What to do when kids overhear one spouse pushing the other one?

[Anonymous]

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.


Abuser narcissist ID’d above. Show your daughters so they can ID gaslighting, deflection, and manipulation. They prey on you giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, but throwing you off balance over and over (physically and emotionally). They absolutely do it to their children as well.

NP and a woman, but I think that the PP suggesting a different way of viewing things (quoted above) is reasonable. I am NOT suggesting what OP's DH did or said is ok, because it's not (and I actually find his texts today perhaps more troubling). However, it is possible that her DH was acting in the heat of the moment and does not view pulling her shoulder as described by OP as pushing her, and did not intend for her to fall. OP also said she had a vacuum in her hands, which may have put her off-balance and contributed to falling. Her DH absolutely should not have put his hands on her like that and certainly should not have blocked her from the leaving room. At the same time, unless OP was genuinely worried about her safety, repeatedly yelling so that the kids could hear probably exacerbated the situation. I can't tell from OP's post whether she had safety concerns, or whether tempers were running high at that point and she yelled because she was frustrated and emotional (understandably). I'm not suggesting that OP is to blame for the kids overhearing, just wondering whether both parties had opportunities to dial this back and didn't do that. In any event, OP and her DH need to address the issues directly with their kids - "we are sorry about the fight, we let things get out control and will do our best not to let that happen again." I don't think any of us know enough to advise whether this should be the end of their marriage - the lawyer screaming divorce seems to be projecting a lot, and may be right, but I don't think we have enough information to say. At a minimum, DH needs individual counseling to control his emotions and communicate better, and couples counseling might help OP and her DH learn new and healthier communication strategies that would be useful whether they stay married or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People argue, so what? Your kids are old enough to know that their parents aren't perfect. They aren't going to be traumatized. Carry on.

Kids aren’t going to be traumatized by dad getting physical with mom? You’re full of it.

Remember the factual narrative was the Mom's version. Who knows exactly what happened in that room. The Mom admitted they have a bad marriage asked for people not to be judgmental, so please follow her wishes and avoid the DCUM "blame the man" narrative.

Okay this is wild to me. Why do people read a post, decide the OP is flat-out lying, and the respond based on the assumption that OP is lying? Sure, OP could be lying. OP could be making the whole thing up. That happens all the time on the internet. But what’s the point of giving advice or responding anything but “I think you’re lying because women lie” if you don’t believe OP?

NP. There could be five million things happening here, none of which a third person observer is qualified to comment on at a distance. The important thing is that OP get herself and her husband into counseling, and her family into counseling, so they can figure out what the next steps should be. No one wants to live like this but they seem to be at an impasse.

If OP’s statements are true, the kids can indeed be traumatized by what happened. Not feeling safe (because the people who are supposed to keep you safe are physically fighting) is classic. PP was implying that we don’t know what happened in the room so we can’t say they were traumatized. Well sure but what’s the point of replying if you’re just going to change OP’s narrative?

OP specifically said, I'm not asking for judgment about my marriage. The judgments either way about him or her are irrelevant. No one was there.

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.

Abuser narcissist ID’d above. Show your daughters so they can ID gaslighting, deflection, and manipulation. They prey on you giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, but throwing you off balance over and over (physically and emotionally). They absolutely do it to their children as well.

PP here. I’ve worked extensively in domestic violence. You don’t have enough information here to decide what anything is. I’m sorry, I think instead of turning to the peanut gallery of people who may be projecting their own experiences and trauma on this, OP has the option of turning to a trained professional to sort out the next steps. Provided she feels safe enough to stay, that is. I’m assuming she is as she hasn’t listed previous abuse and doesn’t say she is concerned for her safety.

Obviously the husband needs to work on some stuff. But everyone saying divorce are just jumping the gun.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I’ve worked extensively in domestic violence. You don’t have enough information here to decide what anything is. I’m sorry, I think instead of turning to the peanut gallery of people who may be projecting their own experiences and trauma on this, OP has the option of turning to a trained professional to sort out the next steps. Provided she feels safe enough to stay, that is. I’m assuming she is as she hasn’t listed previous abuse and doesn’t say she is concerned for her safety.

