I want to get away from friend groups/communities with this specific type of woman: where to go?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every big city has people like this, because they gravitate toward big cities.

Specifically, people like this gravitate toward big cities after college graduation, because this is where they will have a better likelihood of meeting a spouse and also hone their type-A personality at work (Regardless of where they continue to work long-term). What the big city they go to is depends a little on interests, college, and where they are from originally, but every major US city (New York, Chicago, DC, SF, LA, Dallas, etc.) will all draw these types.

I agree with this, and know that a major reason this personality type bothers me is because I used to be like this. And I moved to the area because I was like this. And then I went through some things that made me stop being like this, but in the meantime got married, built a career, and had kids. So now I find myself aggravated by this personality and know I could probably get away from the worst of it by changing fields or moving, but doing so is challenging at midlife because of fairly deep ties to this area and a lot invested in my career and especially my present position (which I like a lot).

I don't blame people for being like this. Like I'm not mad at them for being ambitious or aggressive. Maybe sometimes in the moment I feel frustrated with them, but mostly I realize that my values and priorities have shifted and that's all it is. I just don't think this way anymore.

The hardest part for me is raising my kids in a community where these attitudes are common, and trying to fight it in my own parenting. My oldest is almost in MS and I think that's going to be the critical point for my spouse and I. He is not like this at all and never has been (that's part of why I changed) and it's not what we want our kids to believe. Yet here we are. I understand this is a challenge of our own making, but it is a challenge nonetheless.

Is this OP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is such an eye opening thread for me! I have been dealing with a woman exactly like this for a while and I am mystified as to why she appears to be so triggered by me! Can someone more socially fluent than me please analyze:

Her: tall, thin stunning blonde, fancy preppy clothes, rich husband, 2 adorable kids under 2, beautiful house and lots of fancy vacations. Went to a preppy undergrad school and works in Marketing. Very Americana upper class/upper middle class preppy life. Queen B with a group of less attractive women who follow her around. They are all really nice and I get along with them all individually!

Me: short petite middle eastern brunette. I’m basically her opposite in every way. I dress in understated and simple and classic clothes; I’m nerdy and bookish, grew up abroad with a lot of foreign travel; have certain perceived status signifiers but not at all comparable to her wealth. I have no idea why she has targeted me for bullying since the first time we met. She’d refuse to acknowledge me or make eye contact and only scowl at me if I looked her way. In groups she’d go out of her way to overshadow me and talk over me. If someone is talking about something…I’d know something about she will answer before I do and not let me get a word in. She either straight up bullies me or tries to boss me around. “Why did you wear the brown Birkenstocks? Get the cute silver ones!” Just randomly unsolicited advice.

She will also try to exclude me by giving me dirty looks and ensuring I don’t dare speak to “her” friends!

OP again, same writing style and all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. I know women like this. In my world they are mostly lawyers or in PR. They’re competitive but also want to be viewed as fun, down to earth (so not) and popular. On Urban Baby some people called these women ‘great group of friends’ women because IRL they were always letting you know how they were going out for ‘ladies nights’ and spa days with their ‘great group’ of friends. Their kids too, of course, always have a ‘great group of friends’.

I have been part of some of these "great groups of friends" and while I do think some people really love it, it's not for me. I do so much better with people either 1:1 or in a group that is more mixed (men and women, people who know each other in different ways, not so homogenous as these female friend groups). I find it hard to get to know people in a group like that, and even when everyone is genuinely friends and there's not like toxic queen b vibes, there are sometimes subtleties to relationships that I find a bit off-putting.

Also I am just not a big drinker and for whatever reason that seems to be a problem in these groups in a way it never is in other settings. It's the one situation where people seem to care if I'm not drinking at all or if I "only" have one drink. For me it's about my health and also just learning that as I age, alcohol impacts me more and I don't want to be hung over or tired in the morning. Every group of women I've been a part of has always been extremely alcohol-focused and it's just not for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every big city has people like this, because they gravitate toward big cities.

Specifically, people like this gravitate toward big cities after college graduation, because this is where they will have a better likelihood of meeting a spouse and also hone their type-A personality at work (Regardless of where they continue to work long-term). What the big city they go to is depends a little on interests, college, and where they are from originally, but every major US city (New York, Chicago, DC, SF, LA, Dallas, etc.) will all draw these types.

