Logistics of separation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Therapy for you before you initiate any sort of separation or divorce.

I agree with the read of many others here. This isn't going to be an ideal situation for you. You'll need to come to terms with 50/50 custody as a very real most likely possibility before you start any of this.

The vindicative in-laws don't help. Are they loaded too? They may bankroll his divorce. It can make it incredibly difficult to settle, because you can't lean on the marital or co-parenting relationship to play nice when people outside the marriage have a vested interest. They could ultimately lose you a lot of money on top of everything else you're losing.

OP here. I appreciate the reply.

Yes, in-laws are very wealthy and would be the ones advising him (and it wouldn't be amicable advice coming from them) and would be the ones to back him financially and emotionally.

My parents are also well off but not as much as his parents are. My parents are also not vindictive at all, unlike his.

Thanks for chiming in

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is the guy even going to WANT custody?

Yes because he won’t want to pay his ex wife more money. He will find a new wife or use his parents for childcare.

Courts will not care about your gripes op.

OP here. I imagine he'd say yes and that he couldn't imagine being around his kids... despite near constant negativity and being physically absent and mentally checked out. Definitely would be a pride and image thing for him.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So you pushed him to have more kids than he wanted, and you don’t work, and now you want him to share in parenting and you’re surprised he’s not into it?

OP here. No, having the amount of kids that we do was a joint decision. No one was forced into anything.

Also, I don't understand how a parent, male or female, is excused from parenting duties, no matter their feelings? Guess I'm "old school" there..? 🤷🏼‍♀️

Lastly, I work my tail off (to put it lightly) to take care of all of our kids. Hardest f*****g job ever and no, I don't get paid but they doesn't take away from the fact that I *do* work, it just isn't outside the home, so it's always dismissed.

So what’s his excuse then? Has he ever assisted with the kids?

OP here.

The amount of times he has taken the initiative to take care of our kids, I can count on two hands. Even when he sees me struggling, he doesn't step up.

He doesn't even pick up our baby when crying - if I am unable to at the moment, I have to ask him to pick up the baby so that baby doesn't end up spitting up everywhere due to the crying - I mean, who is like that?

On weekends, he won't feed the kids breakfast to allow me to get a quick bite. No, he has to take care of himself and get coffee first. At outings, I'm left to juggle everything between playtime, diapers, getting the kids food, nap time for baby, etc.

He doesn't step up to say he'll get the older kids food so I can feed baby or eat something for myself. He won't play with the kids despite their pleas.

He treats outings as purely social for himself while I'm left to do everything and not have much meaningful connection with family and friends when we are out.

Basically I have to be a nagging wife which everyone hates. Which further leads to more resentment.

I mean, he has a job that is high level enough to bring home a lot of income to support your family and let you stay home. Usually when one person works in a high pay job and the other is staying home with 3 kids, there's a pretty stark division of labor, and the sahp doesn't expect much involvement by the other parent.

You say you were in full agreement with him to have three kids, but if he's such a terrible father, you must have seen this with kid #1? And certainly by kid #2 right? Why'd you have three kids with him? I think you need to be honest with yourself about what the formal or informal expectation of division of labor was and if you're just mad now because you figured out how much work it is.

OP here. He works from home, so not to try and minimize, but he sits at a desk all day whereas I'm on my feet all day, every day.

At the end of his workday, he comes downstairs and zones out on his phone or tablet, texts co-workers, posts on forums, buys expensive toys, or simply enjoys his own hobbies.

I do not get a breather for myself or even a shower alone (because my oldest likes to come and visit with me to talk and sometimes get away when she is upset because of her dad).

So yes, it is hard work for myself, but I do expect to have a partner to help raise the kids. They are his kids, after all.

Well. If you want a breather, and you want him to raise the kids, then maybe divorce with 50/50 custody makes sense. He will figure it out.

OP here. Yeah, I know this will sound like I'm trying to have it both ways, but he cannot be trusted to take care of them himself while they are with him.

I would rather be exhausted continuing doing it all myself than subject my kids to his anger and negativity.

I might just have to slog it for another decade at least. That way our kids would be older.

Thanks for your reply

I can’t believe this. Poor kids.

Sooooo do the two of you even speak to each other?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you pushed him to have more kids than he wanted, and you don’t work, and now you want him to share in parenting and you’re surprised he’s not into it?

