Parents of boys who became incels

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

That they don't think that Andrew Tate is a loser? Please explain.

What’s your definition of a “real man”? Why shouldn’t boys be raised as feminists? You’re the one that said this stuff, I’m just commenting on YOUR words.

[Anonymous]

Men are not stepping up to run clubs unless they are profitable. In for profit groups, there are plenty of groups for men, but they mostly revolve around sports. The women's groups that are started are because women step up to donate their time. The men in my town only volunteer for sports and scouts and by middle school more than half of the kids are with professional coaches instead of volunteer dads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

When I say “real men” I am referring to men who are not incel men’s right activist losers. I am including literally every other man in my definition of “real men”. Try again.

So why can’t “real men” be raised in co-ed scouts? How does that prevent boys from becoming “real men”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

That they don't think that Andrew Tate is a loser? Please explain.

What’s your definition of a “real man”? Why shouldn’t boys be raised as feminists? You’re the one that said this stuff, I’m just commenting on YOUR words.

I'm a different poster. Boys can be raised as feminists, but it's unlikely they will join the same clubs as those that a lot of people looking at Andrew Tate are joining. Most "feminist" men enjoy coed clubs as well and aren't looking for strictly men oriented clubs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

Historically you are absolutely right. As an adult, I think it’s amazing to have these things for girls. I’m telling you that 8, 9, 10 year old boys do not have the same history that you and I do where girls couldn’t do that stuff and now they can and we love it. All they see, from when they are babies, is outward celebration of girls as a cohort, and not of boys. Yes, male athletes and male politicians are the “standard” and you’re obviously correct on your point but that’s the problem- they’re for everyone. It’s not “let’s watch boys basketball and celebrate boys and talk about how little boys can grow up to do this”, it’s just “basketball” and “kids”. Boys are not explicitly singled out the way girls are. And kids don’t get nuance, they just grow up with the message of “boys and men are just the standard that we rally against, and girls are special”. You may not like it, but failing to recognize this is why these boys are turning to MRA groups and trying to ruin the world.

So your issue is that women also watch the NBA? Your issue is that women and girls have too many “male” hobbies that are taking space away from boys?

Women’s bball has only just recently taken off to be more mainstream, mainly because of Caitlyn Clark. But otherwise, you turn on the tv, you ONLY see men. Most people would be hard pressed to name a top female athlete, aside from maybe 2-3. Ask them to name a male? You’ll get hundreds.

You’re rallying against the pendulum swing towards girls, but it’s really not even close to “even” yet. You’re rallying against boys and men being the majority of everything. They don’t want to share.

I’m trying really hard to explain to you what’s going on with little boys but you really and truly don’t want to hear it. All I know is, if boys are continually treated as lesser than girls AT YOUNG AGES and not given boys-only groups AT YOUNG AGES they will grow into teen boys who crave male role models and male spaces and the ONLY ONES AVAILABLE that “celebrate” boys and men are Tate and other losers.

You don’t even see what you’re doing. You’re saying for example that adding books by queer , black/brown, female, etc authors to classrooms doesn’t take away any books from cisgender white male authors. You’re right! We agree! All those books should be there! (Don’t listen to the loser arguing otherwise.) But what did we do when we added girls clubs and girls groups? We SUBTRACTED boys groups. Boy Scouts is just an easy example because it’s “Girl Scouts” (no boys allowed” and “scouts of America” now (both genders). Little league is the same way- both genders, but then softball is JUST girls. You see what I’m getting at? We didn’t add girls stuff and leave the boys stuff there. We added girls stuff and took away boys stuff. That’s the problem and the young boys are turning to the only boys groups out there, which are MRA groups!! Let’s add some GOOD boy only groups back into the mix, please!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

That they don't think that Andrew Tate is a loser? Please explain.

What’s your definition of a “real man”? Why shouldn’t boys be raised as feminists? You’re the one that said this stuff, I’m just commenting on YOUR words.