I agree with this, and know that a major reason this personality type bothers me is because I used to be like this. And I moved to the area because I was like this. And then I went through some things that made me stop being like this, but in the meantime got married, built a career, and had kids. So now I find myself aggravated by this personality and know I could probably get away from the worst of it by changing fields or moving, but doing so is challenging at midlife because of fairly deep ties to this area and a lot invested in my career and especially my present position (which I like a lot).

I don't blame people for being like this. Like I'm not mad at them for being ambitious or aggressive. Maybe sometimes in the moment I feel frustrated with them, but mostly I realize that my values and priorities have shifted and that's all it is. I just don't think this way anymore.

The hardest part for me is raising my kids in a community where these attitudes are common, and trying to fight it in my own parenting. My oldest is almost in MS and I think that's going to be the critical point for my spouse and I. He is not like this at all and never has been (that's part of why I changed) and it's not what we want our kids to believe. Yet here we are. I understand this is a challenge of our own making, but it is a challenge nonetheless.

Sorry what is the challenge you and your husband are facing raising your kid(s)? Other kids’ moms or yall want to be laid back and see where that gets you? Try GDS, has something for everyone, pick your own path is fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every big city has people like this, because they gravitate toward big cities.

Specifically, people like this gravitate toward big cities after college graduation, because this is where they will have a better likelihood of meeting a spouse and also hone their type-A personality at work (Regardless of where they continue to work long-term). What the big city they go to is depends a little on interests, college, and where they are from originally, but every major US city (New York, Chicago, DC, SF, LA, Dallas, etc.) will all draw these types.

I agree with this, and know that a major reason this personality type bothers me is because I used to be like this. And I moved to the area because I was like this. And then I went through some things that made me stop being like this, but in the meantime got married, built a career, and had kids. So now I find myself aggravated by this personality and know I could probably get away from the worst of it by changing fields or moving, but doing so is challenging at midlife because of fairly deep ties to this area and a lot invested in my career and especially my present position (which I like a lot).

I don't blame people for being like this. Like I'm not mad at them for being ambitious or aggressive. Maybe sometimes in the moment I feel frustrated with them, but mostly I realize that my values and priorities have shifted and that's all it is. I just don't think this way anymore.

The hardest part for me is raising my kids in a community where these attitudes are common, and trying to fight it in my own parenting. My oldest is almost in MS and I think that's going to be the critical point for my spouse and I. He is not like this at all and never has been (that's part of why I changed) and it's not what we want our kids to believe. Yet here we are. I understand this is a challenge of our own making, but it is a challenge nonetheless.

Is this OP?

Nope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I know women like this. In my world they are mostly lawyers or in PR. They’re competitive but also want to be viewed as fun, down to earth (so not) and popular. On Urban Baby some people called these women ‘great group of friends’ women because IRL they were always letting you know how they were going out for ‘ladies nights’ and spa days with their ‘great group’ of friends. Their kids too, of course, always have a ‘great group of friends’.

I have been part of some of these "great groups of friends" and while I do think some people really love it, it's not for me. I do so much better with people either 1:1 or in a group that is more mixed (men and women, people who know each other in different ways, not so homogenous as these female friend groups). I find it hard to get to know people in a group like that, and even when everyone is genuinely friends and there's not like toxic queen b vibes, there are sometimes subtleties to relationships that I find a bit off-putting.

Also I am just not a big drinker and for whatever reason that seems to be a problem in these groups in a way it never is in other settings. It's the one situation where people seem to care if I'm not drinking at all or if I "only" have one drink. For me it's about my health and also just learning that as I age, alcohol impacts me more and I don't want to be hung over or tired in the morning. Every group of women I've been a part of has always been extremely alcohol-focused and it's just not for me.

That’s funny, no one would even have a mimosa at our Bounce House & Bagels kid bday parties in Bethesda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what happens is sh*t needs to get done, so people ask people who have done the sh*t before successfully. Are they the nicest women you’d want to be friends with? Maybe not always. But they are there, doing things that benefit the community. Do they get a big head, are they rich enough that they have time to spare? Yes, often yes. This is the price of asking the quintessential PTA Mom or Church Lady to run things.

These women are rarely asked.

So why are others not stepping in and taking charge before they "maneuver" their way in? Others don't want to do take charge. It's similar to politics. A certain kind of personality is drawn to politics. People criticize them but don't want to jump in.

Someone else be proactive for a community event? Gasp.

Often other people don't step in because they don't want the event.