OP here. No, having the amount of kids that we do was a joint decision. No one was forced into anything.

Also, I don't understand how a parent, male or female, is excused from parenting duties, no matter their feelings? Guess I'm "old school" there..? 🤷🏼‍♀️

Lastly, I work my tail off (to put it lightly) to take care of all of our kids. Hardest f*****g job ever and no, I don't get paid but they doesn't take away from the fact that I *do* work, it just isn't outside the home, so it's always dismissed.

So what’s his excuse then? Has he ever assisted with the kids?

OP here.

The amount of times he has taken the initiative to take care of our kids, I can count on two hands. Even when he sees me struggling, he doesn't step up.

He doesn't even pick up our baby when crying - if I am unable to at the moment, I have to ask him to pick up the baby so that baby doesn't end up spitting up everywhere due to the crying - I mean, who is like that?

On weekends, he won't feed the kids breakfast to allow me to get a quick bite. No, he has to take care of himself and get coffee first. At outings, I'm left to juggle everything between playtime, diapers, getting the kids food, nap time for baby, etc.

He doesn't step up to say he'll get the older kids food so I can feed baby or eat something for myself. He won't play with the kids despite their pleas.

He treats outings as purely social for himself while I'm left to do everything and not have much meaningful connection with family and friends when we are out.

Basically I have to be a nagging wife which everyone hates. Which further leads to more resentment.

I mean, he has a job that is high level enough to bring home a lot of income to support your family and let you stay home. Usually when one person works in a high pay job and the other is staying home with 3 kids, there's a pretty stark division of labor, and the sahp doesn't expect much involvement by the other parent.

You say you were in full agreement with him to have three kids, but if he's such a terrible father, you must have seen this with kid #1? And certainly by kid #2 right? Why'd you have three kids with him? I think you need to be honest with yourself about what the formal or informal expectation of division of labor was and if you're just mad now because you figured out how much work it is.

OP here. He works from home, so not to try and minimize, but he sits at a desk all day whereas I'm on my feet all day, every day.

At the end of his workday, he comes downstairs and zones out on his phone or tablet, texts co-workers, posts on forums, buys expensive toys, or simply enjoys his own hobbies.

I do not get a breather for myself or even a shower alone (because my oldest likes to come and visit with me to talk and sometimes get away when she is upset because of her dad).

So yes, it is hard work for myself, but I do expect to have a partner to help raise the kids. They are his kids, after all.

Well. If you want a breather, and you want him to raise the kids, then maybe divorce with 50/50 custody makes sense. He will figure it out.

OP here. Yeah, I know this will sound like I'm trying to have it both ways, but he cannot be trusted to take care of them himself while they are with him.

I would rather be exhausted continuing doing it all myself than subject my kids to his anger and negativity.

I might just have to slog it for another decade at least. That way our kids would be older.

Thanks for your reply

I can’t believe this. Poor kids.

Sooooo do the two of you even speak to each other?

OP here. Not much than is necessary, it seems. We've been together since our teenage years but this man doesn't even know me. Never gets me anything for a birthday or mother's day (I don't make a big deal about holidays or the like, except for my kids' b-days) but he says because I don't have a hobby that he doesn't know what to get me. Doesn't seem to know my likes to muster something up. I get him gifts for him so I don't know.

I am not a materialistic person. It just hurts me to know that he doesn't even know me as a person, despite being together for nearly two decades. Just sad to me.

I've been pulling away over the last two months because I'm just tired of giving myself only to be ignored and seemingly no improvement on interacting with our kids or any effort to be emotionally connected to me.

[Anonymous]

Didn't we all answer this 3 weeks ago?

OP, the worst of all options is an informal separation, especially with you leaving (abandoning) the home. Mainly, this gives him 6 weeks to start planning the divorce and getting miles ahead of you with hiding assets and starting his legal strategy to go after YOU for custody.

I advised you to see a lawyer quietly now for advice on whether to get a job, whether to file for divorce and when, and what is the likely outcome.

You had better assume on paper and as far as minimizing child support, he's going to ask for Full custody (to scare you) and at the least he'll negotiate for 50% (minimize CS).

You can ask for 100% custody, but unless he wants to give it to you (he probably won't), none of these complaints are going to go anywhere.

Maybe if had an arrest record, DUIs, documented drug overdoses, you have a chance. But he provides well and you want him to do more childcare and pay more attention to you? You are going to make zero impact with that tactic.

