Advice Needed: parents who both work long hours

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^to pp former social worker mom: what’s DV shelter? How can I sponsor and ice cream party? What else could I volunteer to do? (I have the time and money).

A shelter for victims of domestic violence. Always a ton of kids in these.

You can do a lot of things if you want to help kids. You can put together care packages with books, toys, and clothes for kids entering into foster care or reuniting with their birth parents. Offer to teach a free art class and provide materials. Do a drive for adult bikes and help fix them up. A lot of people who are homeless have trouble keeping a job because they don’t have a good way of getting there.
I always think the DCUM demographic would be particularly good at helping kids who are aging out of the foster system with registering and preparing for the ACTs, applying for the myriad of scholarships they qualify for, and helping them transition to college. These kids just don’t know much about it, and CPS and high school guidance counselors are underpaid and overwhelmed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that "fun parts of parenting" PP is a troll anyway, but if not I feel bad for her. Parenting is in the small moments, when you're doing something mundane and then suddenly your 4yo turns to you with joy or a comment that cracks you up.

If you get a lot of fulfilment from your job, that's great. But don't deluxe yourself about the tradeoffs. I wouldn't miss this for anything.

Ok, what time do you get home from work? Did you miss the part a about spending 4 hours a day on weekdays and all weekend with the kids? Do you think moms who work full time are bad parents for missing out on every single small moment?

Let’s not turn this into a working moms vs SAHM debate. The fact is, lots and lots of moms choose to work even when they don’t have to. I know, my mom worked full time and I never felt like I needed her more. We were very close and still are, and I respect her so much. I want my kids to have that. I don’t think spending an extra hour a day doing the dishes myself is going to meaningfully affect their lives or make them feel more loved. Having a mother who is happy, fulfilled, and able to spend real time with them makes a huge difference. I know my personality and I know doing ALL of the grunt work (vs just some of it and getting help for the rest) would make me and all of us unhappy.

I’m not sure what you people do for a living, but this situation is de rigueur in highly educated professional fields. My husband and I both worked in biglaw - he became a partner, I peeled off and took a more interesting but lower pay and lower hours job. This is par for the course in that world. Husband earns the money, wife has the “hobby job” (and sometimes the roles are reversed). For every partner who is married to a SAHM there seems to be a partner married to another partner (now that arrangement I will never wrap my head around). I truly feel like I have it all, though it does make me sad sometimes that my husband works so much. If I had a meaningless job that I didn’t like I’d imagine feeling differently.

I’m not trying to brag or tell you how I did everything right in life. I’m just saying it is entirely possible for two parents to work significant hours and still have a happy, healthy family life. I know many people aren’t as fortunate and I feel like people like PP are bitter with their lot and enjoy feeling like martyrs. The thing is, you don’t have to spend your morning making your kids individual bento boxes for lunch (my kids buy lunch at school). You don’t have to work part time so that you can take your kids to Kumon or their chess lessons (my kids come home and play with each other or neighborhood friends). Yes, those are trade offs, but my kids really don’t care whether I send them little notes in their lunch box everyday. Frankly I think they’d be embarrassed. But then again, I’m not a helicopter parent and it’s really important to me that my kids don’t feel like special snowflakes.

Thanks for this lecture, especially what's " de rigeur in highly edicated fields" lol. I'm former biglaw and still work full-time as an attorney.

No one is telling OP to wash her own dishes.

There is limited time in everyone's day and it's a choice about how to spend them. Outsourcing helps to a certain point to take tasks off your list, but after that you lose time with your kids and that's fine if it's what you want.

So this is unkind. I don’t read it as a lecture, certainly compared to posts with less evidence and more moralizing.

Notice that OP is asking for advice on how to make it work. She’s not discussing the turmoil that women with post-secondary degrees often face: Did I pass the bar and work my butt off in law school only to give it all up - then what was it all for? There are constantly articles about women not being in leadership, or on boards, or the c-suite and sometimes it makes me feel bad that I don’t want it bad enough- that I’m leaving to other women to sacrifice in order to succeed. That doesn’t mean she’s not dealing with it - she’s just wondering if any of you have made it work and if so, how. Key point here - women helping women is never a bad thing. Women tearing down women, though...

