What to do when kids overhear one spouse pushing the other one?

[Anonymous]

No couples counseling with abusers and liars.

Individual only. For you, for him. Loop in his once a month.

[Anonymous]

I left and we divorced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People argue, so what? Your kids are old enough to know that their parents aren't perfect. They aren't going to be traumatized. Carry on.

Kids aren’t going to be traumatized by dad getting physical with mom? You’re full of it.

Remember the factual narrative was the Mom's version. Who knows exactly what happened in that room. The Mom admitted they have a bad marriage asked for people not to be judgmental, so please follow her wishes and avoid the DCUM "blame the man" narrative.

Okay this is wild to me. Why do people read a post, decide the OP is flat-out lying, and the respond based on the assumption that OP is lying? Sure, OP could be lying. OP could be making the whole thing up. That happens all the time on the internet. But what’s the point of giving advice or responding anything but “I think you’re lying because women lie” if you don’t believe OP?

NP. There could be five million things happening here, none of which a third person observer is qualified to comment on at a distance. The important thing is that OP get herself and her husband into counseling, and her family into counseling, so they can figure out what the next steps should be. No one wants to live like this but they seem to be at an impasse.

If OP’s statements are true, the kids can indeed be traumatized by what happened. Not feeling safe (because the people who are supposed to keep you safe are physically fighting) is classic. PP was implying that we don’t know what happened in the room so we can’t say they were traumatized. Well sure but what’s the point of replying if you’re just going to change OP’s narrative?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People argue, so what? Your kids are old enough to know that their parents aren't perfect. They aren't going to be traumatized. Carry on.

Kids aren’t going to be traumatized by dad getting physical with mom? You’re full of it.

Remember the factual narrative was the Mom's version. Who knows exactly what happened in that room. The Mom admitted they have a bad marriage asked for people not to be judgmental, so please follow her wishes and avoid the DCUM "blame the man" narrative.

Okay this is wild to me. Why do people read a post, decide the OP is flat-out lying, and the respond based on the assumption that OP is lying? Sure, OP could be lying. OP could be making the whole thing up. That happens all the time on the internet. But what’s the point of giving advice or responding anything but “I think you’re lying because women lie” if you don’t believe OP?

NP. There could be five million things happening here, none of which a third person observer is qualified to comment on at a distance. The important thing is that OP get herself and her husband into counseling, and her family into counseling, so they can figure out what the next steps should be. No one wants to live like this but they seem to be at an impasse.

If OP’s statements are true, the kids can indeed be traumatized by what happened. Not feeling safe (because the people who are supposed to keep you safe are physically fighting) is classic. PP was implying that we don’t know what happened in the room so we can’t say they were traumatized. Well sure but what’s the point of replying if you’re just going to change OP’s narrative?

OP specifically said, I'm not asking for judgment about my marriage. The judgments either way about him or her are irrelevant. No one was there.

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.

[Anonymous]

As a lawyer who works with and represents victims, you need to divorce. The lying and cover-up is a sign of an abuser who will not change, and they, often, kill their victims. Does he also control you financially? How many friends do you have that are yours alone? Are you isolated from your family? He also has probably controlled and manipulated your children to see you as the bad guy because that is what these men do. If he falls in to the category that I believe he may, you need to talk to a social worker specializing in domestic abuse, and that person needs to help you formulate your plan to leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People argue, so what? Your kids are old enough to know that their parents aren't perfect. They aren't going to be traumatized. Carry on.

Kids aren’t going to be traumatized by dad getting physical with mom? You’re full of it.

Remember the factual narrative was the Mom's version. Who knows exactly what happened in that room. The Mom admitted they have a bad marriage asked for people not to be judgmental, so please follow her wishes and avoid the DCUM "blame the man" narrative.

