Is joint custody a fait accompli? [MD]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am trying to picture the reaction on DCUM if a father were to say, “I have to pay her spousal support AND child support? Even if I can’t afford it?”

Suffice it to say that it would not be the same as the response OP is getting.

+1
OP, sorry for your situation but you’re a little over the top in painting yourself as a victim here. Very few families can afford a divorce/separation without both parties having to make major lifestyle changes to afford covering two separate households rather than one. As the primary breadwinner yes, you’ll probably be expected to provide child support (and maybe but unlikely alimony to your spouse) but you will still be better off than if the situation was reversed and you were the spouse making much less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He will not get alimony if he is working but he can get child support to help him maintain a home/kids things while in his care.

OP here, but even if I cannot afford it? As in I will literally be ending with a few dimes each month, but I have to pay him?! That means I can’t divorce him. I will have no $ to give for support after I pay rent, utilities, etc. for me and the kids.

There are so many lawyers on DCUM, can one of you opine? Am I stuck with him, if indeed I have to pay support I can’t afford on my own?

What am I going to do, I have worked so damn hard these past few years to get a promotion, to make more money, so I can get out of this. I am seriously crying now, I can’t ever get away! Oh my God my poor kids, what the F*** am I going to do?

This is really dependent on the judge and state. We had family friends in NC who were lower middle class pre-divorce. He lost his job when he became addicted to pain pills and alcohol. He was also physically abusive so she didn't file for divorce until the kids graduated from high school. He got a pro bono attorney in the divorce proceedings. She made too much for free representation but couldn't afford an attorney. He claimed to have been a SAHD and disabled with a back injury, though he spent every day stoned and took zero responsibility for their kids. He got all of their savings and a big alimony award. She got the house and was ordered to pay alimony and his health insurance. A few months later she was laid off from her job. The unemployment check didn't even cover the alimony payment. She tried to have it adjusted, but the person she spoke with at the court told her not to bother because they'd just tell her she had to try to find another job first. She lived off of food from the food pantry for many months, with no luck in her job search. Then her house burnt down. She had stopped paying home insurance a few months back. That same month her unemployment ran out so she stopped paying alimony. She was literally living in a tent on her property when the sheriff stopped by and threatened to put her in jail for non payment of alimony. At this point she managed to get a pro bono attorney and had alimony temporarily stayed, but she spent several months while she waited to get an attorney and a court date terrified that her ex would petition to have her put in jail until she could pay him. She did eventually get another job (that included housing) and he petitioned to have alimony resume. Of course, this whole while he's been working construction despite his "bad back," getting paid under the table and living in an apartment with a new girlfriend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He will not get alimony if he is working but he can get child support to help him maintain a home/kids things while in his care.

Not true. You get alimony if you make less. Works for men as well as women

I make less and I didn’t get alimony. I do get child support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op don't freak out based on what internet strangers are telling you. Try to talk to a lawyer.

You are right to advise her not to freak out but when is it ever in the best interest of DCs to have no relationship with their Father

She’s not saying she wants them to have no relationship, she’s saying she wants no overnights. That’s pretty different.

And reasonable if he is an addict. Addicts are not reliable nor responsible. They are not safe people for kids to be around. Frankly, I think she's even being generous in thinking he should have unsupervised visitation. She may need to get it in writing that he is not allowed to drive them anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op don't freak out based on what internet strangers are telling you. Try to talk to a lawyer.

You are right to advise her not to freak out but when is it ever in the best interest of DCs to have no relationship with their Father

She’s not saying she wants them to have no relationship, she’s saying she wants no overnights. That’s pretty different.

And reasonable if he is an addict. Addicts are not reliable nor responsible. They are not safe people for kids to be around. Frankly, I think she's even being generous in thinking he should have unsupervised visitation. She may need to get it in writing that he is not allowed to drive them anywhere.

May be reasonable but it is unlikely the judge will do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op don't freak out based on what internet strangers are telling you. Try to talk to a lawyer.

You are right to advise her not to freak out but when is it ever in the best interest of DCs to have no relationship with their Father

She’s not saying she wants them to have no relationship, she’s saying she wants no overnights. That’s pretty different.

And reasonable if he is an addict. Addicts are not reliable nor responsible. They are not safe people for kids to be around. Frankly, I think she's even being generous in thinking he should have unsupervised visitation. She may need to get it in writing that he is not allowed to drive them anywhere.

My ex-wife is an addict and got 50 percent custody. All the court cared about was that she hadn't been arrested scoring or selling drugs.

[Anonymous]

I'm speaking on my experience and that of two friends who also divorced abusers.