Have we seen a single story yet in this thread where the dad goes part time or gets off the partner track?

[Anonymous]

It's not so much OP who people are reacting to this far down the thread. It's the other "only the fun parts of parenting" PP whose tone I have no problem judging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that "fun parts of parenting" PP is a troll anyway, but if not I feel bad for her. Parenting is in the small moments, when you're doing something mundane and then suddenly your 4yo turns to you with joy or a comment that cracks you up.

If you get a lot of fulfilment from your job, that's great. But don't deluxe yourself about the tradeoffs. I wouldn't miss this for anything.

Ok, what time do you get home from work? Did you miss the part a about spending 4 hours a day on weekdays and all weekend with the kids? Do you think moms who work full time are bad parents for missing out on every single small moment?

Let’s not turn this into a working moms vs SAHM debate. The fact is, lots and lots of moms choose to work even when they don’t have to. I know, my mom worked full time and I never felt like I needed her more. We were very close and still are, and I respect her so much. I want my kids to have that. I don’t think spending an extra hour a day doing the dishes myself is going to meaningfully affect their lives or make them feel more loved. Having a mother who is happy, fulfilled, and able to spend real time with them makes a huge difference. I know my personality and I know doing ALL of the grunt work (vs just some of it and getting help for the rest) would make me and all of us unhappy.

I’m not sure what you people do for a living, but this situation is de rigueur in highly educated professional fields. My husband and I both worked in biglaw - he became a partner, I peeled off and took a more interesting but lower pay and lower hours job. This is par for the course in that world. Husband earns the money, wife has the “hobby job” (and sometimes the roles are reversed). For every partner who is married to a SAHM there seems to be a partner married to another partner (now that arrangement I will never wrap my head around). I truly feel like I have it all, though it does make me sad sometimes that my husband works so much. If I had a meaningless job that I didn’t like I’d imagine feeling differently.

I’m not trying to brag or tell you how I did everything right in life. I’m just saying it is entirely possible for two parents to work significant hours and still have a happy, healthy family life. I know many people aren’t as fortunate and I feel like people like PP are bitter with their lot and enjoy feeling like martyrs. The thing is, you don’t have to spend your morning making your kids individual bento boxes for lunch (my kids buy lunch at school). You don’t have to work part time so that you can take your kids to Kumon or their chess lessons (my kids come home and play with each other or neighborhood friends). Yes, those are trade offs, but my kids really don’t care whether I send them little notes in their lunch box everyday. Frankly I think they’d be embarrassed. But then again, I’m not a helicopter parent and it’s really important to me that my kids don’t feel like special snowflakes.

Thanks for this lecture, especially what's " de rigeur in highly edicated fields" lol. I'm former biglaw and still work full-time as an attorney.

No one is telling OP to wash her own dishes.

There is limited time in everyone's day and it's a choice about how to spend them. Outsourcing helps to a certain point to take tasks off your list, but after that you lose time with your kids and that's fine if it's what you want.

So this is unkind. I don’t read it as a lecture, certainly compared to posts with less evidence and more moralizing.

Notice that OP is asking for advice on how to make it work. She’s not discussing the turmoil that women with post-secondary degrees often face: Did I pass the bar and work my butt off in law school only to give it all up - then what was it all for? There are constantly articles about women not being in leadership, or on boards, or the c-suite and sometimes it makes me feel bad that I don’t want it bad enough- that I’m leaving to other women to sacrifice in order to succeed. That doesn’t mean she’s not dealing with it - she’s just wondering if any of you have made it work and if so, how. Key point here - women helping women is never a bad thing. Women tearing down women, though...

Have we seen a single story yet in this thread where the dad goes part time or gets off the partner track?

I think women who have kids late and only have one can make it work. There is this one mom at our preschool who has a high powered job and a husband who seems more available during the week. They are early forties with one child so they had almost 20 years to build their careers. I don’t know her well enough if they tried to have more, dealt with infertility, got married late, previously divorced, etc.

