hour a day. Not 20-30 a week. Also - again - instacart. Saving the $20 on delivery is not worth the hours you are saying it takes to get groceries in 2022 unless you are very low income and in that case should be working

[Anonymous]

I’m the 11:08 poster and realized I forgot to even add in the kids activities like sports and swimming, many of which start at 5 pm. The world really isn’t set up for a dual income family unless you have a lot of flexibility or outsource a ton. Those options are fine, but if you don’t have them then you still need someone to handle this stuff. I don’t understand the judgment over a parent choosing to do this stuff instead of choosing to outsource. DH and I have thought about taking on higher earning roles at work, but would rather be around to take care of our kids when they’re sick, meet them at the bus stop instead of using aftercare, being available to coach sports teams, etc.

So personally I would not judge a man who takes on more household stuff in lieu of working, but I find an involved husband/father to be more attractive than a man who is gone all the time trying to make partner. The reason SAHDs get judged is just weird outdated stereotyping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man here - some of this is because, in general, women who stay home do a lot of the little unpaid tasks that add up to a lot. My SAHM DW to an 11 and 14 year old does almost all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, appointments, homeroom mom, etc. etc. that adds up to probably something like a 6 hour shift. She has it easier than I do now at my biglaw job but when the kids were little, her days were more of a slog than mine.

But if she weren't doing all of those things, I would judge her as lazy.

Also, a lot of it is biology. I have never seen this situation work in reverse (biglaw woman partner with SAH DH). I think men take pride in providing for their families, and women get resentful if their DH isn't working. I think female attraction over the long term is hard enough and they lose attraction if their man isn't working outside the home. "lack of ambition" or how ever you want to phrase it. I am not saying this is fair but it seems very consistent

Don’t disagree with this but as a working mom just wanted to chime in that I also do all the things you describe your wife do and same number of kids. Would not say is a 6 hour shift

I have a housekeeper that does all of the cooking, cleaning, errand running, laundry, grocery shopping, and home maintenance stuff. She works 8am-1pm five days a week. She seems pretty busy.

ohhhhh! You’re right - all working moms without a housekeeper are wrong. It’s truly not possible to take care of your family and work an 8-9 hour shift. Ty for enlightening us all. Side note - instacart! Wonderful invention.

No. I’m just saying that if you add it up, between you and your husband, you are probably spending 20-30 hours a week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, errands, yardwork, and home maintenance. You can do that and still work 8 hours a day.

We are absolutely not doing 20-30 hours a week of these things. Unless you have an estate and five kids

I think that most married couples with kids are spending 20-30 hours/week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, home maintenance, and yardwork (between themselves, their spouse, and any hired help). I can’t think of anyone I know who is spending much less time than that.
I do know a lot if people who are bad at math though. I get it. Multiplying by 7 is hard.

3 hours a day? Maybe if you count procrastinating

Yes. Maybe each member of the couple spends 45 minutes a day during the week (she makes dinner, and he cleans up/takes out the trash and tidies up…they Botha spend 15 minutes getting breakfast on the table, packing lunches, and cleaning up in the morning).
Then they hire out housekeeping 4 hours a week.
On the weekends, they still do this daily meal prep, plus each spends 3 hours on their respective tasks. (Maybe she does the laundry and grocery shopping, while he mows the lawn and cleans out the garage).
That’s 20 hours/week. Does that really seem insane to you?

At this point you are just describing being alive - not what a sahm might do during the day. Unless it’s a marriage where one person outsources literally every single life task including on weekends to a single party which is ridic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m the 11:08 poster and realized I forgot to even add in the kids activities like sports and swimming, many of which start at 5 pm. The world really isn’t set up for a dual income family unless you have a lot of flexibility or outsource a ton. Those options are fine, but if you don’t have them then you still need someone to handle this stuff. I don’t understand the judgment over a parent choosing to do this stuff instead of choosing to outsource. DH and I have thought about taking on higher earning roles at work, but would rather be around to take care of our kids when they’re sick, meet them at the bus stop instead of using aftercare, being available to coach sports teams, etc.

So personally I would not judge a man who takes on more household stuff in lieu of working, but I find an involved husband/father to be more attractive than a man who is gone all the time trying to make partner. The reason SAHDs get judged is just weird outdated stereotyping.

It is but so much of life is communal. I get annoyed when I'm in meetings that start. Now Gentleman. The truth of it is that the SAHD will likely always be a minority and same for the CEO woman. It's fine, but stop pretending that the rest of your gender wants to follow suit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man here - some of this is because, in general, women who stay home do a lot of the little unpaid tasks that add up to a lot. My SAHM DW to an 11 and 14 year old does almost all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, appointments, homeroom mom, etc. etc. that adds up to probably something like a 6 hour shift. She has it easier than I do now at my biglaw job but when the kids were little, her days were more of a slog than mine.

But if she weren't doing all of those things, I would judge her as lazy.

Also, a lot of it is biology. I have never seen this situation work in reverse (biglaw woman partner with SAH DH). I think men take pride in providing for their families, and women get resentful if their DH isn't working. I think female attraction over the long term is hard enough and they lose attraction if their man isn't working outside the home. "lack of ambition" or how ever you want to phrase it. I am not saying this is fair but it seems very consistent

Don’t disagree with this but as a working mom just wanted to chime in that I also do all the things you describe your wife do and same number of kids. Would not say is a 6 hour shift

I have a housekeeper that does all of the cooking, cleaning, errand running, laundry, grocery shopping, and home maintenance stuff. She works 8am-1pm five days a week. She seems pretty busy.

ohhhhh! You’re right - all working moms without a housekeeper are wrong. It’s truly not possible to take care of your family and work an 8-9 hour shift. Ty for enlightening us all. Side note - instacart! Wonderful invention.