That's why you need to speak to an attorney. Suggesting this temporary separation is a foolish idea that's going to mean you lose badly in the end.

You need sound legal advice on whether you are ready to file for divorce. Do you have all the paperwork copied and secured off-site that a PP listed? If not, you're not even ready to talk to an attorney.

Do you have access to all checking accounts, credit cards and bill paying? If not, you're going to tip your hand if you suddenly start insisting on access.

As I said 3 weeks ago, you have a choice of problems for the next 15 years. Suck it up, stop thinking things are going to change, be glad he's earning enough to pay the bills, seek some outlets for you alone to find some peace and joy in everyday life. Accepts he's going to be a loser husband and parent and stop expecting anything from him and just do it all yourself (like you would with 100% custody) and don't walk around angry.

OR

File for divorce, probably come out on the short end financially, probably move to a crappy apartment that costs as much as your mortgage, lose a ton of any savings to attorney fees (could easily be 100K with a big fight), hope to get 50% custody, potentially lose half the time seeing the kids, worry if he's treating them ok, be ready for a new girlfriend to move in, maybe a new baby coming along, prepare for 15 years of court fighting, work full time and barely make enough to pay some basic bills.

Those are your 2 choices for sets of problems.

What you need to do is stop thinking if you say or do this or that, he might change. Couples Counseling? Sure, but I'll bet there's a 99% chance he refuses and if he even goes, he won't do it in good faith. You've gotten yourself into a bad marriage and had 2 extra kids after 4 years of warning from the 1st kid.

And repeat, do NOT do a stupid separation. That's like saying I was going to get a step ahead of you and file for a surprise divorce, but now I'm going to give you warning so that you can file for a surprise divorce on me, and get a mile ahead of me in the nasty divorce game.

Realize you have no good options and you need to think carefully then pick one.

I also sense some boundary issues with your oldest. I suspect you are using her as an ally and emotional support. Very damaging. And set up the boundary that you get to use your bathroom and shower alone. She will be fine sitting in her room with mean daddy working upstairs. I think she is picking up that she gets attention from you when she cries about daddy being mean. There is a fine line here of supporting her and turning this into a very unhealthy dynamic between you and her. You probably also need a counselor who can give you parenting advice for dealing with difficult situations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish you well but it does not sound like you have thought this through.

I would encourage you to decide if you want to be married, or not. Separation is what? Just chaos and disruption. Divorce him or stay, but figure out your end goal for the sake of your children and yourself.

Do you have a way to support yourself if you can no longer rely on your husband’s income?

OP here.

So I feel somewhat sure, but my thought process was to separate in order to really force ourselves to figure out what we want. I think we definitely need the space, though.

I'm fortunate to have family that I know would help me and the kids.

No, that is a bad idea. You don't separate to feel it out. It is incredibly disruptive and anxiety producing for kids.

I don't know how you think divorce is going to solve this. You will have an entire set of new problems.
Your living standard for all will decrease drastically...you are not working. You will likely get 50/50 custody.

You are not thinking this through.

I am divorced but could afford to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish you well but it does not sound like you have thought this through.

I would encourage you to decide if you want to be married, or not. Separation is what? Just chaos and disruption. Divorce him or stay, but figure out your end goal for the sake of your children and yourself.

Do you have a way to support yourself if you can no longer rely on your husband’s income?

OP here.

So I feel somewhat sure, but my thought process was to separate in order to really force ourselves to figure out what we want. I think we definitely need the space, though.

I'm fortunate to have family that I know would help me and the kids.

You are going to get a lot of comments and feedback saying that you’re nuts to leave him for this. But I agree with you because I grew up with a father like this (maybe worse) and things improved significantly after they divorced.

Are you prepared if he becomes vindictive and tries to completely screw you? It happens more than you think, especially with SAHMs. It sounds like you have wealthy parents to foot your legal bills which is fortunate. Have you thought through what 50/50 custody would mean for your children?

Of course there is a chance that this chat and separation will have him see the error of his ways and change, but I think that is an unlikely outcome.

OP here. I'm so sorry you endured a traumatic childhood as you did 😞

And I'd like to think that he wouldn't become vindictive, since he thanked me for not leaving 2 months prior. But.. his parents are *extremely* vindictive people and they would be his #1 advisors through any potential actions. So.. it's very possible, unfortunately.