I had my first child at 30 and third child at 38. She had her first and only child at ~40.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pp here. I just wanted to add that I used to work full time and I felt like I did not have enough time with my kids. The morning rush to get ready was not qualify fine spent and after work we had 1-2 hours. This wasn’t enough time. For some people, that 1 hour of time may be enough.

I also didn’t like how I was not taking care of myself. I was too tired to work out.

DH does not feel the same. He doesn’t feel guilty for not being a chaperone for a field trip or missing a class party. I wonder if the moms (or dads) know how sad their kids look when they are one of the few without a parent at their party or show. It is even sadder if the kid is so used to parent not coming that they don’t even feel bothered by it.

Oh come off it. I am a social worker turned SAHM, and I find this ridiculous. My kids, like most of the kids on DCUM, are already over privileged with a little too much oversight into their day to day lives.

If you want to help sad children, then put on an ice cream social at the DV shelter. There are tons of sad kids there. Don’t hop on message boards to troll working mothers.

Pp here. I also wrote there are orphans, kids with working single parents, etc.

I’m not trolling working mothers. I used to be one. That does not mean that their kid doesn’t look disappointed when their mom doesn’t come to some school event.

I’m a SAHM who will probably go into volunteering soon.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I leave for work at 6am and get home around 5:30pm, and my husband is in big law so long hours every day. We are expecting our 4th kid. Our kids are in school/preschool all day then we have a sitter who works from 4-8pm. We also have a housekeeper who comes twice a week. I’m perfectly happy with the set up. My husband makes a lot of money so that neither of us has to do housework beyond light picking up, and I have my dream career plus the big(ish) family I wanted. I wouldn’t want to give up the money or personal fulfillment for the additional 1-2 hours per day doing housework and hounding the kids about their worksheets or picking up their socks, but that’s just me. Maybe things will change when they are in middle school.

This can’t possibly be real. You spend… an hour? At the most? Per day with your kids during the week, and you’re pregnant with your fourth child? Sweet Jesus.

I had the same sentiment but didn’t want to say it. Why did you choose to have a fourth PP?

Huh. I didn't see it that way. But it does sound to me like she has a family dinner with the babysitter instead of her DH every night. I hope she likes the babysitter!

I didn't assume she does family dinner. What's the point of a babysitter until 8pm every night if this PP gets home at 5:30? I don't understand.

Also, the things she so easily dismisses, like hounding the kids about their worksheets, is part of parenting. It's part of being a family. People who dismiss the mundane don't realize how much of life is in that space, and how much you miss when you don't have it.

I’m the first poster. I spend an hour with them in the morning and then 2-3 in the evening, then all weekend. Yes, the biggest downside is that our sitter eats with us instead of my husband most weekdays. Our sitter helps clean up after dinner, getting the kids stuff packed for the next day, and helps me in making sure the kids are getting through the bedtime routine. My husband sees them for 2-3 hours in the morning and then an hour in the evening, plus most of the weekend. He does sacrifice, but it’s worth literally having everything we could want and never having to worry about money for retirement, college, etc.

I don’t miss hounding them about worksheets, cleaning up their dishes, and packing their backpacks even if that is part of “parenting.” I did it for a really long time before we could afford help. Our sitter does that while I spend quality time with them. It’s much better this way.

How do you spend an hour with them in the morning if you leave for work at 6am?

But yeah, different strokes and all that. I wouldn’t want to outsource that much of my parenting life (and I sure as hell wouldn’t have a fourth kid if I already did so much outsourcing) to have everything I could want. It’s just stuff.

So there you have it, OP: be rich and outsource. That’s how it works with parents who both work long hours.

They wake up between 5 and 5:30. As they grow older I’m sure they will sleep in more but then I’ll get to spend more of the evenings with them.

