Nonstop fighting at Thanksgiving, how do I make it stop?

[Anonymous]

You need to suspend all of your rules for the 3-4 days you are there. Food won't be perfect, things won't be on time, it's ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- you say that you are ashamed of fighting in front of your kids -- why? When people have conflict, they argue. This is normal and appropriate, and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. I think that there is a very weird idea in the US, that arguing is to be avoided or that it is some sort of strange failing. Honestly, I would rather my kids see a respectful, non-violent argument than witness passive aggressiveness or awkward stony silence. Arguing is an indication that something is important to you, that you know how to justify your actions, and that you have enough spine to stand up for yourself. These aren't necessarily bad things to model.

My guess is that OP’s arguments involve loud yelling and that is what she is ashamed of.

I don't know. OP sounds so anxiety ridden - about her parents' home, their time management, her life choices, that I wouldn't be surprised if she interprets an ordinary argument or squabble as a "loud fight". And who cares if there is a bit of yelling? I'm not anglo-American, and vocal and enthusiastic arguing isn't looked down upon in my culture. Volume alone isn't indicative of anything shameful. It's OK for your kids to witness conflict or frustration. OP sounds so nervous, so tightly wound, so controlling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- you say that you are ashamed of fighting in front of your kids -- why? When people have conflict, they argue. This is normal and appropriate, and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. I think that there is a very weird idea in the US, that arguing is to be avoided or that it is some sort of strange failing. Honestly, I would rather my kids see a respectful, non-violent argument than witness passive aggressiveness or awkward stony silence. Arguing is an indication that something is important to you, that you know how to justify your actions, and that you have enough spine to stand up for yourself. These aren't necessarily bad things to model.

My guess is that OP’s arguments involve loud yelling and that is what she is ashamed of.

I don't know. OP sounds so anxiety ridden - about her parents' home, their time management, her life choices, that I wouldn't be surprised if she interprets an ordinary argument or squabble as a "loud fight". And who cares if there is a bit of yelling? I'm not anglo-American, and vocal and enthusiastic arguing isn't looked down upon in my culture. Volume alone isn't indicative of anything shameful. It's OK for your kids to witness conflict or frustration. OP sounds so nervous, so tightly wound, so controlling.

OP. No, this isn't the kind of fair fighting my kids see at home between my husband and me. It's screaming, calling each other horrible names, totally losing control, tears. For the most part, the worst stuff isn't from me (I don't curse or call anyone names or get hysterical), But I do lose my cool and shout at them instead of staying calm and polite as I should.

Besides this, all the other comments make sense to me. I appreciate everyone's very helpful advice on this thread!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- you say that you are ashamed of fighting in front of your kids -- why? When people have conflict, they argue. This is normal and appropriate, and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. I think that there is a very weird idea in the US, that arguing is to be avoided or that it is some sort of strange failing. Honestly, I would rather my kids see a respectful, non-violent argument than witness passive aggressiveness or awkward stony silence. Arguing is an indication that something is important to you, that you know how to justify your actions, and that you have enough spine to stand up for yourself. These aren't necessarily bad things to model.

My guess is that OP’s arguments involve loud yelling and that is what she is ashamed of.

I don't know. OP sounds so anxiety ridden - about her parents' home, their time management, her life choices, that I wouldn't be surprised if she interprets an ordinary argument or squabble as a "loud fight". And who cares if there is a bit of yelling? I'm not anglo-American, and vocal and enthusiastic arguing isn't looked down upon in my culture. Volume alone isn't indicative of anything shameful. It's OK for your kids to witness conflict or frustration. OP sounds so nervous, so tightly wound, so controlling.

OP. No, this isn't the kind of fair fighting my kids see at home between my husband and me. It's screaming, calling each other horrible names, totally losing control, tears. For the most part, the worst stuff isn't from me (I don't curse or call anyone names or get hysterical), But I do lose my cool and shout at them instead of staying calm and polite as I should.

Besides this, all the other comments make sense to me. I appreciate everyone's very helpful advice on this thread!!

OP, why do you say your parents love you so much when they are willing to call you terrible names when you don’t see things their way? I’m sorry this sounds hurtful. I’m assuming your husband has witnessed this. What does he say?

[Anonymous]

Op, I suggest you look up the “drama triangle” and how to exit it. In the triangle, there is the victim, rescuer and so on. We can easily rotate among them without realizing it and others can shift position as we shift position. Once I learned about this triangle, I was able to step out of the dynamic and remove myself from the drama or prevent such drama in the first place.

[Anonymous]

One thing to consider, OP:
You have seen how your parents treat people who don’t toe the line. That is how they will treat your children when your children are old enough to push back on things. I would back off from this relationship by a lot.

I know you said you can’t do a short visit because of distance, but make it a smaller part of a larger trip. Go visit your family for a day or two, then spend a few days at the nearest big city or national park. Or go but stay at a resort with lots of activities (I’m thinking Great Wolf Lodge sort of place) and tell them you’ll be over for dinner after a day of swimming or whatever, so you are there for 4 days but only for dinner.

Don’t visit more than twice a year, and space those out (like Thanksgiving and Easter for example).