Okay this is wild to me. Why do people read a post, decide the OP is flat-out lying, and the respond based on the assumption that OP is lying? Sure, OP could be lying. OP could be making the whole thing up. That happens all the time on the internet. But what’s the point of giving advice or responding anything but “I think you’re lying because women lie” if you don’t believe OP?

NP. There could be five million things happening here, none of which a third person observer is qualified to comment on at a distance. The important thing is that OP get herself and her husband into counseling, and her family into counseling, so they can figure out what the next steps should be. No one wants to live like this but they seem to be at an impasse.

If OP’s statements are true, the kids can indeed be traumatized by what happened. Not feeling safe (because the people who are supposed to keep you safe are physically fighting) is classic. PP was implying that we don’t know what happened in the room so we can’t say they were traumatized. Well sure but what’s the point of replying if you’re just going to change OP’s narrative?

OP specifically said, I'm not asking for judgment about my marriage. The judgments either way about him or her are irrelevant. No one was there.

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.

Oh goodness. That was a lot of words to second-guess what OP is saying and to speculate on what her husband might be thinking. (Frankly sounds very similar to what an enabler would say.) So you’re doing exactly what I said you’re doing: giving advice based not on the post but speculation about what isn’t in the post. Why question her account? What’s the point? Sure, if she was lying then the advice here wouldn’t apply but if you don’t believe her what is even the point of giving advice?

But the original comment was about the kids’ potential trauma. Unless you’re going to again veer away from the facts OP stated, the kids are worried and don’t feel safe. They heard something and are texting about it. That lack of security can cause trauma. The person who said we weren’t there we don’t know if there was trauma don’t assume it’s the man’s fault is just accusing OP of lying. Which is an especially shitty thing to do to somebody whose account demonstrates classic gaslighting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People argue, so what? Your kids are old enough to know that their parents aren't perfect. They aren't going to be traumatized. Carry on.

Kids aren’t going to be traumatized by dad getting physical with mom? You’re full of it.

Remember the factual narrative was the Mom's version. Who knows exactly what happened in that room. The Mom admitted they have a bad marriage asked for people not to be judgmental, so please follow her wishes and avoid the DCUM "blame the man" narrative.

Okay this is wild to me. Why do people read a post, decide the OP is flat-out lying, and the respond based on the assumption that OP is lying? Sure, OP could be lying. OP could be making the whole thing up. That happens all the time on the internet. But what’s the point of giving advice or responding anything but “I think you’re lying because women lie” if you don’t believe OP?

NP. There could be five million things happening here, none of which a third person observer is qualified to comment on at a distance. The important thing is that OP get herself and her husband into counseling, and her family into counseling, so they can figure out what the next steps should be. No one wants to live like this but they seem to be at an impasse.

If OP’s statements are true, the kids can indeed be traumatized by what happened. Not feeling safe (because the people who are supposed to keep you safe are physically fighting) is classic. PP was implying that we don’t know what happened in the room so we can’t say they were traumatized. Well sure but what’s the point of replying if you’re just going to change OP’s narrative?

OP specifically said, I'm not asking for judgment about my marriage. The judgments either way about him or her are irrelevant. No one was there.

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.

Oh goodness. That was a lot of words to second-guess what OP is saying and to speculate on what her husband might be thinking. (Frankly sounds very similar to what an enabler would say.) So you’re doing exactly what I said you’re doing: giving advice based not on the post but speculation about what isn’t in the post. Why question her account? What’s the point? Sure, if she was lying then the advice here wouldn’t apply but if you don’t believe her what is even the point of giving advice?

But the original comment was about the kids’ potential trauma. Unless you’re going to again veer away from the facts OP stated, the kids are worried and don’t feel safe. They heard something and are texting about it. That lack of security can cause trauma. The person who said we weren’t there we don’t know if there was trauma don’t assume it’s the man’s fault is just accusing OP of lying. Which is an especially shitty thing to do to somebody whose account demonstrates classic gaslighting.

It seems you agree the next step is family therapy. So the question is how to get there. Everything else is just words.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I left and we divorced.