I'm a different poster. Boys can be raised as feminists, but it's unlikely they will join the same clubs as those that a lot of people looking at Andrew Tate are joining. Most "feminist" men enjoy coed clubs as well and aren't looking for strictly men oriented clubs.

I agree. And those boys, who are surrounded by strong capable women and realize that both sexes can be strong and capable for themselves, are not going to fall into the trap of listening to red pillers claiming women are trying to suppress or subjugate them. Raising boys as feminists is actually the answer.

Boys and men who have respect for women do not turn into incels. Period. Boys and men who think they are victims of women joining scouts will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

That they don't think that Andrew Tate is a loser? Please explain.

What’s your definition of a “real man”? Why shouldn’t boys be raised as feminists? You’re the one that said this stuff, I’m just commenting on YOUR words.

That’s a different poster, but a boy can be raised to be a feminist without tearing down and excluding boys. If my son wishes he could be in boy scouts with just boys that doesnt make him bad, just like your daughter wanting to do girls on the run with just girls doesnt make HER bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Historically you are absolutely right. As an adult, I think it’s amazing to have these things for girls. I’m telling you that 8, 9, 10 year old boys do not have the same history that you and I do where girls couldn’t do that stuff and now they can and we love it. All they see, from when they are babies, is outward celebration of girls as a cohort, and not of boys. Yes, male athletes and male politicians are the “standard” and you’re obviously correct on your point but that’s the problem- they’re for everyone. It’s not “let’s watch boys basketball and celebrate boys and talk about how little boys can grow up to do this”, it’s just “basketball” and “kids”. Boys are not explicitly singled out the way girls are. And kids don’t get nuance, they just grow up with the message of “boys and men are just the standard that we rally against, and girls are special”. You may not like it, but failing to recognize this is why these boys are turning to MRA groups and trying to ruin the world.

I understand what you're saying and feel similarly, though it's hard to articulate without getting strong pushback. FWIW, I'm a feminist, and consider my white CIS DS a feminist, but can also recognize the connection from "girls who run" and "girls who code" clubs to the current "manosphere" trap, which a few of his friends have disappointingly fallen into.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

That they don't think that Andrew Tate is a loser? Please explain.

What’s your definition of a “real man”? Why shouldn’t boys be raised as feminists? You’re the one that said this stuff, I’m just commenting on YOUR words.

I'm a different poster. Boys can be raised as feminists, but it's unlikely they will join the same clubs as those that a lot of people looking at Andrew Tate are joining. Most "feminist" men enjoy coed clubs as well and aren't looking for strictly men oriented clubs.

I agree. And those boys, who are surrounded by strong capable women and realize that both sexes can be strong and capable for themselves, are not going to fall into the trap of listening to red pillers claiming women are trying to suppress or subjugate them. Raising boys as feminists is actually the answer.

Boys and men who have respect for women do not turn into incels. Period. Boys and men who think they are victims of women joining scouts will.

Boys need strong capable women but they also need strong capable men, and your failure to realize that is what pushes these boys away. They aren’t women. They can respect women and believe women are strong and capable and smart but they also need to believe men are those things too. And no one is showing them the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

Historically you are absolutely right. As an adult, I think it’s amazing to have these things for girls. I’m telling you that 8, 9, 10 year old boys do not have the same history that you and I do where girls couldn’t do that stuff and now they can and we love it. All they see, from when they are babies, is outward celebration of girls as a cohort, and not of boys. Yes, male athletes and male politicians are the “standard” and you’re obviously correct on your point but that’s the problem- they’re for everyone. It’s not “let’s watch boys basketball and celebrate boys and talk about how little boys can grow up to do this”, it’s just “basketball” and “kids”. Boys are not explicitly singled out the way girls are. And kids don’t get nuance, they just grow up with the message of “boys and men are just the standard that we rally against, and girls are special”. You may not like it, but failing to recognize this is why these boys are turning to MRA groups and trying to ruin the world.

So your issue is that women also watch the NBA? Your issue is that women and girls have too many “male” hobbies that are taking space away from boys?

