I recently realized that my 13 y.o. daughter is comparing her attractiveness to mine, so I need to step up my game

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These posters are mean.

OP, your DD is normal. My DD has a few "mom" categories:
1. Normal mom - probably what you are now.
2. Botox mom - mom who has way too much plastic surgery and big lips, dresses very nice and expensively
3. Pretty mom - thin, fit, naturally attractive
4. Doesn't care mom - the ones that let themselves go.

In her eyes I'm 3, I think. There isn't a whole lot of thought that goes into her evaluations, do don't put too much stock in it.

This is so messed up, I don’t even know where to begin. I would advise never telling anyone about this.

OP here. PP, girls do think in these categories, and to pretend otherwise is not helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The responses are divided between:

1. Wise people who know that appearances count and who can find ways to manage societal expectations as well as teen angst about same, so their daughters are aware what portion of intelligence, kindness and looks may contribute to their future success.

2. Insecure, foolish, women triggered by the fact others may or may not be prettier, and who strenuously insist that girls should be raised to be blind to appearances and only look at the beauty within. WELL, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

Huh? The posters who aren't falling over themselves to brag about how hot they are (#1) are not insecure foolish women. They are women who take issue with the fact that OP wants to compete with her teen daughter in some sort of fictional beauty contest. They are taking issue with the fact that OP clearly has deep seated issues with her own mothers appearance, and has now passed that along to her young child.

DP, but anyone criticizing OP for wanting to compete with her DD is misreading. As OP has explained, it's not about feeling threatened by her DD or wanting to be seen as better looking than her (at all, OP hasn't said anything even hinting about this).

As OP put it, and some of us have properly understood, it's about wanting her DD to feel proud of her mom and not embarrassed by her looks. It's about feeling pressure to meet her DD's expectations about how women look. Now, that's complicated and I can see an argument against it (her DD is subscribing to culture expectations of women, should OP be trying to meet those expectations?) but I also totally understand it as a mom to a daughter. I don't feel in competition with my DD at all and I don't need her to love or approve of my appearance all the time, but I also don't want her to be embarrassed by me (as I was at times by my own mom who had a mental health disorder and put no effort into her appearance).

With my mom, I worried that people would see her and judge me by what they thought of her. And I knew enough about the world to know my mom was judged harshly. Now it would be great if I was so self-possessed and empathetic as a teenager that I could have said "screw them, it's none of their business and if they judge us, their loss." But I was also raised by a woman with a mental health disorder and had my own insecurities and issues due to years of neglect and other issues, and instead I deeply feared that my mom would bar me from entry into functional communities because they'd see her and decide I wasn't the right kind of people. I knew I would need community and support in life because I didn't have it in my family, and I saw my mom as an obstacle to getting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The responses are divided between:

1. Wise people who know that appearances count and who can find ways to manage societal expectations as well as teen angst about same, so their daughters are aware what portion of intelligence, kindness and looks may contribute to their future success.

2. Insecure, foolish, women triggered by the fact others may or may not be prettier, and who strenuously insist that girls should be raised to be blind to appearances and only look at the beauty within. WELL, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

OP here. Thanks, PP, I love this! I am sure that no woman who puts in the effort to look good would be in the category no. 2 that you described.

It is hypocritical to claim that "only inner beauty counts". Physical beauty matters, and is a huge advantage.

Teenage girls talk a lot about clothes/makeup/appearance. My daughter is actually one of the few who does not. However, she does want to look pretty. This is understandable, and nothing to restrain.

So, to the other PPs: please do write me that I am raising my daughter to be superficial. She is a straight A student at the best private school in the area.

You should look in on some of her notes from her writing classes then. The first part of your sentence is not negated by the second part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll be blunt, OP: your post gives vibes of deep-seated insecurity with appearances and body issues.

Your job as a mom with regard to your daughter's body is to 1.) encourage your daughter to have good hygiene/nutrition/exercise habits and avoid drugs and alcohol, and 2.) have a good mental health approach and relationship to body stuff.
For the record, if dad is in the picture, this is his job, too.

If you want to up your game for YOU that's fine/great!

But comparing yourself to other moms, especially relative to size and age, is doing your daughter zero favors.

Also, be was pretty as you can be: your daughter will likely still be somewhat embarrassed by you for a variety of silly teen reasons.

