Aggressive Play in boys - UGH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, most of these posts are from women, so take what they say with a grain of salt as they know nothing about what it is like to be a boy.
First, don't blame yourself. Guys in the US have become puzzified over the last 20+ years. It is worse among kids not playing sports and it is far worse in urban areas

Second, forget about these stupid books and role playing garbage.

Third, your kids need to mentally overcome this fear now, as this will likely lead to other issues down the road. This is what happens when boys are treated like girls. I like what the counselor said above about kids wrestling with their father, but that is just a start. I think anything with physical contact will help. It doesn't necessarily have to be tae Kwon do or karate because sparring is so light that nobody really takes much damage. Wrestling or football would be great. Some conflict among kids can be really healthy. For example, punching someone in the face is a good way to build self esteem and set boundaries in certain situations.

I think this post ticks me off the most because it glorifies the old days when men were men and women just made dinner and laid on their backs. For the love of god, you think it's healthy to punch people in the face to build self esteem.

Over-sensitivity is not what happens when boys are treated like girls, it's what happens when ANY kid's brain is wired to be sensitive. I think OP is doing great by recognizing this in her kids and asking the right questions. Sometimes, it just takes time. I was an over-sensitive kid, and physical hits often registered emotionally for me. My body would cry even though it didn't really hurt and I wasn't really mad or angry. It just... happened. And I grew out of it.

And anyway, for all this bullshit toughen-them-boys-up talk, I think a blanket statement could be made that all children (ALL OF THEM) need some resilience and toughness and grit. The fact that it's demanded of boys and demeaned in girls is a throwback to half a century ago, so let's try to drag ourselves into this millennium and stop with the caveman attitudes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, most of these posts are from women, so take what they say with a grain of salt as they know nothing about what it is like to be a boy.
First, don't blame yourself. Guys in the US have become puzzified over the last 20+ years. It is worse among kids not playing sports and it is far worse in urban areas

Second, forget about these stupid books and role playing garbage.

Third, your kids need to mentally overcome this fear now, as this will likely lead to other issues down the road. This is what happens when boys are treated like girls. I like what the counselor said above about kids wrestling with their father, but that is just a start. I think anything with physical contact will help. It doesn't necessarily have to be tae Kwon do or karate because sparring is so light that nobody really takes much damage. Wrestling or football would be great. Some conflict among kids can be really healthy. For example, punching someone in the face is a good way to build self esteem and set boundaries in certain situations.

I think this post ticks me off the most because it glorifies the old days when men were men and women just made dinner and laid on their backs. For the love of god, you think it's healthy to punch people in the face to build self esteem.

Over-sensitivity is not what happens when boys are treated like girls, it's what happens when ANY kid's brain is wired to be sensitive. I think OP is doing great by recognizing this in her kids and asking the right questions. Sometimes, it just takes time. I was an over-sensitive kid, and physical hits often registered emotionally for me. My body would cry even though it didn't really hurt and I wasn't really mad or angry. It just... happened. And I grew out of it.

And anyway, for all this bullshit toughen-them-boys-up talk, I think a blanket statement could be made that all children (ALL OF THEM) need some resilience and toughness and grit. The fact that it's demanded of boys and demeaned in girls is a throwback to half a century ago, so let's try to drag ourselves into this millennium and stop with the caveman attitudes.

I am one of the posters that said they need to fix this.

Crying regularly over perceived slights and typical active play is not a good trait no matter yow sensitive a kid is.

I would say the same thing if OP had girls. 8 year old is too opd to be crying like this on a regular basis, and if he doesn't outgrow it he is going to open himself up to bullying in a few years.

And yes, crying all the time is not typical for boys. OP has received some good, practical suggestion, not just useless theory that boys need to be more like girls.

[Anonymous]

Frankly, I'm concerned that op is one of those mothers who secretly wishes she had girls, and doesn't understand or appreciate little boys.

And yes, op, when you have boys, your job is to raise competent men. If you don't get a handle on this, yours are going to get eaten alive by middle school. And it will be largely your fault.