It’s not really about stuff, it’s about not having to do as much of the grunt work of parenting that takes so much time and leaves me frustrated and exhausted with them. Our time together is quality time and I’m in a much better place to really appreciate them. I did it when I was on maternity leave with my later kids (I took between 8 months and a year for each) and I still do it on the weekends so I know what it’s like. I see the upsides but personally for me the costs outweigh the benefits. I wouldn’t sacrifice my career, independence, and sense of self for the opportunity to be grumpy cleaning up spills in the kitchen or double checking that my third grader did his writing homework. And I like that they see that moms are their own people and do not live to wipe their noses or pack their lunches. I do know that means I’m missing out on some things. And obviously it only works if financially feasible.

This is not intended to be as judgmental as it will read, but it sounds like you only want the fun parts of parenting.

So? Who wouldn’t only want the fun parts of life? No need to be a martyr

Just think about the message you’re sending your kids? I want to be around you sometimes, only if it’s fun and doesn’t inconvenience me? Do what you want, but that’s not great parenting IMO. (And taking care of the children you presumably chose to have doesn’t make you a martyr, JFC)

NP. I think people are way overreacting to this poster. The things she mentions she doesn't want to do include cleaning up spills in the kitchen and packing lunches. Do you really think it's a requirement of great parenting to be the one who does that mundane crap? Do you think kids even notice who does those things? Wiping noses and doing homework are a little different, because they're hands on, but anyone who says that it's bad parenting to not want to do your kids' laundry, for example, is being ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that "fun parts of parenting" PP is a troll anyway, but if not I feel bad for her. Parenting is in the small moments, when you're doing something mundane and then suddenly your 4yo turns to you with joy or a comment that cracks you up.

If you get a lot of fulfilment from your job, that's great. But don't deluxe yourself about the tradeoffs. I wouldn't miss this for anything.

Honestly, you're just as bad as the "fun parents of parenting" PP and you don't even see it. At least she owns how she feels. You try to act superior and humble at the same time and you're failing.

You don't have to be around your children 24/7 in order to maybe catch every single moment of joy with them. That's not how it works. PP says she spends the whole weekend with her kids, and she also sees them mornings and evenings during the week. She doesn't have to be there putting away Tupperware in the pantry in case one of her kids says something funny. That stuff will happen when they're at a friend's house. At school. With their grandparents. Playing on their own. A million times that you wouldn't see even if you were a SAHM. You might not want PP's way of life, and that's fine, but you don't have to be sanctimonious and rude about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that "fun parts of parenting" PP is a troll anyway, but if not I feel bad for her. Parenting is in the small moments, when you're doing something mundane and then suddenly your 4yo turns to you with joy or a comment that cracks you up.

If you get a lot of fulfilment from your job, that's great. But don't deluxe yourself about the tradeoffs. I wouldn't miss this for anything.

Ok, what time do you get home from work? Did you miss the part a about spending 4 hours a day on weekdays and all weekend with the kids? Do you think moms who work full time are bad parents for missing out on every single small moment?

Let’s not turn this into a working moms vs SAHM debate. The fact is, lots and lots of moms choose to work even when they don’t have to. I know, my mom worked full time and I never felt like I needed her more. We were very close and still are, and I respect her so much. I want my kids to have that. I don’t think spending an extra hour a day doing the dishes myself is going to meaningfully affect their lives or make them feel more loved. Having a mother who is happy, fulfilled, and able to spend real time with them makes a huge difference. I know my personality and I know doing ALL of the grunt work (vs just some of it and getting help for the rest) would make me and all of us unhappy.

I’m not sure what you people do for a living, but this situation is de rigueur in highly educated professional fields. My husband and I both worked in biglaw - he became a partner, I peeled off and took a more interesting but lower pay and lower hours job. This is par for the course in that world. Husband earns the money, wife has the “hobby job” (and sometimes the roles are reversed). For every partner who is married to a SAHM there seems to be a partner married to another partner (now that arrangement I will never wrap my head around). I truly feel like I have it all, though it does make me sad sometimes that my husband works so much. If I had a meaningless job that I didn’t like I’d imagine feeling differently.