Ha ha. Very true. I am one of the younger, "prettier" mothers in my daughter's circle, and she still pokes fun at me. Very rarely, I will come down in the morning, and she will look me up and down approvingly and say "you look nice today". HIGH PRAISE from a 13 year old girl!!! Nothing makes her happier than when I have an event and *I ask her opinion on what I should wear*. It sets her up so much! She has an eye for color, and usually her suggestions are appropriate for a 40-something mother.

Maybe you could ask your daughter to look through some of your outfits, and that will teach her to dress you for the figure you have, not the figure she wishes you had? And maybe you could go shopping together.

And another shallow twit.

This is why women just can't break the cycle. Because of other women.

Shallow Twit you replied to. You're very amusing, PP. I'm a research scientist and it may be the first time in my life I've been called shallow. Maybe the shallow person isn't the one you think, but I don't expect you to engage in such a deep self-reflection. You rock on with your surface-level virtue-signaling! Doesn't affect the rest of us in the least.

DP. You may be a research scientist but you are indeed shallow when it comes to women's appearances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no competition. Model being okay with natural body changes.

+1
This is a teaching moment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I really relate! It sounds kind of retrograde, but I don't think it is.

Like you, I was raised by a mom who didn't care at all about her looks. Or more accurately, she cared deeply about them because she was very ashamed of them, but didn't do anything change them. She has been very overweight since I was a kid, she puts no effort into dressing in a flattering way (forget being on trend or whatever -- just wearing flattering clothes that fit properly and look nice with her skin and hair). She would cut her own hair or get $5 haircuts at some cheap salons. She'd either wear no makeup or slather on foundation to even out her skin tone but then nothing else, so she'd look pale and bland.

I know all that sounds super harsh, but I don't mean it that way. I'm not mad at my mom for doing thing, it just makes me sad. And as an adolescent and teen, it was tough for me because as I went through puberty and started thinking about how I wanted to look, and also how my looks influenced how others perceived me, I felt very alone. My older sister was very savvy about all of that but had no interest in helping me along, in fact sometimes she was hostile to me and would nitpick my clothes or hair without giving me any support or guidance. My mom could also be very critical of me, and had this idea that making an effort with clothes or makeup was embarrassing, but also that my natural looks weren't good enough.

I think all of it stemmed from a place of self-loathing. She didn't think she deserved to put effort into her appearance because she was raised to think that "superficial" interests were shallow and embarrassing. But she also felt bad about her looks. And then she'd take this out on me because if I wore makeup or attempted to dress in a trendy way, she'd criticize me for being shallow, but she'd also tell me I wasn't attractive.

Anyway, I now have a daughter and I don't compete with her at all but I think I have a duty to demonstrate to her what it means to feel good about your appearance. I don't dress young for my age or wear a ton of makeup (but wouldn't judge a woman for doing either of those things) but I put effort into my appearance and choose clothes, hairstyles, makeup that make me feel good and like myself. My DD and I have bonded over clothes and beauty even though we have different taste. Sometimes I let her recommend things to me and I try them out, though I might say "no, not for me" if it doesn't suit me. But I encourage her to experiment and find stuff that feels good to her. I think we both have a healthy relationship with fashion/beauty. It doesn't dominate our lives but we have fun with it sometimes and we generally like how we look.

OP here. PP, thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. My mother was similar to yours. A sad example of what happens when a woman thinks that looks should not matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These posters are mean.

OP, your DD is normal. My DD has a few "mom" categories:
1. Normal mom - probably what you are now.
2. Botox mom - mom who has way too much plastic surgery and big lips, dresses very nice and expensively
3. Pretty mom - thin, fit, naturally attractive
4. Doesn't care mom - the ones that let themselves go.

In her eyes I'm 3, I think. There isn't a whole lot of thought that goes into her evaluations, do don't put too much stock in it.

This is so messed up, I don’t even know where to begin. I would advise never telling anyone about this.

+1. I am embarrassed for you and your daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll be blunt, OP: your post gives vibes of deep-seated insecurity with appearances and body issues.

Your job as a mom with regard to your daughter's body is to 1.) encourage your daughter to have good hygiene/nutrition/exercise habits and avoid drugs and alcohol, and 2.) have a good mental health approach and relationship to body stuff.
For the record, if dad is in the picture, this is his job, too.

If you want to up your game for YOU that's fine/great!

But comparing yourself to other moms, especially relative to size and age, is doing your daughter zero favors.

Also, be was pretty as you can be: your daughter will likely still be somewhat embarrassed by you for a variety of silly teen reasons.