If you move forward with wanting to limit custody, or the visits being limited/supervised be prepared for a long road. It's doable. You will need a lot of evidence, well organized and a good lawyer, but don't expect them to do all the groundwork. You will need texts, journal entries, written accounts, lists of witnesses, lists of issues etc. and you will likely do all that yourself. I would start compiling relationship history now. Use a detailed calendar. Use various formats, like a highlighted calendar page instead of all just written stories. Make a timeline.

1) Friend one's experience - she decided not to fight for full custody or limit access. He at first wanted full weeks. Gradually over a year this has decreased and now it's four days every month or so. He drinks a lot with kids there and she has this documented and lawyers have attempted to get him to limit it. He is verbally and physically abusive to her. No police involvement other than in his first relationship.

2) Friend two - got her ex to sign an access agreement before he had a lawyer. She had a lawyer who drafted it. He was having an affair so he might have felt guilty. Verbally and emotionally abusive, some physical. He wants to contest it now but that is difficult once its been done, given there haven't been any major changes to circumstances.

3) My situation - currently starting an assessment process where a therapist will write a report with their recommendations. Ex hasn't seen kids in a year. He had supervised access the year before. I'm 2.5 years in. Kids are doing well and I have lots of evidence to support the positive changes in their lives. I have everything documented and ordered and my lawyer is a firm voice and gives strong advice. He wants to see kids but not supervised. He was abusive to me in every way and abusive to kids in many ways. All sorts of protection orders and police involvement.

Things for you to think about:
- get a consult with a lawyer to get initial advice on first steps
- don't worry about the money right now, I think if you can prove you had to leave and got this job to do so, a good lawyer will have no problem limiting what you have to pay him, plus the money and support don't get resolved and ordered instantly
- get a good therapist, you'll need emotional and practical support and someone to help you see and understand the abuse comprehensively
- he might only want the kids limited time, but may want more just to fight you or stay connected to controlling you, to hurt you, etc. and once he gets a lawyer they'll likely argue 50/50 even if he only wants a couple days because that would be in his best interest
- abusers seem to hire vindictive lawyers, but you are still better off with someone firm and fair. It will be a long journey but IME thy eventually did themselves in
- re. police - a judge will want to know why you didn't call the police if it was that bad, so it's good that there are times you have. It helps to have their involvement but in custody matters it's not like they pulled up all past police complaints. More so if you want protective orders.
- be prepared for him to escalate and things to get worse before they settle
- reach out to women's shelters for support group information
- buy things you need now, do things you need to do now (like house projects, passports, etc) so that if/when you start the process you have limited stressors

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm speaking on my experience and that of two friends who also divorced abusers.

If you move forward with wanting to limit custody, or the visits being limited/supervised be prepared for a long road. It's doable. You will need a lot of evidence, well organized and a good lawyer, but don't expect them to do all the groundwork. You will need texts, journal entries, written accounts, lists of witnesses, lists of issues etc. and you will likely do all that yourself. I would start compiling relationship history now. Use a detailed calendar. Use various formats, like a highlighted calendar page instead of all just written stories. Make a timeline.

1) Friend one's experience - she decided not to fight for full custody or limit access. He at first wanted full weeks. Gradually over a year this has decreased and now it's four days every month or so. He drinks a lot with kids there and she has this documented and lawyers have attempted to get him to limit it. He is verbally and physically abusive to her. No police involvement other than in his first relationship.

2) Friend two - got her ex to sign an access agreement before he had a lawyer. She had a lawyer who drafted it. He was having an affair so he might have felt guilty. Verbally and emotionally abusive, some physical. He wants to contest it now but that is difficult once its been done, given there haven't been any major changes to circumstances.

OP here and this is really so helpful, thank you. To those who have questioned my behavior - Why didn’t I call the cops with each incident? A few nights in jail, TPO for a month, attorneys fees alone cost us $4,000. Yes us, bc we are still married, so he can WD from joint accounts all he wants. And the TPO for a month? Blessed peaceful time at home, but me scrambling daily for drop-off AND pickup, no family nearby, making daily excuses why I can’t put in full day at the office while hiding my bruised face under makeup and my hair. Getting him out of the house was harder than I thought it would be, and then, I couldn’t afford to take care of my kids on my own.

Now it seems that though I have fought hard to get a better job, to position me to leave, I may have done myself in. For those who said “You sound like you are dramatizing....if it were a man who couldn’t afford it.” I have been in an abusive marriage with a raging addict for a 14 years. Two months ago, I got a promotion and the extra $ might just be enough. Enough to pay RENT (we’re too poor to buy), daycare, before and after care for 3 kids, food, utilities, health insurance, braces. No 401(k). No 529. No vacations. No kids’ activities. So yeah, I CANNOT afford to pay him child support! We will barely break even each month.