I’m not trying to brag or tell you how I did everything right in life. I’m just saying it is entirely possible for two parents to work significant hours and still have a happy, healthy family life. I know many people aren’t as fortunate and I feel like people like PP are bitter with their lot and enjoy feeling like martyrs. The thing is, you don’t have to spend your morning making your kids individual bento boxes for lunch (my kids buy lunch at school). You don’t have to work part time so that you can take your kids to Kumon or their chess lessons (my kids come home and play with each other or neighborhood friends). Yes, those are trade offs, but my kids really don’t care whether I send them little notes in their lunch box everyday. Frankly I think they’d be embarrassed. But then again, I’m not a helicopter parent and it’s really important to me that my kids don’t feel like special snowflakes.

There's no way that poster works. And if she does, she's the biggest hypocrite ever. Also, her kids better be homeschooled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that "fun parts of parenting" PP is a troll anyway, but if not I feel bad for her. Parenting is in the small moments, when you're doing something mundane and then suddenly your 4yo turns to you with joy or a comment that cracks you up.

If you get a lot of fulfilment from your job, that's great. But don't deluxe yourself about the tradeoffs. I wouldn't miss this for anything.

Ok, what time do you get home from work? Did you miss the part a about spending 4 hours a day on weekdays and all weekend with the kids? Do you think moms who work full time are bad parents for missing out on every single small moment?

Let’s not turn this into a working moms vs SAHM debate. The fact is, lots and lots of moms choose to work even when they don’t have to. I know, my mom worked full time and I never felt like I needed her more. We were very close and still are, and I respect her so much. I want my kids to have that. I don’t think spending an extra hour a day doing the dishes myself is going to meaningfully affect their lives or make them feel more loved. Having a mother who is happy, fulfilled, and able to spend real time with them makes a huge difference. I know my personality and I know doing ALL of the grunt work (vs just some of it and getting help for the rest) would make me and all of us unhappy.

I’m not sure what you people do for a living, but this situation is de rigueur in highly educated professional fields. My husband and I both worked in biglaw - he became a partner, I peeled off and took a more interesting but lower pay and lower hours job. This is par for the course in that world. Husband earns the money, wife has the “hobby job” (and sometimes the roles are reversed). For every partner who is married to a SAHM there seems to be a partner married to another partner (now that arrangement I will never wrap my head around). I truly feel like I have it all, though it does make me sad sometimes that my husband works so much. If I had a meaningless job that I didn’t like I’d imagine feeling differently.

I’m not trying to brag or tell you how I did everything right in life. I’m just saying it is entirely possible for two parents to work significant hours and still have a happy, healthy family life. I know many people aren’t as fortunate and I feel like people like PP are bitter with their lot and enjoy feeling like martyrs. The thing is, you don’t have to spend your morning making your kids individual bento boxes for lunch (my kids buy lunch at school). You don’t have to work part time so that you can take your kids to Kumon or their chess lessons (my kids come home and play with each other or neighborhood friends). Yes, those are trade offs, but my kids really don’t care whether I send them little notes in their lunch box everyday. Frankly I think they’d be embarrassed. But then again, I’m not a helicopter parent and it’s really important to me that my kids don’t feel like special snowflakes.

I just don’t believe you. How is it possible your kids wake up at 5-5:30 and go to bed at 7:30-8:30? Are they much older? They cannot possibly be little.

Not sure what’s so unbelievable about that?

+1

My kids sleep more like 8-7 but our neighbors' kids have woken up at 5 am their whole lives and they don't go to sleep before 8 pm ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

NP. I think people are way overreacting to this poster. The things she mentions she doesn't want to do include cleaning up spills in the kitchen and packing lunches. Do you really think it's a requirement of great parenting to be the one who does that mundane crap? Do you think kids even notice who does those things? Wiping noses and doing homework are a little different, because they're hands on, but anyone who says that it's bad parenting to not want to do your kids' laundry, for example, is being ridiculous.