Obviously the husband needs to work on some stuff. But everyone saying divorce are just jumping the gun.

I’m not looking for judgement about my marriage, just damage control. Last night my DH and I got into a heated argument, I tried to leave the room, he grabbed my shoulder and pulled me back in, which resulted in me falling backwards on the floor and against the wall while holding a cordless vaccuum. It was very loud and I yelled, “Don’t push me! What’s wrong with you?” He then blocked the door while I yelled, about 3-4 times, “Let me out. Stop it.” He then said, very loudly, “I didn’t push you. Stop making up lies.” Turns out our kids were in the hallway outside our door and heard. They are 12 and 14. We each apologized for fighting, but didn’t specifically mention the physical part since, at that point, I didn’t know they heard that part and was hoping they didn’t. The reason I know they heard that part is I caught them texting each other after they were supposed to be in bed, took their phones downstairs, and read the texts, which were along the lines of “did he push her?” “I don’t know” This is the first time they have heard something like that. It’s not the first time it’s happened, but it hasn’t happened in years. Obviously, there is a huge marital issue we need to address. But in the interim, what should we do to address what the kids heard? I understand this is beyond the pale, and I’m devastated, so any non-judgmental advice would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, the therapist can’t talk until Monday.

NP here. Posters accurately identifying her H's behavior as abusive aren't "projecting". Your post reeks of an agenda to discredit the OP, see your dismissal of her history above. Just stop, PP.

[Anonymous]

OP, I’m sorry you had to deal with this and all the backlash from the folks on this board. Start documenting what happened and ask yourself what you’d tell a friend. Think about how you’d react if you saw this in their marriage. And yes, it can impact your kids a great deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did you respond to the text?

NEVER respond in a way that indicates he did not assault you.

Reiterate that you did not intend for the children to hear you. That you yelled out of fear and pain. Insist that in the future he lets you walk away, instead of physically forcing you back into the room and blocking your exit.

OP here- I said “you know what you did. You pushed me and blocked me from leaving the room. Stop trying to cover this up.” To which he responded, “you are a liar. You’ve tried this before. Complete liar. You are hurting the kids.”

I would respond with: "Since we both agree this is hurting the kids, will you go to family therapy with me and the boys to discuss what we can do to make the dynamics in our house better? In the meantime, I suggest we take a break from this argument because I don't think we can talk constructively now."

If he agrees, you set a date by which you both come up with a list and start calling people. It can take time to find someone.

If he won't go to family or marital therapy then you need to discuss your next steps with a lawyer, assuming you don't want to stay in this relationship as it presently is.

Don’t go to therapy with him. He will just turn that against OP too.

[Anonymous]

If you want to blow up your marriage, it's actionable physical assault. Get a lawyer and get therapy.

If you don't, couple lose their temper all the time. Get therapy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

PP here. I’ve worked extensively in domestic violence. You don’t have enough information here to decide what anything is. I’m sorry, I think instead of turning to the peanut gallery of people who may be projecting their own experiences and trauma on this, OP has the option of turning to a trained professional to sort out the next steps. Provided she feels safe enough to stay, that is. I’m assuming she is as she hasn’t listed previous abuse and doesn’t say she is concerned for her safety.

Obviously the husband needs to work on some stuff. But everyone saying divorce are just jumping the gun.