I think I don't want to face the possibility of not having my kids with me 24/7 as I do now. It's so incredibly hard to imagine it any other way.

If it's at all possible, me having 100% physical and 50% legal would be a dream. But I don't know what it would take to try and fight for that and what would need to be proven. Ugh.

If he wants 50%, he will get 50%. You are not thinking this through.

[Anonymous]

OP here.

I appreciate all of the responses. I guess I'll slog it for another 10-15 and pray that counseling can help us, although unlikely because he never wants to try it.

Thanks, all.

[Anonymous]

OP, I'm the one who said you have a choice between 2 sets of problems.

You are in a difficult place. I think if things can remain "neutral", maybe slogging it out for 13ish years is a plan. If you can get to a place where you are not mourning over a husband not understanding you after 20 years, if you can accept he isn't going to tell you that you're beautiful, isn't going to get you thoughtful gifts, isn't going to thank you for all the things you do for the kids...

If you can get to the place where you stop expecting anything from him, and resign yourself to this odd situation and maybe with counseling, get to the place where you aren't forever grieving, you may be able to get to a situation where you do it all, you don't ask or expect him to help, you don't expect loving gestures from him and you don't collapse over it when he doesn't, you get to a place where you are learning to be independent, find joy outside the home, bide your time, and maybe you can survive for 10-15 years.

But if you are not yet past grieving, it's going to be a long, sad 13 years, wishing, hoping, ruminating, getting disappointed, etc.

To make it independently in a so-called marriage, you have to separate emotionally and realize you are doing what you have to do, and maybe in 15 years, you can divorce and live a more authentic life.

What you can't do is wallow for 15 years. And during those 15 years, it is your mission to learn about your finances, savings, debts, taxes and not be in a gullible position, should divorce suddenly be forced upon you..

If you stay, you need private counseling to help you deal with your disappointing state in the situation, but learn to take power in knowing your finances, being ready for him to pull a fast one, and just hang out if it's "healthy" until time ages up the kids.

However, if it gets to an unhealthy point, where he is trashing you to the kids when you aren't around, insulting you in front of them, cheating on you in broad daylight, any physical violence, doing damaging things, at some point, you just have to take the lumps and divorce.

Just stop expecting anything nice from him and start working on your self image and confidence excluding his input, and let him start worrying about losing your support.

Oh I remember the days of thinking counseling will finally, maybe solve everything. No, when I finally dragged him there it was a fizzle. What a let down. Now my final hope was gone. So don't put too much hope that it will be the answer. It probably won't be.

Stay for now if you think you can stop expecting him to be nice and loving. But be ready to leave once it crosses the line into total traumatic situations that your kids don't need to see.

Best wishes to you.

[Anonymous]

He'll pretend and want to be father of the year when the new girlfriend comes around, and that is hard on everyone.

If you can figure out some way to make this work for now, do that. Get better at boundaries. This stuff doesn't get to this point over night.

That said, he needs to take responsibility and probably won't. It's miserable, but can you make yourself happy enough in other ways? Out source more household stuff? Spend more time out with mom friends?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm the one who said you have a choice between 2 sets of problems.

You are in a difficult place. I think if things can remain "neutral", maybe slogging it out for 13ish years is a plan. If you can get to a place where you are not mourning over a husband not understanding you after 20 years, if you can accept he isn't going to tell you that you're beautiful, isn't going to get you thoughtful gifts, isn't going to thank you for all the things you do for the kids...

If you can get to the place where you stop expecting anything from him, and resign yourself to this odd situation and maybe with counseling, get to the place where you aren't forever grieving, you may be able to get to a situation where you do it all, you don't ask or expect him to help, you don't expect loving gestures from him and you don't collapse over it when he doesn't, you get to a place where you are learning to be independent, find joy outside the home, bide your time, and maybe you can survive for 10-15 years.

But if you are not yet past grieving, it's going to be a long, sad 13 years, wishing, hoping, ruminating, getting disappointed, etc.

To make it independently in a so-called marriage, you have to separate emotionally and realize you are doing what you have to do, and maybe in 15 years, you can divorce and live a more authentic life.

What you can't do is wallow for 15 years. And during those 15 years, it is your mission to learn about your finances, savings, debts, taxes and not be in a gullible position, should divorce suddenly be forced upon you..