No. I’m just saying that if you add it up, between you and your husband, you are probably spending 20-30 hours a week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, errands, yardwork, and home maintenance. You can do that and still work 8 hours a day.

We are absolutely not doing 20-30 hours a week of these things. Unless you have an estate and five kids

I think that most married couples with kids are spending 20-30 hours/week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, home maintenance, and yardwork (between themselves, their spouse, and any hired help). I can’t think of anyone I know who is spending much less time than that.
I do know a lot if people who are bad at math though. I get it. Multiplying by 7 is hard.

3 hours a day? Maybe if you count procrastinating

Yes. Maybe each member of the couple spends 45 minutes a day during the week (she makes dinner, and he cleans up/takes out the trash and tidies up…they Botha spend 15 minutes getting breakfast on the table, packing lunches, and cleaning up in the morning).
Then they hire out housekeeping 4 hours a week.
On the weekends, they still do this daily meal prep, plus each spends 3 hours on their respective tasks. (Maybe she does the laundry and grocery shopping, while he mows the lawn and cleans out the garage).
That’s 20 hours/week. Does that really seem insane to you?

At this point you are just describing being alive - not what a sahm might do during the day. Unless it’s a marriage where one person outsources literally every single life task including on weekends to a single party which is ridic

I’m describing what I did before I hired my housekeeper to do it.
This stuff isn’t my life, and I’m willing to bet that it isn’t Mr BigLaw’s.

[Anonymous]

It's sexism, pure and simple. My DH has stayed at home since our twins were born. He has done the vast majority of the childcare and work around the house, including cooking and cleaning, for many years. I work as a lawyer. And yes, he has been judged harshly and excluded regardless of how much he does at home or at school.

Lest anyone comment "beta male," which tends to be the tone of these discussions, he is a combat veteran. So any questions about his manliness have been asked and answered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's sexism, pure and simple. My DH has stayed at home since our twins were born. He has done the vast majority of the childcare and work around the house, including cooking and cleaning, for many years. I work as a lawyer. And yes, he has been judged harshly and excluded regardless of how much he does at home or at school.

Lest anyone comment "beta male," which tends to be the tone of these discussions, he is a combat veteran. So any questions about his manliness have been asked and answered.

I think that just happens because it goes against the grain. Our town's moms group just wanted to keep things all moms. Some dad groups just want to golf with men. It's sexism but sexism not all negative and includes just wanting to doing less work and creating more safety in the community. Anything that goes contrary to the norm is more work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because WOMEN’S salaries can’t support a family and often can’t even cover daycare.

I make $500k and dh makes $160. Also it’s not the 1950s, from whence you got this info

You’re in the top 1% do the other 95%.

Yes it still an issue .. be glad you were born on 3rd base.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man here - some of this is because, in general, women who stay home do a lot of the little unpaid tasks that add up to a lot. My SAHM DW to an 11 and 14 year old does almost all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, appointments, homeroom mom, etc. etc. that adds up to probably something like a 6 hour shift. She has it easier than I do now at my biglaw job but when the kids were little, her days were more of a slog than mine.

But if she weren't doing all of those things, I would judge her as lazy.

Also, a lot of it is biology. I have never seen this situation work in reverse (biglaw woman partner with SAH DH). I think men take pride in providing for their families, and women get resentful if their DH isn't working. I think female attraction over the long term is hard enough and they lose attraction if their man isn't working outside the home. "lack of ambition" or how ever you want to phrase it. I am not saying this is fair but it seems very consistent

Don’t disagree with this but as a working mom just wanted to chime in that I also do all the things you describe your wife do and same number of kids. Would not say is a 6 hour shift

I have a housekeeper that does all of the cooking, cleaning, errand running, laundry, grocery shopping, and home maintenance stuff. She works 8am-1pm five days a week. She seems pretty busy.

ohhhhh! You’re right - all working moms without a housekeeper are wrong. It’s truly not possible to take care of your family and work an 8-9 hour shift. Ty for enlightening us all. Side note - instacart! Wonderful invention.

No. I’m just saying that if you add it up, between you and your husband, you are probably spending 20-30 hours a week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, errands, yardwork, and home maintenance. You can do that and still work 8 hours a day.

We are absolutely not doing 20-30 hours a week of these things. Unless you have an estate and five kids

Well, getting groceries, preparing food every day, and cleaning up afterward is probably 10 hours/wk. Cleaning the house top to bottom is about 4 hours/week. Laundry is about 2 hours/week. Caring for the yard is about 2 hours/wk. That’s 18 hours before you have done any of the little things that take 5-10 minutes a day (ie. taking out the trash, making your bed) or any of the bigger things that take more time (hiring our major home repairs, doing minor home repairs, organizing/decluttering).

I don’t know anyone who doesn’t spend at least an hour most days and a few hours on the weekend doing these things unless they hire them out.

I’d agree with 1 hour a day. Not 20-30 a week. Also - again - instacart. Saving the $20 on delivery is not worth the hours you are saying it takes to get groceries in 2022 unless you are very low income and in that case should be working

People dilly dally to waste time and call it “doing work”. If your in michaels multiple times a year it’s a hobby not work.