I’m not looking for judgement about my marriage, just damage control. Last night my DH and I got into a heated argument, I tried to leave the room, he grabbed my shoulder and pulled me back in, which resulted in me falling backwards on the floor and against the wall while holding a cordless vaccuum. It was very loud and I yelled, “Don’t push me! What’s wrong with you?” He then blocked the door while I yelled, about 3-4 times, “Let me out. Stop it.” He then said, very loudly, “I didn’t push you. Stop making up lies.” Turns out our kids were in the hallway outside our door and heard. They are 12 and 14. We each apologized for fighting, but didn’t specifically mention the physical part since, at that point, I didn’t know they heard that part and was hoping they didn’t. The reason I know they heard that part is I caught them texting each other after they were supposed to be in bed, took their phones downstairs, and read the texts, which were along the lines of “did he push her?” “I don’t know” This is the first time they have heard something like that. It’s not the first time it’s happened, but it hasn’t happened in years. Obviously, there is a huge marital issue we need to address. But in the interim, what should we do to address what the kids heard? I understand this is beyond the pale, and I’m devastated, so any non-judgmental advice would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, the therapist can’t talk until Monday.

NP here. Posters accurately identifying her H's behavior as abusive aren't "projecting". Your post reeks of an agenda to discredit the OP, see your dismissal of her history above. Just stop, PP.

Not the first time it’s happened — ok. Hasn’t happened in years — how many? What kind of incident are we talking about? Is there a history of violence or getting physical where OP is the aggressor? What were the outcomes? There’s just a lot of information we don’t have to come to any in depth understanding of the situation in their relationship.

Look up persecutor-victim-rescuer drama triangle. People who are adopting a rescuer stance in this situation are not helping. They are perpetuating the drama. The first step of engagement here is that you let OP lead by answering to what she says she needs. She said she needs help with damage control. And that’s what is being suggested here. The first step is to get everyone feeling safe, particularly if there is no immediate plan to leave the house. If she needs help with leaving she needs to ask for that. It’s not clear at all to me that this is the stage she is at. Frankly your judgements about the situation perpetuate a dynamic that is unhelpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.


Abuser narcissist ID’d above. Show your daughters so they can ID gaslighting, deflection, and manipulation. They prey on you giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, but throwing you off balance over and over (physically and emotionally). They absolutely do it to their children as well.

NP and a woman, but I think that the PP suggesting a different way of viewing things (quoted above) is reasonable. I am NOT suggesting what OP's DH did or said is ok, because it's not (and I actually find his texts today perhaps more troubling). However, it is possible that her DH was acting in the heat of the moment and does not view pulling her shoulder as described by OP as pushing her, and did not intend for her to fall. OP also said she had a vacuum in her hands, which may have put her off-balance and contributed to falling. Her DH absolutely should not have put his hands on her like that and certainly should not have blocked her from the leaving room. At the same time, unless OP was genuinely worried about her safety, repeatedly yelling so that the kids could hear probably exacerbated the situation. I can't tell from OP's post whether she had safety concerns, or whether tempers were running high at that point and she yelled because she was frustrated and emotional (understandably). I'm not suggesting that OP is to blame for the kids overhearing, just wondering whether both parties had opportunities to dial this back and didn't do that. In any event, OP and her DH need to address the issues directly with their kids - "we are sorry about the fight, we let things get out control and will do our best not to let that happen again." I don't think any of us know enough to advise whether this should be the end of their marriage - the lawyer screaming divorce seems to be projecting a lot, and may be right, but I don't think we have enough information to say. At a minimum, DH needs individual counseling to control his emotions and communicate better, and couples counseling might help OP and her DH learn new and healthier communication strategies that would be useful whether they stay married or not.

Op said his verbal and emotional abuse is a chronic pattern. So are the follow up lies and deflections and gaslighting

The shoving/pushing/pulling/blocking is next level physical abuse. And to turn around and not apologize and make things right, and instead double down and lie and accuse the victim is serious.

But yes, if you were his lawyer you’d tell the judge how this is nothing, this never happened before, op lost her balance herself, and maybe you’d even flat out deny anything happened for your client.

Patterns matter. Wake up and see them.