If you stay, you need private counseling to help you deal with your disappointing state in the situation, but learn to take power in knowing your finances, being ready for him to pull a fast one, and just hang out if it's "healthy" until time ages up the kids.

However, if it gets to an unhealthy point, where he is trashing you to the kids when you aren't around, insulting you in front of them, cheating on you in broad daylight, any physical violence, doing damaging things, at some point, you just have to take the lumps and divorce.

Just stop expecting anything nice from him and start working on your self image and confidence excluding his input, and let him start worrying about losing your support.

Oh I remember the days of thinking counseling will finally, maybe solve everything. No, when I finally dragged him there it was a fizzle. What a let down. Now my final hope was gone. So don't put too much hope that it will be the answer. It probably won't be.

Stay for now if you think you can stop expecting him to be nice and loving. But be ready to leave once it crosses the line into total traumatic situations that your kids don't need to see.

Best wishes to you.

OP here. I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

I don't think counseling will do much, except make the bank account smaller. But would still try on the off chance it may help.

My biggest concern over my own resentment, is his temper with the kids. He refuses to let them be kids - he doesn't like when they make noise or are running around (the latter isn't happening all the time). He doesn't seem to understand that kids will be kids. They are loud and messy. But I think our kids are fairly "tame" compared to others including family and friend kids.

I am very concerned about the relationship between our oldest and him and that he is inflicting lifelong damage to her self-esteem and just the ability to have a healthy relationship with him.

My relationship with my mom started going off the rails when I was just 6 years old. It has never recovered 30+ years later.

He likes things to be orderly but doesn't make an effort to help tidy or organize. He literally said I don't get up and spend time during the day to do it so that is why the house is a wreck (nevermind barely having a moment to eat, which isn't until later in the day).

So.. I hear what you're saying, it just makes me sad that I shouldn't expect to have an equal partner in life for companionship and as a parent.

I hope things are better for you now!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm the one who said you have a choice between 2 sets of problems.

You are in a difficult place. I think if things can remain "neutral", maybe slogging it out for 13ish years is a plan. If you can get to a place where you are not mourning over a husband not understanding you after 20 years, if you can accept he isn't going to tell you that you're beautiful, isn't going to get you thoughtful gifts, isn't going to thank you for all the things you do for the kids...

If you can get to the place where you stop expecting anything from him, and resign yourself to this odd situation and maybe with counseling, get to the place where you aren't forever grieving, you may be able to get to a situation where you do it all, you don't ask or expect him to help, you don't expect loving gestures from him and you don't collapse over it when he doesn't, you get to a place where you are learning to be independent, find joy outside the home, bide your time, and maybe you can survive for 10-15 years.

But if you are not yet past grieving, it's going to be a long, sad 13 years, wishing, hoping, ruminating, getting disappointed, etc.

To make it independently in a so-called marriage, you have to separate emotionally and realize you are doing what you have to do, and maybe in 15 years, you can divorce and live a more authentic life.

What you can't do is wallow for 15 years. And during those 15 years, it is your mission to learn about your finances, savings, debts, taxes and not be in a gullible position, should divorce suddenly be forced upon you..

If you stay, you need private counseling to help you deal with your disappointing state in the situation, but learn to take power in knowing your finances, being ready for him to pull a fast one, and just hang out if it's "healthy" until time ages up the kids.

However, if it gets to an unhealthy point, where he is trashing you to the kids when you aren't around, insulting you in front of them, cheating on you in broad daylight, any physical violence, doing damaging things, at some point, you just have to take the lumps and divorce.

Just stop expecting anything nice from him and start working on your self image and confidence excluding his input, and let him start worrying about losing your support.

Oh I remember the days of thinking counseling will finally, maybe solve everything. No, when I finally dragged him there it was a fizzle. What a let down. Now my final hope was gone. So don't put too much hope that it will be the answer. It probably won't be.

Stay for now if you think you can stop expecting him to be nice and loving. But be ready to leave once it crosses the line into total traumatic situations that your kids don't need to see.

Best wishes to you.

OP here. I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

I don't think counseling will do much, except make the bank account smaller. But would still try on the off chance it may help.

My biggest concern over my own resentment, is his temper with the kids. He refuses to let them be kids - he doesn't like when they make noise or are running around (the latter isn't happening all the time). He doesn't seem to understand that kids will be kids. They are loud and messy. But I think our kids are fairly "tame" compared to others including family and friend kids.