[Anonymous]

I have boys the same age, and have found that giving them lots of opportunity to work out their own boundaries without stepping in has made them much better at negotiating these kinds of things with friends. Yes, having all the neighborhood kids over at once can get chaotic, so it can work best to give them practice with fewer kids, but I think the best way to help your kids navigate this is not to completely avoid this kind of physical play, or directly oversee it, but to give them freedom to practice setting their own boundaries and working things out. Stand back and listen from another room, even if voices get raised and there are some tears. If kids come running to with their problems, remind them ice packs are in the fridge, offer a strategy or two (maybe you should find something else to play for a while? why don't you ask Johnny if he wants to play on the swings or get out a game?) if they need help, but otherwise send them back to the playmates and disengage. If they choose to go off and read a book, or sit sulking for awhile, that's fine, but it's their choice how to react and getting upset does not get rewarded with lots of extra attention or activity planning from you. If there are continuous problems, I give a warning, then shut everything down without assigning blame (send neighbors home, make older kids go play somewhere different than younger kids, etc).

I made a concerted effort to do this when my oldest was in K, and was impressed with how quickly he and his friends figured out how to resolve these types of issues. That's not to say there are never tears or hurt feelings (there sometimes are, particularly when there are 4+ boys present) but even then, if I stand back, 95% of the time they manage to work it out and have started advocating for each other. It's been a pretty cool process to observe. My older son in particular is not the toughest kid, or rowdiest, but has found his groove in the crowd and now will either redirect the play or find something to do on his own if he has trouble with the dynamics. I think too much parental interference, or redirection from rough play, can make the issue much worse in the long run. That's not to say I won't call out a kid who is doing something dangerous, or step in if one child seems to be getting unfairly targeted, but that's pretty rare.

[Anonymous]

I think we are in agreement. OP's kids are over-sensitive to roughhousing, PPs delivered some good advice and OP was very receptive, and this should not be limited to sensitive boys - as you said, an 8 yo girl should also not be crying on a regular basis.

My issue is that some people are calling this 'girly' behavior that isn't 'boy like' enough. Yeah, there will always be inherent differences in boys and girls as a whole, but we shouldn't shame the outliers for being 'too girly' or 'not girly enough.'

I hope it's clear I am not saying 'boys need to be more like girls.'

Address the issues at hand without adding the baggage of gender expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a father with sons. We're black so my view on aggressive behavior is probably different than others.

I make it 100 percent clear that my sons are not to lay a hand on anyone. When they were kids I made it clear that they need to steer completely away from rough housing, etc. I do this because they are big guys and when shit goes sideways -- like it inevitably will -- they will never, ever get the benefit of the doubt of "boys being boys."

That said, my sons are great athletes, good students, respectful and keep themselves out of trouble. They are older now, high school and college, but I drill it into them -- they cannot behave in an aggressive way, ever. It's not safe and life threatening at worse.

This is the sort of category of parenting that I put things like partying, drinking, drugs, etc. Sure, do kids rough house? Yeah. But when your son breaks some other kids bone (or worse) and your ass is sued or your son is arrested (because this happens on the regular for fighting in public schools for example), my guys are not going to get the benefit of the doubt and their lives could be ruined.

But go ahead on about the wussification of men, PPs. It's easy to be a bad ass, pick fights, be aggressive, walk around with your guns (or whatever "macho" man violent thing you do to show the world you're a man) when you know that you won't be murdered for it.

Just wanted to say I totally get how different things are for Black men. It's a very sad testament to where we are as a country, but unfortunately very, very true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't agree with the PPs who are criticizing you for the playdates ending. If the kid is upset and ready to go, fine. I think it depends on the situation, but it's perfectly okay for kids to have limits and to want to take a break if things get to be too much. Stop for a moment and think about what the rhetoric would be if these were girls who not comfortable with a certain level of physicality or aggression. People would not be saying to "suck it up" and "boys will be boys" because we (hopefully, some of us) have now learned that this is exactly what perpetuates rape culture. I don't see why it's any different with boys. Boys have a right to have limits and to want the aggressive behavior to be curbed at some point.

I would support them as best you can and help them to see that they can say no and walk away when they want to, but that it doesn't have to be a big deal. They don't have to end a playdate because of it, unless the other person isn't willing to accept their "no." Help them learn how to say they need a break and go get some water or do something else for a few minutes to calm down and get away from it, and if they feel like going back to roughhousing, they can.