I will preface this by saying that I genuinely don’t care how other people raise their kids, but I actually think this attitude is part of our societal tendency to degrade women and traditional women’s work (and yes I was a WOHM). I actually get not wanting to do it, but the condescending dismissiveness is offensive, especially since you are almost certainly paying other women to do it for you (and your spouse, obviously).

I mean outsource if you want, but maybe try to show a little respect? Clearly if you are willing to pay someone to do those tasks you understand that they are tasks worth doing, even if you’re too good for that kind of thing yourself…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ok, sounds like you believe a woman should limit herself to one child only lest they think their mother doesn’t love them because she doesn’t hover over them at every moment. No wonder why so many young adults have trouble coping with the realities of growing up into independent people who do not need their moms to tie their shoes or do their homework for them. Kids love being with their parents, but they also love playing with their siblings and friends and love some alone time. Mine also happen to love playing with their sitter, she’s awesome! And do you really prefer that your child not exist if you could only spend 4 hours a day with them instead of 5?

Not really. My reply to you was in response to your overall tone and flippant attitude towards taking care of children. You are clearly one of those women who views her children as accessories, and undoubtedly you are having four because you think it’s a status symbol. It has nothing to do with the amount of time you do or don’t spend with your kids or about how much time other people spend with their kids. Your attitude just comes through so strongly in your posts it’s impossible not to notice.

What's funny to me, as an outsider to this conversation, is that YOU, prior PP, are the one with the attitude. The original PP wants to outsource stuff like making her kids' lunches or doing laundry or cleaning the kitchen but you want to act like it means when a child starts to cry she just pages the sitter to take care of it. That's not at all what she said. Also, original PP NEVER SAID that she was better than anyone who makes different decisions than she does, yet you (and some of the other posters, unless they're all you) act you are better than the first PP because you clean your kid's toilet. Seriously, take a long look at why you're being so nasty to someone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that "fun parts of parenting" PP is a troll anyway, but if not I feel bad for her. Parenting is in the small moments, when you're doing something mundane and then suddenly your 4yo turns to you with joy or a comment that cracks you up.

If you get a lot of fulfilment from your job, that's great. But don't deluxe yourself about the tradeoffs. I wouldn't miss this for anything.

Ok, what time do you get home from work? Did you miss the part a about spending 4 hours a day on weekdays and all weekend with the kids? Do you think moms who work full time are bad parents for missing out on every single small moment?

Let’s not turn this into a working moms vs SAHM debate. The fact is, lots and lots of moms choose to work even when they don’t have to. I know, my mom worked full time and I never felt like I needed her more. We were very close and still are, and I respect her so much. I want my kids to have that. I don’t think spending an extra hour a day doing the dishes myself is going to meaningfully affect their lives or make them feel more loved. Having a mother who is happy, fulfilled, and able to spend real time with them makes a huge difference. I know my personality and I know doing ALL of the grunt work (vs just some of it and getting help for the rest) would make me and all of us unhappy.

I’m not sure what you people do for a living, but this situation is de rigueur in highly educated professional fields. My husband and I both worked in biglaw - he became a partner, I peeled off and took a more interesting but lower pay and lower hours job. This is par for the course in that world. Husband earns the money, wife has the “hobby job” (and sometimes the roles are reversed). For every partner who is married to a SAHM there seems to be a partner married to another partner (now that arrangement I will never wrap my head around). I truly feel like I have it all, though it does make me sad sometimes that my husband works so much. If I had a meaningless job that I didn’t like I’d imagine feeling differently.

I’m not trying to brag or tell you how I did everything right in life. I’m just saying it is entirely possible for two parents to work significant hours and still have a happy, healthy family life. I know many people aren’t as fortunate and I feel like people like PP are bitter with their lot and enjoy feeling like martyrs. The thing is, you don’t have to spend your morning making your kids individual bento boxes for lunch (my kids buy lunch at school). You don’t have to work part time so that you can take your kids to Kumon or their chess lessons (my kids come home and play with each other or neighborhood friends). Yes, those are trade offs, but my kids really don’t care whether I send them little notes in their lunch box everyday. Frankly I think they’d be embarrassed. But then again, I’m not a helicopter parent and it’s really important to me that my kids don’t feel like special snowflakes.