I am very concerned about the relationship between our oldest and him and that he is inflicting lifelong damage to her self-esteem and just the ability to have a healthy relationship with him.

My relationship with my mom started going off the rails when I was just 6 years old. It has never recovered 30+ years later.

He likes things to be orderly but doesn't make an effort to help tidy or organize. He literally said I don't get up and spend time during the day to do it so that is why the house is a wreck (nevermind barely having a moment to eat, which isn't until later in the day).

So.. I hear what you're saying, it just makes me sad that I shouldn't expect to have an equal partner in life for companionship and as a parent.

I hope things are better for you now!

Yes, things are better for me now. I remarried a man who not only loves and appreciates me, but tells me that. But it was not easy, dealing with my ex who hated me for standing up to him, then eventually my new husband's ex, who was happy to dump him, until she realized he found someone who loved and appreciated him, when she hadn't. Complicated.

But you can not count on meeting Prince Charming, and it's probably better you postpone any of that until the kids are adults.

Your ex is going to inflict damage on your kid(s) whether married to you or divorced from you, so let that settle in to your conscious. At least know you are witness to the specifics now while you live together. But it's not something you can stop or influence, married or divorced.

You are right about kids being kids. So stop feeling like you need to convince others about this. Take confidence in this that you are right, he is an idiot and you will never convince him otherwise, and there is no need to convince others. Just let his comments and criticisms blow right over you while you let the kids be kids. Remember he is the hands off parent, so his opinion doesn't count as much as yours. And if you are going to hang in for a dozen years, let this roll off your back. You can't choose the "hang for 13 years" choice if you are going to challenge him and try to show him you're right. You just have to take over, ignore him, tend to the kids and stay independent.

If you are sad, grieving, wishing, depressed, you need counseling and support as to how you weather through this long, long storm. If you stay, you have to get to the point where you separate your happiness from him and find it independently. Yeah, not typical, but it's either that or enter divorce warfare. Which you eventually may have to do, but use this time to get stronger personally.

He likes things orderly. Yeah, so what. Either things are messy and he nags, or if it works out, you straighten up, things are neat. But it has nothing to do with him. If this point causes him to insist on divorce, then you can't fight an uphill battle. Maybe that is what will happen. But if you are doing a normal workday and things are a mess, go to sleep. Let him rant. Move on. This is an example of a challenge where you have to let it roll on over your back. And if he blows up and leaves?, Well, there is your answer. This marriage can not withstand a stilted, distanced couple. Maybe it would have worked out, but possibly it's not. Then at least you won't feel like the decision is all you.

One way or another, I think things will work out for you if you can fight for your personal self to stand firm and proud. No matter what happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He'll pretend and want to be father of the year when the new girlfriend comes around, and that is hard on everyone.

If you can figure out some way to make this work for now, do that. Get better at boundaries. This stuff doesn't get to this point over night.

That said, he needs to take responsibility and probably won't. It's miserable, but can you make yourself happy enough in other ways? Out source more household stuff? Spend more time out with mom friends?

OP here. Yes, you're almost certainly right on your first point.

He unfortunately has everyone but me fooled. He will jump at the opportunity to help family (including mine), friends, co-workers, and neighbors. But not me 🙄

Fosters relationships with Internet strangers and people he's met only once or twice. Texts his co-workers in the evenings, even late at night sometimes, despite having talked with them throughout the workday.

Part of me just wants him to cheat so I'll have a clean break and reason to leave vs. my current situation of issues which is subjective based on who looks at it.

I have said instead of money being spent on expensive toys just for him, to hire an organizer to help us with clothes, kitchenware, and toys which are our biggest items in terms of clutter.

We aren't at all organized or tidy (not dirty, just chaotic) which leads to a lot of unnecessary stress trying to just find things.

He keeps refusing saying we don't need that and all an organizer will do is just point and say "organize this" and I'm like I don't think that's how it works..

But meanwhile he'll drop $1000-2000+ on something he wants just for himself. It's absolutely maddening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm the one who said you have a choice between 2 sets of problems.

You are in a difficult place. I think if things can remain "neutral", maybe slogging it out for 13ish years is a plan. If you can get to a place where you are not mourning over a husband not understanding you after 20 years, if you can accept he isn't going to tell you that you're beautiful, isn't going to get you thoughtful gifts, isn't going to thank you for all the things you do for the kids...