But if they are consistently crying to the point of having to go home after every time or nearly every time they get together with other boys, especially as old as these boys are, then one of two things are happening:

A) OPs boys are both being bullied every time they play with other boys (Not at all what she said)

Or

B) OPs boys are over reacting and possibly being coddled by mom (See OPs title of her post)

I am around boys that age and older All. The. Time.

And I have one sensitive, thoughtful boy and one sporty social boy. There is no way that the neighborhood boys are cosistently playing so unusually rough that OPs kids are always leaving crying to the point of having to stop the get togethers and the hanging out. Assuming we are talking about normal, active boys, there is no way they are playing that rough allthe time. If they were, more boys than OPs would also be coming home crying on a regular basis.

So OP really needs to look at these two things because they require different solutions. Is it bullying? That needs to be dealt with swiftly.

If it is not bullying, then her boys' over reactions needs to be fixed before it turns into bullying or isolation from the other boys. If her boys keep crying and running home over everything, eventually they are going to make themselves targets or the other kids are not going to want to play with them. Which might be fine, or it might not be.

But the over sensitive crying needs to stop.

OP here. It's definitely not every time, not even the majority of the times, but there have been times they've been too upset to recover and get back into playing. But to me, it's enough of a problem that I need to address it

There you go. Physical wrestling contact between men and boys is not their normal. It is confusing and scary for them. Fofor e boys that have this kind of physical male interaction, wrestling and physicality is nor only OK, but it is a way they bond.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a father with sons. We're black so my view on aggressive behavior is probably different than others.

I make it 100 percent clear that my sons are not to lay a hand on anyone. When they were kids I made it clear that they need to steer completely away from rough housing, etc. I do this because they are big guys and when shit goes sideways -- like it inevitably will -- they will never, ever get the benefit of the doubt of "boys being boys."

That said, my sons are great athletes, good students, respectful and keep themselves out of trouble. They are older now, high school and college, but I drill it into them -- they cannot behave in an aggressive way, ever. It's not safe and life threatening at worse.

This is the sort of category of parenting that I put things like partying, drinking, drugs, etc. Sure, do kids rough house? Yeah. But when your son breaks some other kids bone (or worse) and your ass is sued or your son is arrested (because this happens on the regular for fighting in public schools for example), my guys are not going to get the benefit of the doubt and their lives could be ruined.

But go ahead on about the wussification of men, PPs. It's easy to be a bad ass, pick fights, be aggressive, walk around with your guns (or whatever "macho" man violent thing you do to show the world you're a man) when you know that you won't be murdered for it.

OP here - thanks for this perspective. I can't imagine raising black sons and the fear I would have for them now and in the future.

[Anonymous]

Thanks everyone for your input. I like the idea of role playing, and am already doing a lot of the things suggested, so I hope that this will resolve over time with the strategies put in place. Also - just to point out - there are plenty of happy successful men in the world who aren't aggressive and weren't into aggressive play, and while I'm Ok with aggressive play, and would like my kids to have thicker skin, I'm not going to try to smoosh my kids into a mold that doesn't fit them.

And to the PP who says I secretly wanted girls - LOL! no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father with sons. We're black so my view on aggressive behavior is probably different than others.

I make it 100 percent clear that my sons are not to lay a hand on anyone. When they were kids I made it clear that they need to steer completely away from rough housing, etc. I do this because they are big guys and when shit goes sideways -- like it inevitably will -- they will never, ever get the benefit of the doubt of "boys being boys."

That said, my sons are great athletes, good students, respectful and keep themselves out of trouble. They are older now, high school and college, but I drill it into them -- they cannot behave in an aggressive way, ever. It's not safe and life threatening at worse.

This is the sort of category of parenting that I put things like partying, drinking, drugs, etc. Sure, do kids rough house? Yeah. But when your son breaks some other kids bone (or worse) and your ass is sued or your son is arrested (because this happens on the regular for fighting in public schools for example), my guys are not going to get the benefit of the doubt and their lives could be ruined.

But go ahead on about the wussification of men, PPs. It's easy to be a bad ass, pick fights, be aggressive, walk around with your guns (or whatever "macho" man violent thing you do to show the world you're a man) when you know that you won't be murdered for it.

OP here - thanks for this perspective. I can't imagine raising black sons and the fear I would have for them now and in the future.