Women’s bball has only just recently taken off to be more mainstream, mainly because of Caitlyn Clark. But otherwise, you turn on the tv, you ONLY see men. Most people would be hard pressed to name a top female athlete, aside from maybe 2-3. Ask them to name a male? You’ll get hundreds.

You’re rallying against the pendulum swing towards girls, but it’s really not even close to “even” yet. You’re rallying against boys and men being the majority of everything. They don’t want to share.

I’m trying really hard to explain to you what’s going on with little boys but you really and truly don’t want to hear it. All I know is, if boys are continually treated as lesser than girls AT YOUNG AGES and not given boys-only groups AT YOUNG AGES they will grow into teen boys who crave male role models and male spaces and the ONLY ONES AVAILABLE that “celebrate” boys and men are Tate and other losers.

You don’t even see what you’re doing. You’re saying for example that adding books by queer , black/brown, female, etc authors to classrooms doesn’t take away any books from cisgender white male authors. You’re right! We agree! All those books should be there! (Don’t listen to the loser arguing otherwise.) But what did we do when we added girls clubs and girls groups? We SUBTRACTED boys groups. Boy Scouts is just an easy example because it’s “Girl Scouts” (no boys allowed” and “scouts of America” now (both genders). Little league is the same way- both genders, but then softball is JUST girls. You see what I’m getting at? We didn’t add girls stuff and leave the boys stuff there. We added girls stuff and took away boys stuff. That’s the problem and the young boys are turning to the only boys groups out there, which are MRA groups!! Let’s add some GOOD boy only groups back into the mix, please!

I think we just have fundamentally different views about this. There are many places to get male role models from, the biggest being their own father! Why are you blaming girls for taking away male role models when it should be starting at home first? Why is it not the parents job to set up strong, healthy role models for their children (of any sex)?
I don’t disagree that there could be boys only groups, I just don’t see it as detrimental to boys development. I just don’t like the blame for boys turning into incels because of girls gaining wider interests.

[Anonymous]

Why do we think upwards of 25% of boys are labeled as ADHD in elementary school? They grow up in an environment built for girls for 7 hours a day and are medicated to stay quieter. Our society no longer understands or appreciates little boys and this is the natural outcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

That they don't think that Andrew Tate is a loser? Please explain.

What’s your definition of a “real man”? Why shouldn’t boys be raised as feminists? You’re the one that said this stuff, I’m just commenting on YOUR words.

I'm a different poster. Boys can be raised as feminists, but it's unlikely they will join the same clubs as those that a lot of people looking at Andrew Tate are joining. Most "feminist" men enjoy coed clubs as well and aren't looking for strictly men oriented clubs.

I agree. And those boys, who are surrounded by strong capable women and realize that both sexes can be strong and capable for themselves, are not going to fall into the trap of listening to red pillers claiming women are trying to suppress or subjugate them. Raising boys as feminists is actually the answer.

Boys and men who have respect for women do not turn into incels. Period. Boys and men who think they are victims of women joining scouts will.

Boys need strong capable women but they also need strong capable men, and your failure to realize that is what pushes these boys away. They aren’t women. They can respect women and believe women are strong and capable and smart but they also need to believe men are those things too. And no one is showing them the way.

Again, that is the parents fault. Only. Society already preaches this, you admit, so until children are old enough to apparently turn on a tv and see that the majority of… everything… is men, that’s the parents job.

Someone a few pages back (mom of 4 boys, not sure if they are still posting) said raising boys as feminists is the antithesis to this. I firmly disagree. Raising girls up does not detract from boys - that is the dangerous incel mindset.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

Huh? Are you delusional?
The school gym doesn’t have a poster of male athletes, because that’s literally the standard. ANY major professional sport is ruled by men, that banner is trying to encourage girls to stick with sports, as they more often drop out vs boys.
Why can’t boys start their own club? Girls were excluded (and still are) from many male spaces, so they started their own clubs where they are allowed and allowed to be themselves.