Someone else said well when you divorce, you have to lower lifestyle standards, etc. We are not typical DCUM. We’re barely above water now, together combined HH income $140 or so. Not sure how much more I should be grateful to pare down my lifestyle when we are already just making it.

Yes I am freaking out. I want out of this marriage, I want the stop the daily tirades of yelling and humiliation I have had to endure. I want to go to bed without fearing my husband will clock me over the head, and I have to lie and hide bruises under my hair.

Walk a mile in my shoes, then you can lambast me for being incensed that I have to pay HIM because I can finally afford to break free.

3) My situation - currently starting an assessment process where a therapist will write a report with their recommendations. Ex hasn't seen kids in a year. He had supervised access the year before. I'm 2.5 years in. Kids are doing well and I have lots of evidence to support the positive changes in their lives. I have everything documented and ordered and my lawyer is a firm voice and gives strong advice. He wants to see kids but not supervised. He was abusive to me in every way and abusive to kids in many ways. All sorts of protection orders and police involvement.

Things for you to think about:
- get a consult with a lawyer to get initial advice on first steps
- don't worry about the money right now, I think if you can prove you had to leave and got this job to do so, a good lawyer will have no problem limiting what you have to pay him, plus the money and support don't get resolved and ordered instantly
- get a good therapist, you'll need emotional and practical support and someone to help you see and understand the abuse comprehensively
- he might only want the kids limited time, but may want more just to fight you or stay connected to controlling you, to hurt you, etc. and once he gets a lawyer they'll likely argue 50/50 even if he only wants a couple days because that would be in his best interest
- abusers seem to hire vindictive lawyers, but you are still better off with someone firm and fair. It will be a long journey but IME thy eventually did themselves in
- re. police - a judge will want to know why you didn't call the police if it was that bad, so it's good that there are times you have. It helps to have their involvement but in custody matters it's not like they pulled up all past police complaints. More so if you want protective orders.
- be prepared for him to escalate and things to get worse before they settle
- reach out to women's shelters for support group information
- buy things you need now, do things you need to do now (like house projects, passports, etc) so that if/when you start the process you have limited stressors

[Anonymous]

I'm 15:20 and I really think a therapist is a good idea. There's a lot of 'up' emotion in your responses and all of your thoughts and feelings are 100% valid, and I can't imagine the trauma you've been through, but the jugdes/lawyers/courts won't respond well to the state you're in now.

You need perspective and as shitty as it is to have lived the nightmare of abuse you need to be calm and less reactive. Surviving abuse has made it this way but it won't help in court. It takes a ton of work in therapy but is worth volumes for yourself personally and your situation too. Take care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm 15:20 and I really think a therapist is a good idea. There's a lot of 'up' emotion in your responses and all of your thoughts and feelings are 100% valid, and I can't imagine the trauma you've been through, but the jugdes/lawyers/courts won't respond well to the state you're in now.

You need perspective and as shitty as it is to have lived the nightmare of abuse you need to be calm and less reactive. Surviving abuse has made it this way but it won't help in court. It takes a ton of work in therapy but is worth volumes for yourself personally and your situation too. Take care.

OP here, and thank you for the kind words. I know I need therapy, I WANT it, logistics and $ is my problem. My husband needs to go to AA, as many nights as possible. He has a therapist (finally!) but that’s another night he’s gone. Therapy is $150/.hour + if you can’t get it covered by insurance. And then mommy needs therapy, boom, $15-$20/hour for a babysitter. I don’t disagree, but I’ve been here before. We can’t do it all, so we prioritize the one who needs it most. I have to just make do, which has never done me any favors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 15:20 and I really think a therapist is a good idea. There's a lot of 'up' emotion in your responses and all of your thoughts and feelings are 100% valid, and I can't imagine the trauma you've been through, but the jugdes/lawyers/courts won't respond well to the state you're in now.

You need perspective and as shitty as it is to have lived the nightmare of abuse you need to be calm and less reactive. Surviving abuse has made it this way but it won't help in court. It takes a ton of work in therapy but is worth volumes for yourself personally and your situation too. Take care.

OP here, and thank you for the kind words. I know I need therapy, I WANT it, logistics and $ is my problem. My husband needs to go to AA, as many nights as possible. He has a therapist (finally!) but that’s another night he’s gone. Therapy is $150/.hour + if you can’t get it covered by insurance. And then mommy needs therapy, boom, $15-$20/hour for a babysitter. I don’t disagree, but I’ve been here before. We can’t do it all, so we prioritize the one who needs it most. I have to just make do, which has never done me any favors.