Thanks, OP. I didn't mean to derail the thread, but I get so frustrated when I see people say violent behavior and aggression is just a thing boys and men do. I get doubly mad when people start spouting off about men turning into women because they aren't aggressive and violent like they were in the good 'ol days.

It's a thing certain men are allowed to get away with, sure. But that's because we allow -- certain -- men and boys to be violent, to be aggressors, etc.

My kids know damn well this isn't true. A man can be a man without having to lay his hands on ANYONE. A man can be a man without being violent. A man is just a person with a penis. The rest of this, the being a decent human, to surviving in a world that isn't fair and is dangerous -- more so for my children -- is the job we all try to do as parents.

I know if I get in a fist fight with an idiot with a gun and am murdered that society will blame me for my death. That's why this macho violence bullshit just gets me. It's ridiculous and it's a false equivalency. I've been called a pussy for calling the police on someone asshole who's threatening me. But you know what? That idiot had a gun, and a history of domestic violence arrests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks everyone for your input. I like the idea of role playing, and am already doing a lot of the things suggested, so I hope that this will resolve over time with the strategies put in place. Also - just to point out - there are plenty of happy successful men in the world who aren't aggressive and weren't into aggressive play, and while I'm Ok with aggressive play, and would like my kids to have thicker skin, I'm not going to try to smoosh my kids into a mold that doesn't fit them.

And to the PP who says I secretly wanted girls - LOL! no.

The problem is that you are definining perfectly normal play and perfectly normal boys as "aggressive."

If your boys are the only ones consistently crying about it, then the play is not aggressive. It is normal. Active play does not equal aggressive play.

Until you fix your attitude about what is "aggressive" then this problem is not going away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father with sons. We're black so my view on aggressive behavior is probably different than others.

I make it 100 percent clear that my sons are not to lay a hand on anyone. When they were kids I made it clear that they need to steer completely away from rough housing, etc. I do this because they are big guys and when shit goes sideways -- like it inevitably will -- they will never, ever get the benefit of the doubt of "boys being boys."

That said, my sons are great athletes, good students, respectful and keep themselves out of trouble. They are older now, high school and college, but I drill it into them -- they cannot behave in an aggressive way, ever. It's not safe and life threatening at worse.

This is the sort of category of parenting that I put things like partying, drinking, drugs, etc. Sure, do kids rough house? Yeah. But when your son breaks some other kids bone (or worse) and your ass is sued or your son is arrested (because this happens on the regular for fighting in public schools for example), my guys are not going to get the benefit of the doubt and their lives could be ruined.

But go ahead on about the wussification of men, PPs. It's easy to be a bad ass, pick fights, be aggressive, walk around with your guns (or whatever "macho" man violent thing you do to show the world you're a man) when you know that you won't be murdered for it.

OP here - thanks for this perspective. I can't imagine raising black sons and the fear I would have for them now and in the future.

Thanks, OP. I didn't mean to derail the thread, but I get so frustrated when I see people say violent behavior and aggression is just a thing boys and men do. I get doubly mad when people start spouting off about men turning into women because they aren't aggressive and violent like they were in the good 'ol days.

It's a thing certain men are allowed to get away with, sure. But that's because we allow -- certain -- men and boys to be violent, to be aggressors, etc.

My kids know damn well this isn't true. A man can be a man without having to lay his hands on ANYONE. A man can be a man without being violent. A man is just a person with a penis. The rest of this, the being a decent human, to surviving in a world that isn't fair and is dangerous -- more so for my children -- is the job we all try to do as parents.

I know if I get in a fist fight with an idiot with a gun and am murdered that society will blame me for my death. That's why this macho violence bullshit just gets me. It's ridiculous and it's a false equivalency. I've been called a pussy for calling the police on someone asshole who's threatening me. But you know what? That idiot had a gun, and a history of domestic violence arrests.

Np here. Just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write this out rather than just say a generic "check your privilege." I don't even have boys, but this is just a good reminder for me to think about the different standards society holds to peoples behavior based on the color of their skin. Reminds me I need to learn a lot more and get more politically active in the social justice realm.

For op, i also like the couple pps suggestions for giving your kids language to get out of a situation where the rough housing gets to be too much. And letting the kids solve their own problems without parental intervening at the moment, just ongoing coaching.