When you go, assume that the house will be messy, everyone will be later than planned for everything (if reservations are involved, lie about the time), all that you need to let go. BUT, you don’t have to let go of them putting you down. If they are rude, say, “That was rude. If you are going to speak to me that way we will leave.” Then follow through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I, too, have hoarding, overbearing, immigrant parents who have been saying they cannot change for as long as I can remember. So I hear you.

But it strikes me that your post is filled with trivial (i.e., why are you getting so upset about being "late" when you are in their town on their schedule) and the really serious.

This is buried in your post, but of course it is the lede: "To a stranger, it might look like their comments are no big deal, but to me, they hit at the core of never fitting in or being respected, of having crippling low self-esteem because I was never good enough, always getting advice for how to do everything better. So I lose my cool and lash out, and they yell at me, and then we are fighting in front of the kids."

You are an adult now, and you need to understand that their comments to you are really about them. Like you have internalized their advice giving as being about your perceived incompetence but it's likely about their anxiety and desire to control

Posters here always have good suggestions on types of counseling but the last kind you did does not seem like it was sufficient for where you are today. I'd suggest reading Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.

THIS. It's so true.

I have family issues, too - not like yours, but every family has issues. And I was talking to a therapist once and we were talking about my brother, who is a bit anal and has everything very very organized and is very regimented. The therapist said to me, but he's also impacted by your family, just differently than you. His response is to go in the opposite direction, being neat and overly organized. It's anxiety manifested in the opposite direction.

You, OP, are kinda like my brother. It's your response to their dysfunction that defines you. You must be opposite them.

I know it is not easy, but you need to learn to drop the rope. Gray rock. Not let it bother you. You are visiting them, and then you are going home to haven you have made. Their comments do not matter, and they should roll off you. Mmm-hmmm should be one of the only things you allow yourself to say. Remember - you cannot change them. You can only change how you respond. I agree with others that perhaps some more therapy and a little more distance would do you good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One thing to consider, OP:
You have seen how your parents treat people who don’t toe the line. That is how they will treat your children when your children are old enough to push back on things. I would back off from this relationship by a lot.

I know you said you can’t do a short visit because of distance, but make it a smaller part of a larger trip. Go visit your family for a day or two, then spend a few days at the nearest big city or national park. Or go but stay at a resort with lots of activities (I’m thinking Great Wolf Lodge sort of place) and tell them you’ll be over for dinner after a day of swimming or whatever, so you are there for 4 days but only for dinner.

Don’t visit more than twice a year, and space those out (like Thanksgiving and Easter for example).

When you go, assume that the house will be messy, everyone will be later than planned for everything (if reservations are involved, lie about the time), all that you need to let go. BUT, you don’t have to let go of them putting you down. If they are rude, say, “That was rude. If you are going to speak to me that way we will leave.” Then follow through.

OP, I wrote earlier about going back to therapy (among other things), and I have been thinking about you. The poster above brings up an important point. More than your children pushing back on their grandparents, your children will push back on you. And you may very well have a tough time with this (come join us in the tween/teen topic to see what I mean). Right now you are not in a position to handle your own reaction to your kids when they push back. You cannot put the basics in perspective with your parents. It may seem like the teen years are far away but it's better to address these issues now rather than when you are in the thick of it. (Dealing with my parents while I have moody teens makes dealing with either set much harder).

[Anonymous]

Stop visiting at the holidays so that the stakes are lower. Plan weekend trips other times to see them. And realize that this things are going to happen and be your most flexible self. I think that's always easier to do outside the holidays.

[Anonymous]

Lots of good advice on here about relaxing and having backup food so you are not hangry waiting on them to get their act together.

But I differ from the crowd in that I think their lack of time management is extremely disrespectful, especially if you have reservations or show times somewhere. For that part, you place boundaries: we are leaving at this time. If you are not ready, we are going on ahead. Period. (lying to them on times is good too, but the boundary is the final answer).

[Anonymous]

Hi I've responded earlier but I Was just scrolling through instagram and saw a post that made me think of this thread. It was:

There is nothing in this Universe that has the power to harm you more than your own unconscious, negative thoughts & beliefs. Don't attach, observe. Stay in your power.
- Briarly collyns @moonomens

A little cheesy, but the "Don't attach, observe" would be a good mantra for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are a guest in their home, you’re accepting who and how they are. If you can’t accept that, you need to either stay in a hotel, or host yourself so that you are on your own turf.

If you choose to visit their chaotic environment, just be prepared for KNOWN factors. Have a stash of your own food, have things to keep your kids entertained—so that when dinner is late or incomplete, you are at least fed and occupied.

Mess, so what. It’s not your mess, it’s a few days. Go out as much as you can, even if you have to make up errands like needing a pharmacy item. Why make a cup of tea in their house when you can go buy a magazine, get a Starbucks and enjoy 20 minutes of peace in the parking lot?

If they ask rude questions, say you’re not discussing that with them. If they make a rude comment, say “That’s not polite” and then move on. You don’t have to take it, but don’t try to change them or go deep about it. Just refuse to engage and keep it moving.