Ha ha. Very true. I am one of the younger, "prettier" mothers in my daughter's circle, and she still pokes fun at me. Very rarely, I will come down in the morning, and she will look me up and down approvingly and say "you look nice today". HIGH PRAISE from a 13 year old girl!!! Nothing makes her happier than when I have an event and *I ask her opinion on what I should wear*. It sets her up so much! She has an eye for color, and usually her suggestions are appropriate for a 40-something mother.

Maybe you could ask your daughter to look through some of your outfits, and that will teach her to dress you for the figure you have, not the figure she wishes you had? And maybe you could go shopping together.

And another shallow twit.

This is why women just can't break the cycle. Because of other women.

Shallow Twit you replied to. You're very amusing, PP. I'm a research scientist and it may be the first time in my life I've been called shallow. Maybe the shallow person isn't the one you think, but I don't expect you to engage in such a deep self-reflection. You rock on with your surface-level virtue-signaling! Doesn't affect the rest of us in the least.

The tone of your post suggests it has affected you quite a bit. What you do for a living has nothing to do with it. You are teaching your daughter to value appearances in a way that is shallow. You are leaning in to her emphasis on what you look like instead of steering her toward better ways of thinking.

Own it, researcher. The evidence is right there in front of you.

[Anonymous]

[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These posters are mean.

OP, your DD is normal. My DD has a few "mom" categories:
1. Normal mom - probably what you are now.
2. Botox mom - mom who has way too much plastic surgery and big lips, dresses very nice and expensively
3. Pretty mom - thin, fit, naturally attractive
4. Doesn't care mom - the ones that let themselves go.

In her eyes I'm 3, I think. There isn't a whole lot of thought that goes into her evaluations, do don't put too much stock in it.

This is so messed up, I don’t even know where to begin. I would advise never telling anyone about this.

OP here. PP, girls do think in these categories, and to pretend otherwise is not helpful.

And it is your job as the parent to put the focus on the things that will carry your daughter through life. Intelligence, hard work, humor, loyalty, kindness. Because looks will fade, and when they do, you don’t want to be left with the nastiness you seem to think is both normal and appropriate.

My message to my daughter has always been that the world will judge you on appearance. This is unfair and there is a whole host of reasons that are terrible for why this is true. But in our house and in our relationship, your looks do not matter. You can choose or not to play the appearance game, but it will never, ever be something you need to do so that I do not judge you.

[Anonymous]

You were a size 2, OP? You let yourself go badly. I'd be embarrassed to be around you. Ozempic stat!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I really relate! It sounds kind of retrograde, but I don't think it is.

Like you, I was raised by a mom who didn't care at all about her looks. Or more accurately, she cared deeply about them because she was very ashamed of them, but didn't do anything change them. She has been very overweight since I was a kid, she puts no effort into dressing in a flattering way (forget being on trend or whatever -- just wearing flattering clothes that fit properly and look nice with her skin and hair). She would cut her own hair or get $5 haircuts at some cheap salons. She'd either wear no makeup or slather on foundation to even out her skin tone but then nothing else, so she'd look pale and bland.

I know all that sounds super harsh, but I don't mean it that way. I'm not mad at my mom for doing thing, it just makes me sad. And as an adolescent and teen, it was tough for me because as I went through puberty and started thinking about how I wanted to look, and also how my looks influenced how others perceived me, I felt very alone. My older sister was very savvy about all of that but had no interest in helping me along, in fact sometimes she was hostile to me and would nitpick my clothes or hair without giving me any support or guidance. My mom could also be very critical of me, and had this idea that making an effort with clothes or makeup was embarrassing, but also that my natural looks weren't good enough.

I think all of it stemmed from a place of self-loathing. She didn't think she deserved to put effort into her appearance because she was raised to think that "superficial" interests were shallow and embarrassing. But she also felt bad about her looks. And then she'd take this out on me because if I wore makeup or attempted to dress in a trendy way, she'd criticize me for being shallow, but she'd also tell me I wasn't attractive.

Anyway, I now have a daughter and I don't compete with her at all but I think I have a duty to demonstrate to her what it means to feel good about your appearance. I don't dress young for my age or wear a ton of makeup (but wouldn't judge a woman for doing either of those things) but I put effort into my appearance and choose clothes, hairstyles, makeup that make me feel good and like myself. My DD and I have bonded over clothes and beauty even though we have different taste. Sometimes I let her recommend things to me and I try them out, though I might say "no, not for me" if it doesn't suit me. But I encourage her to experiment and find stuff that feels good to her. I think we both have a healthy relationship with fashion/beauty. It doesn't dominate our lives but we have fun with it sometimes and we generally like how we look.