This is your action plan. Simple, After you make the decision, then tale the statement one step further.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a lawyer who works with and represents victims, you need to divorce. The lying and cover-up is a sign of an abuser who will not change, and they, often, kill their victims. Does he also control you financially? How many friends do you have that are yours alone? Are you isolated from your family? He also has probably controlled and manipulated your children to see you as the bad guy because that is what these men do. If he falls in to the category that I believe he may, you need to talk to a social worker specializing in domestic abuse, and that person needs to help you formulate your plan to leave.

Be strategic, take some time and plan, then execute.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People argue, so what? Your kids are old enough to know that their parents aren't perfect. They aren't going to be traumatized. Carry on.

Kids aren’t going to be traumatized by dad getting physical with mom? You’re full of it.

Remember the factual narrative was the Mom's version. Who knows exactly what happened in that room. The Mom admitted they have a bad marriage asked for people not to be judgmental, so please follow her wishes and avoid the DCUM "blame the man" narrative.

Okay this is wild to me. Why do people read a post, decide the OP is flat-out lying, and the respond based on the assumption that OP is lying? Sure, OP could be lying. OP could be making the whole thing up. That happens all the time on the internet. But what’s the point of giving advice or responding anything but “I think you’re lying because women lie” if you don’t believe OP?

NP. There could be five million things happening here, none of which a third person observer is qualified to comment on at a distance. The important thing is that OP get herself and her husband into counseling, and her family into counseling, so they can figure out what the next steps should be. No one wants to live like this but they seem to be at an impasse.

If OP’s statements are true, the kids can indeed be traumatized by what happened. Not feeling safe (because the people who are supposed to keep you safe are physically fighting) is classic. PP was implying that we don’t know what happened in the room so we can’t say they were traumatized. Well sure but what’s the point of replying if you’re just going to change OP’s narrative?

OP specifically said, I'm not asking for judgment about my marriage. The judgments either way about him or her are irrelevant. No one was there.

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.

Abuser narcissist ID’d above. Show your daughters so they can ID gaslighting, deflection, and manipulation. They prey on you giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, but throwing you off balance over and over (physically and emotionally). They absolutely do it to their children as well.

[Anonymous]

Call House of Ruth's Domestic Violence Support Center. They will help you for free, so that you can stop putting your kids in this situation. 202-667-7001 x 515

[Anonymous]

So -- I'm just now realizing that my husband of 20+ years is also a manipulative narcissist...it is not apparent unless I don't go along with what he wants, and I think when I was younger I did this because it was easier and only now are we really battling it out over some big issues. From what I can now, my husband really believes his own versions of events, and he has the ability to completely forget things he did and said that others on this board would call 'unforgivable' -- no physical abuse, but a lot of verbal abuse if I don't agree with his opinions or actions. He doesn't think he is lying, or gaslighting, or covering up the truth, even though he is doing all of this routinely. With someone like this, it is complicated because there is no point in arguing or relationship counseling.

For many reasons, I am not looking to divorce right now, although this is not off the table for the future. For those of you with happy marriages, this decision and the following suggestion may not make sense, but OP will get it as her situation sounds similar. With my therapist's advice, I identified my current goal as being to minimize damage to the kids, so I have stopped saying anything back to him when I disagree with whatever he just said -- literally nothing -- and I just go on and do what I feel is right regardless of what he says or thinks. As a result, we have not had a blow-up in 3 weeks, although our conversations are pretty much confined to coordination about the kids activities and facts. My therapist helped me realize that I don't need to tell him what I think in order to feel like I am strong, or self actualizing, or whatever, and that as I can control my own behavior it is up to me to take an action to try to change the dynamic. Try this. It means that you are controlling the situation, not him, and just that thought makes the whole mess easier for me to handle mentally. Good luck, OP, and hugs -- this is difficult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So -- I'm just now realizing that my husband of 20+ years is also a manipulative narcissist...it is not apparent unless I don't go along with what he wants, and I think when I was younger I did this because it was easier and only now are we really battling it out over some big issues. From what I can now, my husband really believes his own versions of events, and he has the ability to completely forget things he did and said that others on this board would call 'unforgivable' -- no physical abuse, but a lot of verbal abuse if I don't agree with his opinions or actions. He doesn't think he is lying, or gaslighting, or covering up the truth, even though he is doing all of this routinely. With someone like this, it is complicated because there is no point in arguing or relationship counseling.