Our PTA organizes so many events throughout the year, I feel like it's too much. It becomes burdensome as a parent to participate because it seems like there is always something coming up that requires contributions and participation. My kids want to go to the event because it's talked up at school and their friends will be there, but for me it just means we're going to have to organize a weeknight around something at the school. I know some people love going but we don't -- I'm not super into small talk with other parents and on a weeknight my focus is on dinner, making sure kids do homework and take showers, and having a normal bedtime. I resent having those routines disrupted multiple times a month for school events.

The the school needs chaperones or volunteers to help with stuff around the school, my spouse and almost always volunteer. But we are not event people. I don't volunteer for these events because I don't like them. And I'm not particularly grateful to the people who organize them because they mostly just create obligation for me.

I agree with this. Same for all the organized teacher appreciation. I appreciate my teachers in my own way and don’t want to do your stuff PTA. Or the cookie carry things? Ask teachers - most don’t even want your cookies. It’s women creating more obligations and expectations and then expecting applause for doing so and many people feel guilt about it and contribute or participate because they feel pressure to do so.

Which brings us back to the OP. You’re either part of this whole ecosystem or you’re not. It’s easy to opt out. So opt out. Change the channel in your brain.

NP and you seriously need to look up the words “obligation” and “opportunity,” and learn the difference between those two things.

I have the opportunity to participate in PTA things like breakfast for the teachers; I sometimes do, I usually don’t. But I know I’m not *obligated* to do so. Instead, I choose to give cards and gifts to teachers in my own time, in my own way.

There are a lot of expectations out in the world that I choose not to feel pressured to meet. What with my free will and all. Do try to grow a spine and live your life the way you want to.

NP Obv there is a difference between obligation and opportunity, but when women (and men, but it's usually women) start planning dumb things they become the expectation and therefore really are in some ways an obligation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what happens is sh*t needs to get done, so people ask people who have done the sh*t before successfully. Are they the nicest women you’d want to be friends with? Maybe not always. But they are there, doing things that benefit the community. Do they get a big head, are they rich enough that they have time to spare? Yes, often yes. This is the price of asking the quintessential PTA Mom or Church Lady to run things.

These women are rarely asked.

So why are others not stepping in and taking charge before they "maneuver" their way in? Others don't want to do take charge. It's similar to politics. A certain kind of personality is drawn to politics. People criticize them but don't want to jump in.

Someone else be proactive for a community event? Gasp.

Often other people don't step in because they don't want the event.

Our PTA organizes so many events throughout the year, I feel like it's too much. It becomes burdensome as a parent to participate because it seems like there is always something coming up that requires contributions and participation. My kids want to go to the event because it's talked up at school and their friends will be there, but for me it just means we're going to have to organize a weeknight around something at the school. I know some people love going but we don't -- I'm not super into small talk with other parents and on a weeknight my focus is on dinner, making sure kids do homework and take showers, and having a normal bedtime. I resent having those routines disrupted multiple times a month for school events.

The the school needs chaperones or volunteers to help with stuff around the school, my spouse and almost always volunteer. But we are not event people. I don't volunteer for these events because I don't like them. And I'm not particularly grateful to the people who organize them because they mostly just create obligation for me.

I agree with this. Same for all the organized teacher appreciation. I appreciate my teachers in my own way and don’t want to do your stuff PTA. Or the cookie carry things? Ask teachers - most don’t even want your cookies. It’s women creating more obligations and expectations and then expecting applause for doing so and many people feel guilt about it and contribute or participate because they feel pressure to do so.

Which brings us back to the OP. You’re either part of this whole ecosystem or you’re not. It’s easy to opt out. So opt out. Change the channel in your brain.

NP and you seriously need to look up the words “obligation” and “opportunity,” and learn the difference between those two things.

I have the opportunity to participate in PTA things like breakfast for the teachers; I sometimes do, I usually don’t. But I know I’m not *obligated* to do so. Instead, I choose to give cards and gifts to teachers in my own time, in my own way.

There are a lot of expectations out in the world that I choose not to feel pressured to meet. What with my free will and all. Do try to grow a spine and live your life the way you want to.

NP Obv there is a difference between obligation and opportunity, but when women (and men, but it's usually women) start planning dumb things they become the expectation and therefore really are in some ways an obligation

Not really. Everyone in our neighborhood goes to the elementary school’s Trunk or Treat; it’s a big thing, never mind that we have a big, safe neighborhood with plenty of Trick-or-Treating. Guess what we’ve never gone to, because DH and I know about free will?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every big city has people like this, because they gravitate toward big cities.