Thanks for this lecture, especially what's " de rigeur in highly edicated fields" lol. I'm former biglaw and still work full-time as an attorney.

No one is telling OP to wash her own dishes.

There is limited time in everyone's day and it's a choice about how to spend them. Outsourcing helps to a certain point to take tasks off your list, but after that you lose time with your kids and that's fine if it's what you want.

I’m the first PP who commented that outsourcing PP pregnant with her fourth can’t be real, but not one of the recent posters.

For someone who claims to have it all figured out (the dream career! the fourth child!), you sure write an awful lot here. What I can’t reconcile is having such a strong preference for only the “fun” parts of parenting and then going on to have a *fourth* kid. It’s hard to relate to wanting to outsource THAT much of parenting (because when you have four kids, or even three, like I do), there’s a ton of not fun parts. I’m not a martyr, but I do value my ability to hang in there with my kids when things are tough and to find meaning in the little stuff you won’t do. A lot goes unsaid, but it’s there if you take the time to look, which you’re pretty clear you have no interest in doing.

What part about “help” do you not understand? With four kids, of course there are hard parts even when you have a sitter and housekeeper. But the more help you get for those things where it doesn’t really matter who does it, the more you can spend quality time with them. So on the weekends, I show them how to make their bed and make sure they put their clothes in the laundry. But on weekdays, the sitter mostly handles stuff like that. When I’m helping my third grader with his homework, she’s playing legos with the first grader. When I’m cooking dinner my older kids want to play outside on the swing set and she’ll keep an eye on them while my preschooler “helps” me make dinner. How do you think people have raised families since the beginning of human existence? Do you think it’s required for a mother to be hovering over only one child at every given second? Do you value independence in your children and their ability to relate well to their siblings and other adults?

Dp here. I get it. I have a friend with 2 and she sends them to daycare or camp all day to tire them out. When they are home, they fight and cry. She lets them play and she puts them to bed. Her favorite time is when they are sleeping. On weekends, she and her husband take turns getting alone time. They take plenty of Instagram worthy pictures at least once a week.

I’m a SAHM of 3. I kind of suck at all the housework. I stay home and outsource as much as possible. We have a cleaner and a separate housekeeper/cook. I didn’t stay home to clean all day. I stay home to spend quality time with my kids.

Strangely I feel like I don’t spend enough quality time with my older 2 because I spend so much of my time focusing on the younger one. I have some guilt because older ones were with a nanny and daycare when they were younger and I was working. Now I spend more time with youngest and still don’t get to spend as much time with older kids. It sounds ridiculous because we are all home and spend a lot of time together.

This is so odd to me. I work full-time but have a flexible job and never work weekends. I also work from home now (probably forever), so I get even more time with no commute. I also have a maid and a house manager. As a result, I feel like I get to spend a lot of time with my kids, and pretty much all of it is quality time, since the housework stuff is all taken care of. Yet you, who stay at home for the purpose of spending quality time with your kids, feel like you don't do so. Interesting...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pp here. I just wanted to add that I used to work full time and I felt like I did not have enough time with my kids. The morning rush to get ready was not qualify fine spent and after work we had 1-2 hours. This wasn’t enough time. For some people, that 1 hour of time may be enough.

I also didn’t like how I was not taking care of myself. I was too tired to work out.

DH does not feel the same. He doesn’t feel guilty for not being a chaperone for a field trip or missing a class party. I wonder if the moms (or dads) know how sad their kids look when they are one of the few without a parent at their party or show. It is even sadder if the kid is so used to parent not coming that they don’t even feel bothered by it.

Oh come off it. I am a social worker turned SAHM, and I find this ridiculous. My kids, like most of the kids on DCUM, are already over privileged with a little too much oversight into their day to day lives.

If you want to help sad children, then put on an ice cream social at the DV shelter. There are tons of sad kids there. Don’t hop on message boards to troll working mothers.