Like, it’s f***ing crazy to me that people don’t see the history behind these decisions, and now decry that their boys are being discriminated against because girls have a girls coding club. No. That’s not how it works. And you are part of the problem if you’re raising your 4 boys to feel undervalued compared to girls and aren’t celebrating them on your own.

Historically you are absolutely right. As an adult, I think it’s amazing to have these things for girls. I’m telling you that 8, 9, 10 year old boys do not have the same history that you and I do where girls couldn’t do that stuff and now they can and we love it. All they see, from when they are babies, is outward celebration of girls as a cohort, and not of boys. Yes, male athletes and male politicians are the “standard” and you’re obviously correct on your point but that’s the problem- they’re for everyone. It’s not “let’s watch boys basketball and celebrate boys and talk about how little boys can grow up to do this”, it’s just “basketball” and “kids”. Boys are not explicitly singled out the way girls are. And kids don’t get nuance, they just grow up with the message of “boys and men are just the standard that we rally against, and girls are special”. You may not like it, but failing to recognize this is why these boys are turning to MRA groups and trying to ruin the world.

So your issue is that women also watch the NBA? Your issue is that women and girls have too many “male” hobbies that are taking space away from boys?

Women’s bball has only just recently taken off to be more mainstream, mainly because of Caitlyn Clark. But otherwise, you turn on the tv, you ONLY see men. Most people would be hard pressed to name a top female athlete, aside from maybe 2-3. Ask them to name a male? You’ll get hundreds.

You’re rallying against the pendulum swing towards girls, but it’s really not even close to “even” yet. You’re rallying against boys and men being the majority of everything. They don’t want to share.

I’m trying really hard to explain to you what’s going on with little boys but you really and truly don’t want to hear it. All I know is, if boys are continually treated as lesser than girls AT YOUNG AGES and not given boys-only groups AT YOUNG AGES they will grow into teen boys who crave male role models and male spaces and the ONLY ONES AVAILABLE that “celebrate” boys and men are Tate and other losers.

You don’t even see what you’re doing. You’re saying for example that adding books by queer , black/brown, female, etc authors to classrooms doesn’t take away any books from cisgender white male authors. You’re right! We agree! All those books should be there! (Don’t listen to the loser arguing otherwise.) But what did we do when we added girls clubs and girls groups? We SUBTRACTED boys groups. Boy Scouts is just an easy example because it’s “Girl Scouts” (no boys allowed” and “scouts of America” now (both genders). Little league is the same way- both genders, but then softball is JUST girls. You see what I’m getting at? We didn’t add girls stuff and leave the boys stuff there. We added girls stuff and took away boys stuff. That’s the problem and the young boys are turning to the only boys groups out there, which are MRA groups!! Let’s add some GOOD boy only groups back into the mix, please!

I think we just have fundamentally different views about this. There are many places to get male role models from, the biggest being their own father! Why are you blaming girls for taking away male role models when it should be starting at home first? Why is it not the parents job to set up strong, healthy role models for their children (of any sex)?
I don’t disagree that there could be boys only groups, I just don’t see it as detrimental to boys development. I just don’t like the blame for boys turning into incels because of girls gaining wider interests.

Ok, but try thinking of it this way- what if the schools said “you know what, the girls on the run club and the girls who code club are going to be dismantled, all the kids can just join all the clubs if they want. And we aren’t going to have a “boys one mile winner” and a “girls one mile winner” in gym, it’s just going to be one winner.”

You don’t think that would be detrimental to girls? I do.

But you’re saying taking away boys only groups is not detrimental to boys. So how do we rationalize that viewpoint, that many people - not just you- share?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

That they don't think that Andrew Tate is a loser? Please explain.

What’s your definition of a “real man”? Why shouldn’t boys be raised as feminists? You’re the one that said this stuff, I’m just commenting on YOUR words.

I'm a different poster. Boys can be raised as feminists, but it's unlikely they will join the same clubs as those that a lot of people looking at Andrew Tate are joining. Most "feminist" men enjoy coed clubs as well and aren't looking for strictly men oriented clubs.