[Anonymous]

Why would anybody come to a board like DCUM to get advice on a serious situation like this, especially involving kids? The replies consist of people stirring the pot, projecting their own issues, provoking each other, making jokes, and so forth. Even the well-intentioned replies are pretty useless because they do not know the nuance and details. Any lawyer giving legal advice on something so serious without interviewing you in detail should have his/her license taken away. I mean seriously, are you planning to assimilate all the replies and take that as your strategy? If so, in addition to a mean husband, you have ridiculously bad judgment. I cannot even imagine getting advice on how to handle a life crisis on a board like this. Please say that you are a troll and you made this up, like a scene in a Lifetime movie. But if this is a real situation, how about talking to a real person like a friend, priest, counselor, family member???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So -- I'm just now realizing that my husband of 20+ years is also a manipulative narcissist...it is not apparent unless I don't go along with what he wants, and I think when I was younger I did this because it was easier and only now are we really battling it out over some big issues. From what I can now, my husband really believes his own versions of events, and he has the ability to completely forget things he did and said that others on this board would call 'unforgivable' -- no physical abuse, but a lot of verbal abuse if I don't agree with his opinions or actions. He doesn't think he is lying, or gaslighting, or covering up the truth, even though he is doing all of this routinely. With someone like this, it is complicated because there is no point in arguing or relationship counseling.

For many reasons, I am not looking to divorce right now, although this is not off the table for the future. For those of you with happy marriages, this decision and the following suggestion may not make sense, but OP will get it as her situation sounds similar. With my therapist's advice, I identified my current goal as being to minimize damage to the kids, so I have stopped saying anything back to him when I disagree with whatever he just said -- literally nothing -- and I just go on and do what I feel is right regardless of what he says or thinks. As a result, we have not had a blow-up in 3 weeks, although our conversations are pretty much confined to coordination about the kids activities and facts. My therapist helped me realize that I don't need to tell him what I think in order to feel like I am strong, or self actualizing, or whatever, and that as I can control my own behavior it is up to me to take an action to try to change the dynamic. Try this. It means that you are controlling the situation, not him, and just that thought makes the whole mess easier for me to handle mentally. Good luck, OP, and hugs -- this is difficult.

OP here- Yes. My concern is the gaslighting and false narratives, not the physical stuff. I used to feel so confused after arguments, like I was going crazy. Gaslighting makes you feel that way. I saw a therapist for a gut check. Of course, someone hearing only one side of the story can’t give unbiased assessment, but she helped me identify tools he was using to manipulate me. I also walked down the road of divorce with her - mentally planning it out and thinking through the impact it would have in all areas. Like you, I’m not ready to do that yet. I never thought I would find myself here and, frankly, it took me years to realize this is where I am. I still struggle with accepting it. It’s so easy for people who have never lived with a narcissist to give simple solutions, and I don’t blame them, because I would be giving the same advice.

[Anonymous]

Your kids are going to remember this, forever. I’m sorry, but this is going to be a defining moment of their childhood. They are going to cry about this with their future partners or in a therapist’s office. I know because you are describing my parents’ marriage and I was the child in this exact scenario. My parents put us through an entire childhood of fighting and then finally divorced when we were out of the house…….. I don’t see how you and your spouse can move beyond this physically aggressive behavior, especially since he doesn’t sound sorry at all.

[Anonymous]

Grabbing your shoulder and pulling you back doesn't sound like pushing. You yelling "Don't push me!" and you falling is what caused the dramatic scene. It sounds like you both need therapy in how to communicate so that things don't escalate.

Has he been abusive in the past? This definitely doesn't sound like abuse to me. Doesn't sound like anything the kids would be traumatized over either, if you tell them the same truth that you just posted here instead of he "pushed me."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.


Abuser narcissist ID’d above. Show your daughters so they can ID gaslighting, deflection, and manipulation. They prey on you giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, but throwing you off balance over and over (physically and emotionally). They absolutely do it to their children as well.