If you can get to the place where you stop expecting anything from him, and resign yourself to this odd situation and maybe with counseling, get to the place where you aren't forever grieving, you may be able to get to a situation where you do it all, you don't ask or expect him to help, you don't expect loving gestures from him and you don't collapse over it when he doesn't, you get to a place where you are learning to be independent, find joy outside the home, bide your time, and maybe you can survive for 10-15 years.

But if you are not yet past grieving, it's going to be a long, sad 13 years, wishing, hoping, ruminating, getting disappointed, etc.

To make it independently in a so-called marriage, you have to separate emotionally and realize you are doing what you have to do, and maybe in 15 years, you can divorce and live a more authentic life.

What you can't do is wallow for 15 years. And during those 15 years, it is your mission to learn about your finances, savings, debts, taxes and not be in a gullible position, should divorce suddenly be forced upon you..

If you stay, you need private counseling to help you deal with your disappointing state in the situation, but learn to take power in knowing your finances, being ready for him to pull a fast one, and just hang out if it's "healthy" until time ages up the kids.

However, if it gets to an unhealthy point, where he is trashing you to the kids when you aren't around, insulting you in front of them, cheating on you in broad daylight, any physical violence, doing damaging things, at some point, you just have to take the lumps and divorce.

Just stop expecting anything nice from him and start working on your self image and confidence excluding his input, and let him start worrying about losing your support.

Oh I remember the days of thinking counseling will finally, maybe solve everything. No, when I finally dragged him there it was a fizzle. What a let down. Now my final hope was gone. So don't put too much hope that it will be the answer. It probably won't be.

Stay for now if you think you can stop expecting him to be nice and loving. But be ready to leave once it crosses the line into total traumatic situations that your kids don't need to see.

Best wishes to you.

OP here. I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

I don't think counseling will do much, except make the bank account smaller. But would still try on the off chance it may help.

My biggest concern over my own resentment, is his temper with the kids. He refuses to let them be kids - he doesn't like when they make noise or are running around (the latter isn't happening all the time). He doesn't seem to understand that kids will be kids. They are loud and messy. But I think our kids are fairly "tame" compared to others including family and friend kids.

I am very concerned about the relationship between our oldest and him and that he is inflicting lifelong damage to her self-esteem and just the ability to have a healthy relationship with him.

My relationship with my mom started going off the rails when I was just 6 years old. It has never recovered 30+ years later.

He likes things to be orderly but doesn't make an effort to help tidy or organize. He literally said I don't get up and spend time during the day to do it so that is why the house is a wreck (nevermind barely having a moment to eat, which isn't until later in the day).

So.. I hear what you're saying, it just makes me sad that I shouldn't expect to have an equal partner in life for companionship and as a parent.

I hope things are better for you now!

Yes, things are better for me now. I remarried a man who not only loves and appreciates me, but tells me that. But it was not easy, dealing with my ex who hated me for standing up to him, then eventually my new husband's ex, who was happy to dump him, until she realized he found someone who loved and appreciated him, when she hadn't. Complicated.

But you can not count on meeting Prince Charming, and it's probably better you postpone any of that until the kids are adults.

Your ex is going to inflict damage on your kid(s) whether married to you or divorced from you, so let that settle in to your conscious. At least know you are witness to the specifics now while you live together. But it's not something you can stop or influence, married or divorced.

You are right about kids being kids. So stop feeling like you need to convince others about this. Take confidence in this that you are right, he is an idiot and you will never convince him otherwise, and there is no need to convince others. Just let his comments and criticisms blow right over you while you let the kids be kids. Remember he is the hands off parent, so his opinion doesn't count as much as yours. And if you are going to hang in for a dozen years, let this roll off your back. You can't choose the "hang for 13 years" choice if you are going to challenge him and try to show him you're right. You just have to take over, ignore him, tend to the kids and stay independent.

If you are sad, grieving, wishing, depressed, you need counseling and support as to how you weather through this long, long storm. If you stay, you have to get to the point where you separate your happiness from him and find it independently. Yeah, not typical, but it's either that or enter divorce warfare. Which you eventually may have to do, but use this time to get stronger personally.