For many reasons, I am not looking to divorce right now, although this is not off the table for the future. For those of you with happy marriages, this decision and the following suggestion may not make sense, but OP will get it as her situation sounds similar. With my therapist's advice, I identified my current goal as being to minimize damage to the kids, so I have stopped saying anything back to him when I disagree with whatever he just said -- literally nothing -- and I just go on and do what I feel is right regardless of what he says or thinks. As a result, we have not had a blow-up in 3 weeks, although our conversations are pretty much confined to coordination about the kids activities and facts. My therapist helped me realize that I don't need to tell him what I think in order to feel like I am strong, or self actualizing, or whatever, and that as I can control my own behavior it is up to me to take an action to try to change the dynamic. Try this. It means that you are controlling the situation, not him, and just that thought makes the whole mess easier for me to handle mentally. Good luck, OP, and hugs -- this is difficult.

Same boat here, high functioning autistic spouse who gaslights, forgets what he just did or said, argues nastily about everything in front of the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did you respond to the text?

NEVER respond in a way that indicates he did not assault you.

Reiterate that you did not intend for the children to hear you. That you yelled out of fear and pain. Insist that in the future he lets you walk away, instead of physically forcing you back into the room and blocking your exit.

OP here- I said “you know what you did. You pushed me and blocked me from leaving the room. Stop trying to cover this up.” To which he responded, “you are a liar. You’ve tried this before. Complete liar. You are hurting the kids.”

Ok, you have a problem on your hands. My abusive DH used to do exactly this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So -- I'm just now realizing that my husband of 20+ years is also a manipulative narcissist...it is not apparent unless I don't go along with what he wants, and I think when I was younger I did this because it was easier and only now are we really battling it out over some big issues. From what I can now, my husband really believes his own versions of events, and he has the ability to completely forget things he did and said that others on this board would call 'unforgivable' -- no physical abuse, but a lot of verbal abuse if I don't agree with his opinions or actions. He doesn't think he is lying, or gaslighting, or covering up the truth, even though he is doing all of this routinely. With someone like this, it is complicated because there is no point in arguing or relationship counseling.

For many reasons, I am not looking to divorce right now, although this is not off the table for the future. For those of you with happy marriages, this decision and the following suggestion may not make sense, but OP will get it as her situation sounds similar. With my therapist's advice, I identified my current goal as being to minimize damage to the kids, so I have stopped saying anything back to him when I disagree with whatever he just said -- literally nothing -- and I just go on and do what I feel is right regardless of what he says or thinks. As a result, we have not had a blow-up in 3 weeks, although our conversations are pretty much confined to coordination about the kids activities and facts. My therapist helped me realize that I don't need to tell him what I think in order to feel like I am strong, or self actualizing, or whatever, and that as I can control my own behavior it is up to me to take an action to try to change the dynamic. Try this. It means that you are controlling the situation, not him, and just that thought makes the whole mess easier for me to handle mentally. Good luck, OP, and hugs -- this is difficult.

I am the lawyer who posted above, and I agree with your advice. This is not a serve him with papers and lets amicably separate. These men are really, really hard to divorce and the system is brutal. In a lot of ways the family court just is another tool for them to victimize. OP needs to plan. Part of the plan is figuring how to remain in the home to get things in order - unless leaving becomes necessary for physical safety, and then the calculation is different.