Um, no. Parents are rude with the judgment and intrusive questions. I'd just ignore those and not answer. Steer to other topics. And tell them they are being rude. Then shorten the visits.

You say they're wonderful grandparents. And maybe they are now. But that sort of thing will eventually spill over to your kids.

[Anonymous]

All I got from this is that you start up argument with your parents for no reason. You are the problem here. None that they do is a big deal, you sound like a control freak and, quite frankly, as if you nave narcissistic tendencies.
Why else would you be seeking arguments for some cold food and lost keys?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are a guest in their home, you’re accepting who and how they are. If you can’t accept that, you need to either stay in a hotel, or host yourself so that you are on your own turf.

If you choose to visit their chaotic environment, just be prepared for KNOWN factors. Have a stash of your own food, have things to keep your kids entertained—so that when dinner is late or incomplete, you are at least fed and occupied.

Mess, so what. It’s not your mess, it’s a few days. Go out as much as you can, even if you have to make up errands like needing a pharmacy item. Why make a cup of tea in their house when you can go buy a magazine, get a Starbucks and enjoy 20 minutes of peace in the parking lot?

If they ask rude questions, say you’re not discussing that with them. If they make a rude comment, say “That’s not polite” and then move on. You don’t have to take it, but don’t try to change them or go deep about it. Just refuse to engage and keep it moving.

Um, no. Parents are rude with the judgment and intrusive questions. I'd just ignore those and not answer. Steer to other topics. And tell them they are being rude. Then shorten the visits.

You say they're wonderful grandparents. And maybe they are now. But that sort of thing will eventually spill over to your kids.

This is true! I think being a guest means you have to accept your host's foibles (mess, chaos, etc) but the intrusive questions and unsolicited advice are rude and you definitely don't have to answer said questions and more than that you want to model how to not answer said questions (ideally without a fight!) for your kids so the long term relationship between grandparents and grandchildren can continue to be good. Grey rock is good, seeing if you can redirect back to the parents is good ("Your teeth are worse; what are you doing about them?" "What's wrong with my teeth? Have you been having dental issues? What helped yours?"), just ignoring and redirecting is good. I get that the feeling of being the odd one out/the one who doesn't fit is really hard -- do you have close friends/other family who you can text to blow off steam or talk to about things that matter to you while you're there?

I will say, I think the other thing that it might help if you can let go of that your life is "better" than theirs. Your post has a lot of digs at them -- not liking how they cook/schedule/live and implying that no one should like that; saying that they have "zero interest in volunteering or making a difference in the world" as if their corporate jobs or SAH parenting less than your startup or volunteer work. I get that this is probably in reaction to them tell you that your choices make you a bad parent but do consider that you're saying the same to them. Naturally this will result in explosions. You can own and enjoy your choices without putting people who make different ones down. (And yes, they should ALSO be doing this work but it sounds like they're probably not going to because they unlike you don't actually think that adults having loud screaming fights is actually a problem.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One thing to consider, OP:
You have seen how your parents treat people who don’t toe the line. That is how they will treat your children when your children are old enough to push back on things. I would back off from this relationship by a lot.

I know you said you can’t do a short visit because of distance, but make it a smaller part of a larger trip. Go visit your family for a day or two, then spend a few days at the nearest big city or national park. Or go but stay at a resort with lots of activities (I’m thinking Great Wolf Lodge sort of place) and tell them you’ll be over for dinner after a day of swimming or whatever, so you are there for 4 days but only for dinner.

Don’t visit more than twice a year, and space those out (like Thanksgiving and Easter for example).

When you go, assume that the house will be messy, everyone will be later than planned for everything (if reservations are involved, lie about the time), all that you need to let go. BUT, you don’t have to let go of them putting you down. If they are rude, say, “That was rude. If you are going to speak to me that way we will leave.” Then follow through.

OP, I wrote earlier about going back to therapy (among other things), and I have been thinking about you. The poster above brings up an important point. More than your children pushing back on their grandparents, your children will push back on you. And you may very well have a tough time with this (come join us in the tween/teen topic to see what I mean). Right now you are not in a position to handle your own reaction to your kids when they push back. You cannot put the basics in perspective with your parents. It may seem like the teen years are far away but it's better to address these issues now rather than when you are in the thick of it. (Dealing with my parents while I have moody teens makes dealing with either set much harder).

OP here. I agree about this. When my dad was ranting at me, totally out of control, I was thinking that I never want to do this to my kids. And they are definitely starting to get some attitude and I really struggle to deal with it well.

About my parents treating my girls the way they treated me, I have always been very clear that it would be unacceptable. So far they've bitten their tongue and have not replicated the judgments or criticism i grew up with. My mom was basically a teenager when they had me (married young) and she was just copying what her own mom did, now she is older and wiser and kind of gets it. But I guess with me there is too much history, too many triggers, and she can't change her behavior towards me.

My siblings, who aren't so nice to me, are incredible to my kids. My kids adore them. I keep a close eye on how my girls are treated and there have been zero issues, not even minor ones.

I have started the search for a therapist again, so far just getting rejections from everyone I contact (not taking patients), but will keep trying.