Specifically, people like this gravitate toward big cities after college graduation, because this is where they will have a better likelihood of meeting a spouse and also hone their type-A personality at work (Regardless of where they continue to work long-term). What the big city they go to is depends a little on interests, college, and where they are from originally, but every major US city (New York, Chicago, DC, SF, LA, Dallas, etc.) will all draw these types.

I agree with this, and know that a major reason this personality type bothers me is because I used to be like this. And I moved to the area because I was like this. And then I went through some things that made me stop being like this, but in the meantime got married, built a career, and had kids. So now I find myself aggravated by this personality and know I could probably get away from the worst of it by changing fields or moving, but doing so is challenging at midlife because of fairly deep ties to this area and a lot invested in my career and especially my present position (which I like a lot).

I don't blame people for being like this. Like I'm not mad at them for being ambitious or aggressive. Maybe sometimes in the moment I feel frustrated with them, but mostly I realize that my values and priorities have shifted and that's all it is. I just don't think this way anymore.

The hardest part for me is raising my kids in a community where these attitudes are common, and trying to fight it in my own parenting. My oldest is almost in MS and I think that's going to be the critical point for my spouse and I. He is not like this at all and never has been (that's part of why I changed) and it's not what we want our kids to believe. Yet here we are. I understand this is a challenge of our own making, but it is a challenge nonetheless.

Sorry what is the challenge you and your husband are facing raising your kid(s)? Other kids’ moms or yall want to be laid back and see where that gets you? Try GDS, has something for everyone, pick your own path is fine.

Here here. I could have written this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I know women like this. In my world they are mostly lawyers or in PR. They’re competitive but also want to be viewed as fun, down to earth (so not) and popular. On Urban Baby some people called these women ‘great group of friends’ women because IRL they were always letting you know how they were going out for ‘ladies nights’ and spa days with their ‘great group’ of friends. Their kids too, of course, always have a ‘great group of friends’.

I have been part of some of these "great groups of friends" and while I do think some people really love it, it's not for me. I do so much better with people either 1:1 or in a group that is more mixed (men and women, people who know each other in different ways, not so homogenous as these female friend groups). I find it hard to get to know people in a group like that, and even when everyone is genuinely friends and there's not like toxic queen b vibes, there are sometimes subtleties to relationships that I find a bit off-putting.

Also I am just not a big drinker and for whatever reason that seems to be a problem in these groups in a way it never is in other settings. It's the one situation where people seem to care if I'm not drinking at all or if I "only" have one drink. For me it's about my health and also just learning that as I age, alcohol impacts me more and I don't want to be hung over or tired in the morning. Every group of women I've been a part of has always been extremely alcohol-focused and it's just not for me.

That’s funny, no one would even have a mimosa at our Bounce House & Bagels kid bday parties in Bethesda.

Wow. You are so awesome. What a great group of friends you have

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what happens is sh*t needs to get done, so people ask people who have done the sh*t before successfully. Are they the nicest women you’d want to be friends with? Maybe not always. But they are there, doing things that benefit the community. Do they get a big head, are they rich enough that they have time to spare? Yes, often yes. This is the price of asking the quintessential PTA Mom or Church Lady to run things.

These women are rarely asked.

So why are others not stepping in and taking charge before they "maneuver" their way in? Others don't want to do take charge. It's similar to politics. A certain kind of personality is drawn to politics. People criticize them but don't want to jump in.

Someone else be proactive for a community event? Gasp.

Often other people don't step in because they don't want the event.

Our PTA organizes so many events throughout the year, I feel like it's too much. It becomes burdensome as a parent to participate because it seems like there is always something coming up that requires contributions and participation. My kids want to go to the event because it's talked up at school and their friends will be there, but for me it just means we're going to have to organize a weeknight around something at the school. I know some people love going but we don't -- I'm not super into small talk with other parents and on a weeknight my focus is on dinner, making sure kids do homework and take showers, and having a normal bedtime. I resent having those routines disrupted multiple times a month for school events.

The the school needs chaperones or volunteers to help with stuff around the school, my spouse and almost always volunteer. But we are not event people. I don't volunteer for these events because I don't like them. And I'm not particularly grateful to the people who organize them because they mostly just create obligation for me.

I agree with this. Same for all the organized teacher appreciation. I appreciate my teachers in my own way and don’t want to do your stuff PTA. Or the cookie carry things? Ask teachers - most don’t even want your cookies. It’s women creating more obligations and expectations and then expecting applause for doing so and many people feel guilt about it and contribute or participate because they feel pressure to do so.

Which brings us back to the OP. You’re either part of this whole ecosystem or you’re not. It’s easy to opt out. So opt out. Change the channel in your brain.