I agree. And those boys, who are surrounded by strong capable women and realize that both sexes can be strong and capable for themselves, are not going to fall into the trap of listening to red pillers claiming women are trying to suppress or subjugate them. Raising boys as feminists is actually the answer.

Boys and men who have respect for women do not turn into incels. Period. Boys and men who think they are victims of women joining scouts will.

Boys need strong capable women but they also need strong capable men, and your failure to realize that is what pushes these boys away. They aren’t women. They can respect women and believe women are strong and capable and smart but they also need to believe men are those things too. And no one is showing them the way.

Again, that is the parents fault. Only. Society already preaches this, you admit, so until children are old enough to apparently turn on a tv and see that the majority of… everything… is men, that’s the parents job.

Someone a few pages back (mom of 4 boys, not sure if they are still posting) said raising boys as feminists is the antithesis to this. I firmly disagree. Raising girls up does not detract from boys - that is the dangerous incel mindset.

Well why is it the parents job to show boys the way, even if society thinks little boys are too loud and too disruptive and need to take Adderall to go to school- but it’s not the parents job to teach girls that they are smart and capable, we need to rely on taking special efforts to single out girls and make the school system cater to how girls learn, to help them succeed? Because right now they’re beating the boys hands down in academics at pretty much every level of education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

You’re absolutely right of course, but in my experience raising boys, the boys don’t see it that way. They do, in my opinion, need boys - only spaces, to learn how to be real men, from real male role models, and feel cohesiveness as boys and men. Right now the only way to get that is with alt right “men’s rights activist” groups, which is loathsome, and we need things like Boy Scouts and young men’s clubs and organizations that celebrate boys strengths and give them a strong identity as a boy. So strong, that when they see someone like Rogan making asinine comments, they laugh at how stupid it sounds. Instead of now where they’re like, hey, this guy thinks boys and men are awesome, I’m gonna listen to him.

And there’s your problem. You have a very narrow view of what a “real man” is, and it excludes a great many of boys. You are pushing this narrative, and it’s only going to hurt your boys and definitely hurt their future partners (if they get there).

That they don't think that Andrew Tate is a loser? Please explain.

What’s your definition of a “real man”? Why shouldn’t boys be raised as feminists? You’re the one that said this stuff, I’m just commenting on YOUR words.

I'm a different poster. Boys can be raised as feminists, but it's unlikely they will join the same clubs as those that a lot of people looking at Andrew Tate are joining. Most "feminist" men enjoy coed clubs as well and aren't looking for strictly men oriented clubs.

I agree. And those boys, who are surrounded by strong capable women and realize that both sexes can be strong and capable for themselves, are not going to fall into the trap of listening to red pillers claiming women are trying to suppress or subjugate them. Raising boys as feminists is actually the answer.

Boys and men who have respect for women do not turn into incels. Period. Boys and men who think they are victims of women joining scouts will.

Boys need strong capable women but they also need strong capable men, and your failure to realize that is what pushes these boys away. They aren’t women. They can respect women and believe women are strong and capable and smart but they also need to believe men are those things too. And no one is showing them the way.

Again, that is the parents fault. Only. Society already preaches this, you admit, so until children are old enough to apparently turn on a tv and see that the majority of… everything… is men, that’s the parents job.

Someone a few pages back (mom of 4 boys, not sure if they are still posting) said raising boys as feminists is the antithesis to this. I firmly disagree. Raising girls up does not detract from boys - that is the dangerous incel mindset.

Well why is it the parents job to show boys the way, even if society thinks little boys are too loud and too disruptive and need to take Adderall to go to school- but it’s not the parents job to teach girls that they are smart and capable, we need to rely on taking special efforts to single out girls and make the school system cater to how girls learn, to help them succeed? Because right now they’re beating the boys hands down in academics at pretty much every level of education.

“Why is it the parents job to raise their kids”
wtf. No wonder the world is f***ed.