He likes things orderly. Yeah, so what. Either things are messy and he nags, or if it works out, you straighten up, things are neat. But it has nothing to do with him. If this point causes him to insist on divorce, then you can't fight an uphill battle. Maybe that is what will happen. But if you are doing a normal workday and things are a mess, go to sleep. Let him rant. Move on. This is an example of a challenge where you have to let it roll on over your back. And if he blows up and leaves?, Well, there is your answer. This marriage can not withstand a stilted, distanced couple. Maybe it would have worked out, but possibly it's not. Then at least you won't feel like the decision is all you.

One way or another, I think things will work out for you if you can fight for your personal self to stand firm and proud. No matter what happens.

OP here. I really appreciate your reply, again.

The last two weeks or so I've been trying to focus more on myself. As silly as it sounds, I bought some new clothes (literally just t-shirts, long sleeve shirts, sweatshirts, and leggings) that actually have color to them.

I've historically been a dark clothing person (not goth, just black/gray/navy colored clothes) so I've been wanting to introduce actual color into my clothing.

I've always wanted to get my ear cartilages pierced and some small tattoos (just the birth flowers of my kids). Perhaps I'll finally be able to initiate something there.

I've been trying to stick to a morning routine, as well. In general trying to make myself feel cuter or better to help with my self-confidence/image.

I'm hoping that when I feel better, it'll also help my kids feel more confident, too, if that can even be a thing.

I'm really glad to hear you're in a mutually loving relationship! How wonderful for you - proud and happy for you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Didn't we all answer this 3 weeks ago?

OP, the worst of all options is an informal separation, especially with you leaving (abandoning) the home. Mainly, this gives him 6 weeks to start planning the divorce and getting miles ahead of you with hiding assets and starting his legal strategy to go after YOU for custody.

I advised you to see a lawyer quietly now for advice on whether to get a job, whether to file for divorce and when, and what is the likely outcome.

You had better assume on paper and as far as minimizing child support, he's going to ask for Full custody (to scare you) and at the least he'll negotiate for 50% (minimize CS).

You can ask for 100% custody, but unless he wants to give it to you (he probably won't), none of these complaints are going to go anywhere.

Maybe if had an arrest record, DUIs, documented drug overdoses, you have a chance. But he provides well and you want him to do more childcare and pay more attention to you? You are going to make zero impact with that tactic.

That's why you need to speak to an attorney. Suggesting this temporary separation is a foolish idea that's going to mean you lose badly in the end.

You need sound legal advice on whether you are ready to file for divorce. Do you have all the paperwork copied and secured off-site that a PP listed? If not, you're not even ready to talk to an attorney.

Do you have access to all checking accounts, credit cards and bill paying? If not, you're going to tip your hand if you suddenly start insisting on access.

As I said 3 weeks ago, you have a choice of problems for the next 15 years. Suck it up, stop thinking things are going to change, be glad he's earning enough to pay the bills, seek some outlets for you alone to find some peace and joy in everyday life. Accepts he's going to be a loser husband and parent and stop expecting anything from him and just do it all yourself (like you would with 100% custody) and don't walk around angry.

OR

File for divorce, probably come out on the short end financially, probably move to a crappy apartment that costs as much as your mortgage, lose a ton of any savings to attorney fees (could easily be 100K with a big fight), hope to get 50% custody, potentially lose half the time seeing the kids, worry if he's treating them ok, be ready for a new girlfriend to move in, maybe a new baby coming along, prepare for 15 years of court fighting, work full time and barely make enough to pay some basic bills.

Those are your 2 choices for sets of problems.

What you need to do is stop thinking if you say or do this or that, he might change. Couples Counseling? Sure, but I'll bet there's a 99% chance he refuses and if he even goes, he won't do it in good faith. You've gotten yourself into a bad marriage and had 2 extra kids after 4 years of warning from the 1st kid.

And repeat, do NOT do a stupid separation. That's like saying I was going to get a step ahead of you and file for a surprise divorce, but now I'm going to give you warning so that you can file for a surprise divorce on me, and get a mile ahead of me in the nasty divorce game.

Realize you have no good options and you need to think carefully then pick one.

I also sense some boundary issues with your oldest. I suspect you are using her as an ally and emotional support. Very damaging. And set up the boundary that you get to use your bathroom and shower alone. She will be fine sitting in her room with mean daddy working upstairs. I think she is picking up that she gets attention from you when she cries about daddy being mean. There is a fine line here of supporting her and turning this into a very unhealthy dynamic between you and her. You probably also need a counselor who can give you parenting advice for dealing with difficult situations.

PREACH