NP and a woman, but I think that the PP suggesting a different way of viewing things (quoted above) is reasonable. I am NOT suggesting what OP's DH did or said is ok, because it's not (and I actually find his texts today perhaps more troubling). However, it is possible that her DH was acting in the heat of the moment and does not view pulling her shoulder as described by OP as pushing her, and did not intend for her to fall. OP also said she had a vacuum in her hands, which may have put her off-balance and contributed to falling. Her DH absolutely should not have put his hands on her like that and certainly should not have blocked her from the leaving room. At the same time, unless OP was genuinely worried about her safety, repeatedly yelling so that the kids could hear probably exacerbated the situation. I can't tell from OP's post whether she had safety concerns, or whether tempers were running high at that point and she yelled because she was frustrated and emotional (understandably). I'm not suggesting that OP is to blame for the kids overhearing, just wondering whether both parties had opportunities to dial this back and didn't do that. In any event, OP and her DH need to address the issues directly with their kids - "we are sorry about the fight, we let things get out control and will do our best not to let that happen again." I don't think any of us know enough to advise whether this should be the end of their marriage - the lawyer screaming divorce seems to be projecting a lot, and may be right, but I don't think we have enough information to say. At a minimum, DH needs individual counseling to control his emotions and communicate better, and couples counseling might help OP and her DH learn new and healthier communication strategies that would be useful whether they stay married or not.

+1

[Anonymous]

Op how do you want your kid to handle being in that same situation? That is what will likely happen. I would ask for a separation with counseling and this will also show your kids how to establish boundaries and handle aggressive behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So -- I'm just now realizing that my husband of 20+ years is also a manipulative narcissist...it is not apparent unless I don't go along with what he wants, and I think when I was younger I did this because it was easier and only now are we really battling it out over some big issues. From what I can now, my husband really believes his own versions of events, and he has the ability to completely forget things he did and said that others on this board would call 'unforgivable' -- no physical abuse, but a lot of verbal abuse if I don't agree with his opinions or actions. He doesn't think he is lying, or gaslighting, or covering up the truth, even though he is doing all of this routinely. With someone like this, it is complicated because there is no point in arguing or relationship counseling.

For many reasons, I am not looking to divorce right now, although this is not off the table for the future. For those of you with happy marriages, this decision and the following suggestion may not make sense, but OP will get it as her situation sounds similar. With my therapist's advice, I identified my current goal as being to minimize damage to the kids, so I have stopped saying anything back to him when I disagree with whatever he just said -- literally nothing -- and I just go on and do what I feel is right regardless of what he says or thinks. As a result, we have not had a blow-up in 3 weeks, although our conversations are pretty much confined to coordination about the kids activities and facts. My therapist helped me realize that I don't need to tell him what I think in order to feel like I am strong, or self actualizing, or whatever, and that as I can control my own behavior it is up to me to take an action to try to change the dynamic. Try this. It means that you are controlling the situation, not him, and just that thought makes the whole mess easier for me to handle mentally. Good luck, OP, and hugs -- this is difficult.

OP here- Yes. My concern is the gaslighting and false narratives, not the physical stuff. I used to feel so confused after arguments, like I was going crazy. Gaslighting makes you feel that way. I saw a therapist for a gut check. Of course, someone hearing only one side of the story can’t give unbiased assessment, but she helped me identify tools he was using to manipulate me. I also walked down the road of divorce with her - mentally planning it out and thinking through the impact it would have in all areas. Like you, I’m not ready to do that yet. I never thought I would find myself here and, frankly, it took me years to realize this is where I am. I still struggle with accepting it. It’s so easy for people who have never lived with a narcissist to give simple solutions, and I don’t blame them, because I would be giving the same advice.

OP, I am sorry you are going through this. I'm going to leave the forensic re-creation of the scene to other posters, but the one fact that stands out to me is that you wanted to exit the space and exit the argument and were prevented from doing so.

I don't know how you go to your kids and offer apology or reassurance when your spouse not only refuses to acknowledge their part in the argument, but calls you a liar and then blames you for the kids' reaction. I think that's something that can be explored in family therapy or with your therapist on how to handle.

I think the PP that has developed a technique for not engaging probably has the best advice. I also think you should make some concrete divorce preparations in case you do need to leave.