NP and you seriously need to look up the words “obligation” and “opportunity,” and learn the difference between those two things.

I have the opportunity to participate in PTA things like breakfast for the teachers; I sometimes do, I usually don’t. But I know I’m not *obligated* to do so. Instead, I choose to give cards and gifts to teachers in my own time, in my own way.

There are a lot of expectations out in the world that I choose not to feel pressured to meet. What with my free will and all. Do try to grow a spine and live your life the way you want to.

NP Obv there is a difference between obligation and opportunity, but when women (and men, but it's usually women) start planning dumb things they become the expectation and therefore really are in some ways an obligation

You are so smart that you get to determine which activities are dumb. Yet you are not smart enough to determine that you don't have to participate. Think about that for a moment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every big city has people like this, because they gravitate toward big cities.

Specifically, people like this gravitate toward big cities after college graduation, because this is where they will have a better likelihood of meeting a spouse and also hone their type-A personality at work (Regardless of where they continue to work long-term). What the big city they go to is depends a little on interests, college, and where they are from originally, but every major US city (New York, Chicago, DC, SF, LA, Dallas, etc.) will all draw these types.

I don’t think OP’s topic is high achieving women.

I can’t tell if it’s something else about
(A) mentally unstable women with tons of time and desire to manipulative groups of whatever and give advice or orders, or
(B) if any woman in charge of managing something simply offends Op no matter what.

I think it's A. These women are insecure and anxious. They think that all their value lies in how much they can accomplish, and so they are always on the go. They are sensitive to rejection of any kind and will try to make anyone who rejects them feel what they are feeling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am very late to this party, but I avoid these women by finding the third type not mentioned in the OP, the smart, introverted loaner women who have more 1-1 friendships (who may be loosely acquainted with each other) than the hive type sorority sister relationships.

These women are more interested in connecting around common interests and values as opposed to social hierarchy dynamics.

This is me! I don't do group friendships. My bestfriend is similar to me. But we also get along with and are friendly with Queen Bs. I can be quite aggressive if someone is being rude to me, so with time, they learn not to try. But I am also very vocal about how appreciative I am of all the work they do. I call them to ask what I can do to help, and I pick what works for me and then let them do their thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every big city has people like this, because they gravitate toward big cities.

Specifically, people like this gravitate toward big cities after college graduation, because this is where they will have a better likelihood of meeting a spouse and also hone their type-A personality at work (Regardless of where they continue to work long-term). What the big city they go to is depends a little on interests, college, and where they are from originally, but every major US city (New York, Chicago, DC, SF, LA, Dallas, etc.) will all draw these types.

I don’t think OP’s topic is high achieving women.

I can’t tell if it’s something else about
(A) mentally unstable women with tons of time and desire to manipulative groups of whatever and give advice or orders, or
(B) if any woman in charge of managing something simply offends Op no matter what.

I think it's A. These women are insecure and anxious. They think that all their value lies in how much they can accomplish, and so they are always on the go. They are sensitive to rejection of any kind and will try to make anyone who rejects them feel what they are feeling.

This. The key descriptors here are: Type A, manipulative, controlling. There aren't that many people like this in the world but DC does seem to have more than typical, and it only take one in a workplace or friend group to wreak havoc. Yes, you can lay low and avoid them and focus on other people or just stick to yourself, but even doing that takes effort and it might inhibit other, pleasurable activities. Like if you have a manager like this, there are things you can do to survive and deal until you change jobs (or she does), but if she wasn't there you might just have a nice work environment.

But yes, these people have mental illness and their coping methods involve externalizing it onto the people around them.

[Anonymous]

I’m still amazed by how many women on this thread are denying that these Type A taskmasters, wannabes, and followers exist! I’m guessing the deniers are (1) not super-introspective and (2) don’t read a lot, otherwise they would know there are entire genreS of fiction devoted to these archetypes.

In all honesty I like these types of groups. I’m not cool/rich/pretty enough to be targeted or be right in the middle but if I get included in the periphery I’m happy to go along for the ride. My messy ND self can’t handle more/better social planning so I join with enthusiasm lol. I don’t care about the gossip so I zone out and don’t engage. Similarly happy to hear any tips or resources since I’m always overwhelmed—take what works and leave what doesn’t.

But everyone upthread is right, they’re not my real friends, and I don’t feel intrinsically threatened in any way because my values, background and lifestyle are different to the average in this type of group. The description of the “introverted loner woman” who does 1:1 friendships better is kind of a bummer, but thats basically me.