Okay well there may be free resources for victims of domestic violence. Please trust me that it will be worth the time. You need to get through this, but you also need to come out sane. Also you cannot control your husbands recovery. He needs to make his own choices. Being 'supportive' is something I did for a longtime too. But it was expensive for me in more ways than just financially. Your husband has been this way for a long time and it is unlikely he will change. You need to focus on you and what's best for your kids, which is largely you being as emotionally healthy a possible, and let go of what he may or may not need to do. It is extremely unlikely he will change in any significant way, and the back and forth of small positive changes to big backslides is exhausting. Let go. Even if you stay with him awhile longer, let go of any 'plans' for him. Focus on you and what you can do to better your life for yourself. He is an adult. He needs to take care of himself. At this stage you need to focus more on your recovery and building a better future.

[Anonymous]

I go to therapy on the weekends, while my child is with my STBX. Find one that takes your insurance, or see if your employer offers an EAP.

Organize your finances. Do you have cars. What are they worth? Life insurance? Assets? What is your debt? Student loans, car loans, credit cards? Know all these numbers. Better if you can figure out what the financial picture was when your got married too.

Cut your budget to the bone now, so it isn’t a shock later. Throw the extra money into savings. Even if you have to split the savings with your spouse, half is better than zero.

Go through your house, and toss/sell/donate everything you don’t need. Keep an inventory of what is left and what you want to keep—you will need this in the divorce. You may have to move/downsize, so pare everything back now. It makes moving easier.

Can you make more money at a different job? It may be worth it to you to seek new employment. Make sure you are looking at total compensation, so you’re not shorting yourself just for a slightly higher salary.

Document everything. Arguments, abuse, parenting, etc. Everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op don't freak out based on what internet strangers are telling you. Try to talk to a lawyer.

You are right to advise her not to freak out but when is it ever in the best interest of DCs to have no relationship with their Father

She’s not saying she wants them to have no relationship, she’s saying she wants no overnights. That’s pretty different.

And reasonable if he is an addict. Addicts are not reliable nor responsible. They are not safe people for kids to be around. Frankly, I think she's even being generous in thinking he should have unsupervised visitation. She may need to get it in writing that he is not allowed to drive them anywhere.

May be reasonable but it is unlikely the judge will do it.

If he has a history of addiction, it’s very reasonable that a judge require that he pass a certain number of random drug tests to continue with unsupervised visitation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I go to therapy on the weekends, while my child is with my STBX. Find one that takes your insurance, or see if your employer offers an EAP.

Organize your finances. Do you have cars. What are they worth? Life insurance? Assets? What is your debt? Student loans, car loans, credit cards? Know all these numbers. Better if you can figure out what the financial picture was when your got married too.

Cut your budget to the bone now, so it isn’t a shock later. Throw the extra money into savings. Even if you have to split the savings with your spouse, half is better than zero.

Go through your house, and toss/sell/donate everything you don’t need. Keep an inventory of what is left and what you want to keep—you will need this in the divorce. You may have to move/downsize, so pare everything back now. It makes moving easier.

Can you make more money at a different job? It may be worth it to you to seek new employment. Make sure you are looking at total compensation, so you’re not shorting yourself just for a slightly higher salary.

Document everything. Arguments, abuse, parenting, etc. Everything.

Actually it would be much better to deplete the savings paying off debt than to share it with the soon-to-be-ex. If you have student loans definitely pay all of it off with savings. Pay off your cars. Any debt that is in your name gets paid off now. Much better to be debt free than handing over half your savings to your ex.

Also, do you have a relative that you trust? You could give your mom (for example) a gift of several thousand. She can hold it for you and it can be your emergency fund during the divorce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 15:20 and I really think a therapist is a good idea. There's a lot of 'up' emotion in your responses and all of your thoughts and feelings are 100% valid, and I can't imagine the trauma you've been through, but the jugdes/lawyers/courts won't respond well to the state you're in now.

You need perspective and as shitty as it is to have lived the nightmare of abuse you need to be calm and less reactive. Surviving abuse has made it this way but it won't help in court. It takes a ton of work in therapy but is worth volumes for yourself personally and your situation too. Take care.

OP here, and thank you for the kind words. I know I need therapy, I WANT it, logistics and $ is my problem. My husband needs to go to AA, as many nights as possible. He has a therapist (finally!) but that’s another night he’s gone. Therapy is $150/.hour + if you can’t get it covered by insurance. And then mommy needs therapy, boom, $15-$20/hour for a babysitter. I don’t disagree, but I’ve been here before. We can’t do it all, so we prioritize the one who needs it most. I have to just make do, which has never done me any favors.

Can you go to Al-Anon? It's free and for family members of the alcoholic. You may have to try a few groups until you find one that fits you. Try to set up a regular kid swap with another parent if you can't afford babysitter.