Pp here. I also wrote there are orphans, kids with working single parents, etc.

I’m not trolling working mothers. I used to be one. That does not mean that their kid doesn’t look disappointed when their mom doesn’t come to some school event.

I’m a SAHM who will probably go into volunteering soon.

So, I'm a teacher - how exactly would you like me to be at my kid's class party when I'm running the one in my classroom? Should I quit? Should all my co-workers who are also moms quit? If we do, who is going to teach your kids? Or is it ok because we have a job that you deem acceptable? Seriously, think about what you're saying here. You're coming off as a real jerk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ok, sounds like you believe a woman should limit herself to one child only lest they think their mother doesn’t love them because she doesn’t hover over them at every moment. No wonder why so many young adults have trouble coping with the realities of growing up into independent people who do not need their moms to tie their shoes or do their homework for them. Kids love being with their parents, but they also love playing with their siblings and friends and love some alone time. Mine also happen to love playing with their sitter, she’s awesome! And do you really prefer that your child not exist if you could only spend 4 hours a day with them instead of 5?

Not really. My reply to you was in response to your overall tone and flippant attitude towards taking care of children. You are clearly one of those women who views her children as accessories, and undoubtedly you are having four because you think it’s a status symbol. It has nothing to do with the amount of time you do or don’t spend with your kids or about how much time other people spend with their kids. Your attitude just comes through so strongly in your posts it’s impossible not to notice.

What's funny to me, as an outsider to this conversation, is that YOU, prior PP, are the one with the attitude. The original PP wants to outsource stuff like making her kids' lunches or doing laundry or cleaning the kitchen but you want to act like it means when a child starts to cry she just pages the sitter to take care of it. That's not at all what she said. Also, original PP NEVER SAID that she was better than anyone who makes different decisions than she does, yet you (and some of the other posters, unless they're all you) act you are better than the first PP because you clean your kid's toilet. Seriously, take a long look at why you're being so nasty to someone.

I think it’s because she thinks doing those tasks is beneath her. Would you have a good attitude toward someone who thought every aspect of your job is unimportant/ANY idiot could do it/they would never waste THEIR precious time doing it? Even if those things are true it is unbelievably condescending. I honestly don’t care who works and what tasks get outsourced in other families, but that PP comes off like a snotty, spoiled brat. But tone is hard to convey through writing, so maybe she isn’t. (But just FYI, a person doesn’t have to actually SAY “I think I am better than you” to communicate that they do indeed think they’re better than you. Are you serious with that?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

NP. I think people are way overreacting to this poster. The things she mentions she doesn't want to do include cleaning up spills in the kitchen and packing lunches. Do you really think it's a requirement of great parenting to be the one who does that mundane crap? Do you think kids even notice who does those things? Wiping noses and doing homework are a little different, because they're hands on, but anyone who says that it's bad parenting to not want to do your kids' laundry, for example, is being ridiculous.

I will preface this by saying that I genuinely don’t care how other people raise their kids, but I actually think this attitude is part of our societal tendency to degrade women and traditional women’s work (and yes I was a WOHM). I actually get not wanting to do it, but the condescending dismissiveness is offensive, especially since you are almost certainly paying other women to do it for you (and your spouse, obviously).

I mean outsource if you want, but maybe try to show a little respect? Clearly if you are willing to pay someone to do those tasks you understand that they are tasks worth doing, even if you’re too good for that kind of thing yourself…

Ok, you're really reading into that post, but if you notice, what was mentioned was parenting. By parents. It didn't say moms. So if in your household it's the mom that does all that stuff, then maybe you're the problem. In my household, there's no distinction between mom or dad when it comes to that stuff. Our kids were formula-fed because after a double mastectomy there was no choice, so other than actually carrying them, there wasn't anything I did that my husband didn't also do, and the same is true today. The point in that post had nothing to do with women doing the work. Nothing at all. The point is that parenting doesn't have to include all the little things your kids never see. The people who want to act like it does are martyrs and should at least own that that's what they're being.