OP here. PP, thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. My mother was similar to yours. A sad example of what happens when a woman thinks that looks should not matter.

Both of you really need to work through this with a therapist and not on an anonymous message board. Please do so before you pass on these unhealthy obsessions with appearance to your daughters. Do it for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The responses are divided between:

1. Wise people who know that appearances count and who can find ways to manage societal expectations as well as teen angst about same, so their daughters are aware what portion of intelligence, kindness and looks may contribute to their future success.

2. Insecure, foolish, women triggered by the fact others may or may not be prettier, and who strenuously insist that girls should be raised to be blind to appearances and only look at the beauty within. WELL, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

Huh? The posters who aren't falling over themselves to brag about how hot they are (#1) are not insecure foolish women. They are women who take issue with the fact that OP wants to compete with her teen daughter in some sort of fictional beauty contest. They are taking issue with the fact that OP clearly has deep seated issues with her own mothers appearance, and has now passed that along to her young child.

DP, but anyone criticizing OP for wanting to compete with her DD is misreading. As OP has explained, it's not about feeling threatened by her DD or wanting to be seen as better looking than her (at all, OP hasn't said anything even hinting about this).

As OP put it, and some of us have properly understood, it's about wanting her DD to feel proud of her mom and not embarrassed by her looks. It's about feeling pressure to meet her DD's expectations about how women look. Now, that's complicated and I can see an argument against it (her DD is subscribing to culture expectations of women, should OP be trying to meet those expectations?) but I also totally understand it as a mom to a daughter. I don't feel in competition with my DD at all and I don't need her to love or approve of my appearance all the time, but I also don't want her to be embarrassed by me (as I was at times by my own mom who had a mental health disorder and put no effort into her appearance).

With my mom, I worried that people would see her and judge me by what they thought of her. And I knew enough about the world to know my mom was judged harshly. Now it would be great if I was so self-possessed and empathetic as a teenager that I could have said "screw them, it's none of their business and if they judge us, their loss." But I was also raised by a woman with a mental health disorder and had my own insecurities and issues due to years of neglect and other issues, and instead I deeply feared that my mom would bar me from entry into functional communities because they'd see her and decide I wasn't the right kind of people. I knew I would need community and support in life because I didn't have it in my family, and I saw my mom as an obstacle to getting it.

OP here. PP, thanks for your post. I agree with you, with the clarification that my daughter does not have expectations about how women should look. She never told me that I or any other woman should do this or that. As you wrote, I merely want her to not be embarrassed by me, as many girls feel embarrassed by their frumpy mothers.

I am sorry that you had that experience with your mother. It seems to me that you have overcome it well. Your daughter is lucky to have you as her mom.

[Anonymous]

Can't wait to see these "pretty" moms start to use Botox and Ozempic in their 40s to try to avoid being "normal". Ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Thinking back, I cannot even remember who the “pretty” moms were growing up. I remember the moms who drove us to the mall, and the one mom who was super good at math and helped us with algebra, and the ones who invited me to stay for dinner a million times. Never did I think anything about their appearances. You are focusing on the wrong stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I recently realized that my 13 year-old daughter started comparing herself to me in terms of beauty, attractiveness, femininity.

So I can no longer be simply the cuddly "mama bear", but I feel like I need to become a more attractive woman myself in order for her to feel proud of me.

By the way, I think that her new approach is completely normal, so I don't mean this as a criticism.

I must confess that I am no longer as attractive/thin/put-together as before her birth, and I need to put in more effort. (I went from a size 2 to currently a size 10/12).

I remember back as a teen I considered my mom to be fat, ugly, unattractive, and I think she was all that. But I don't want to be.

Somehow most of the moms at my daughter's school seem to be older than me, so this issue hasn't occurred to me. But recently at an event I saw a girl my daughter's age with an attractive mother, and I wished I were that mom.

Did you have similar insights when your daughters reached their teenage years?

Thanks in advance.

You say "insights," I say "disordered thinking," OP.

Seriously, you are saying that you need to be attractive for your daughter to be proud of you. Does she need to be attractive for you to be proud of her? DO you want her to feel that way about the men (or women) she is romantically involved with?