My girls are younger but generally play more roughly than their friends, including the boys. I work with them a lot on empathy, stressing the importance of trying to " mind read" how their playmates are feeling, even before their friends say stop. Before a wrestling or tickling game starts (this is generally with same age cousins, not really with school friends who tend to be more hands off) you get consent. And once someone says stop when a game involves physicality, you stop immediately. Role play is really helpful here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I would focus on your kids getting involved in a sport like karate to get more resiliance.

I would also focus on more one on one playing and not the big neighborhood gang playing if they are really that upset by rough play. If they are playing in a big group of boys, it is going to get rough at times. That is how boys that age play.

Also look at how you respind to the rough play. Do you give them an incentive to getting upset over rough play? For example, if you son comes in crying that someone threw the ball too hard or shoved him during capture the flag, do you immediately react in an indignant way about what happened, then cuddle or comfort your kid? Or do you kiss the bump then tell him to brush it off and go play? It could very well be that you are reinforcing your kids' (for lack of a better word) wimpiness when they play, which in turn makes them continue to react with sensitivity which can in turn make them more of a target.

100% this. Growing up, my parents never intervened when my brother or I came home upset. It was for us to work out among our peers. No calling Johnny's mom because he threw worms in my hair or pushed me off my bike (both actually happened). It was "go back outside and play" after a brief cool down period. We were always taught to stand up for ourselves. It worked. None of us are emotionally scarred and some of the meaner kids growing up actually ended up being my friends because as time went on and we grew up together, we matured and buried the hatchet over stupid stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father with sons. We're black so my view on aggressive behavior is probably different than others.

I make it 100 percent clear that my sons are not to lay a hand on anyone. When they were kids I made it clear that they need to steer completely away from rough housing, etc. I do this because they are big guys and when shit goes sideways -- like it inevitably will -- they will never, ever get the benefit of the doubt of "boys being boys."

That said, my sons are great athletes, good students, respectful and keep themselves out of trouble. They are older now, high school and college, but I drill it into them -- they cannot behave in an aggressive way, ever. It's not safe and life threatening at worse.

This is the sort of category of parenting that I put things like partying, drinking, drugs, etc. Sure, do kids rough house? Yeah. But when your son breaks some other kids bone (or worse) and your ass is sued or your son is arrested (because this happens on the regular for fighting in public schools for example), my guys are not going to get the benefit of the doubt and their lives could be ruined.

But go ahead on about the wussification of men, PPs. It's easy to be a bad ass, pick fights, be aggressive, walk around with your guns (or whatever "macho" man violent thing you do to show the world you're a man) when you know that you won't be murdered for it.

Just wanted to say I totally get how different things are for Black men. It's a very sad testament to where we are as a country, but unfortunately very, very true.

I too understand how it is totally different for Black men. Your kids are about 10x more likely to be murdered, and the person doing the shooting is almost always black. How honorable of you to tell your kids not to fight kids that are much smaller than your "very athletic" kids. And nobody in my neighborhood is walking around committing felonies with guns. Who are you talking about?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a father with sons. We're black so my view on aggressive behavior is probably different than others.

I make it 100 percent clear that my sons are not to lay a hand on anyone. When they were kids I made it clear that they need to steer completely away from rough housing, etc. I do this because they are big guys and when shit goes sideways -- like it inevitably will -- they will never, ever get the benefit of the doubt of "boys being boys."

That said, my sons are great athletes, good students, respectful and keep themselves out of trouble. They are older now, high school and college, but I drill it into them -- they cannot behave in an aggressive way, ever. It's not safe and life threatening at worse.

This is the sort of category of parenting that I put things like partying, drinking, drugs, etc. Sure, do kids rough house? Yeah. But when your son breaks some other kids bone (or worse) and your ass is sued or your son is arrested (because this happens on the regular for fighting in public schools for example), my guys are not going to get the benefit of the doubt and their lives could be ruined.

But go ahead on about the wussification of men, PPs. It's easy to be a bad ass, pick fights, be aggressive, walk around with your guns (or whatever "macho" man violent thing you do to show the world you're a man) when you know that you won't be murdered for it.

I am so sorry this is the world your boys were born into and have to deal with. I hope we can be creative and motivated enough to continue to work on changing it for them.