Nonstop fighting at Thanksgiving, how do I make it stop?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can stop trying to change or control them.
Just don't argue with them. Embrace the chaos.

Food will be cold or burnt. You will be late.

It doesn't matter. Repeat this in your mind.

Wine may help.

Make visits shorter.
Fly in and out

All of this.

Plus have enough confidence in yourself to not care what others think of your life. Once you do, you'll find that others don't feel empowered to comment on your choices.

[Anonymous]

Either they come visit you or you stay in a hotel when you visit them. I also suggest trying to grey rock mom's intrusive questions.

[Anonymous]

Valium or Xanax

Try setting it up so it’s just your parents and kids hanging out together. Like you drop them off with your parents or at an activity while you and DH go back to your hotel and chill.

[Anonymous]

Take the stuff and drop it at Goodwill on the way home.

[Anonymous]

We started saying in a nearby AirBnB when we visit my hoarder, difficult ILs. It has made these visits so much more enjoyable and created some easy boundaries to revert to. Having our own space means that we can make food for our kids when meals with the ILs are inevitably late and not child-appropriate. It also means that we can retreat there at the end of the night for some time away from them. In the morning, sometimes we head over to their house early but sometimes we take our time or go in shifts, with my DH taking the kids over early while I shower and and get some work done, then I join later and DH takes a break at our house.

Initially there as a lot of resistance to us doing this but we were able to put our foot down when our kids were big enough that we could express frustration that the room they are supposed to sleep in at the ILs is full of stacks of boxes and random items they might get into. There isn't even a bed in that room, just a little space cleared in the middle for sleeping bags on the floor. We used it a couple times when DD was young enough to sleep in a pack and play and we could place it far enough from any items to pose a danger, but once she outgrew that we announced that we'd stay somewhere else until that room was made safe. It never happened. MIL will still sometimes express sadness that we don't stay with her, but then will say she can't seem to organize that room so oh well.

Once MIL asked if I might be able to help sort out that room and I said I'd be happy to but, full warning, the answer to that room is to take about 80% of it to goodwill because it's just a lot of old junk (I did not use the word junk) that no one uses anymore. MIL refuses to get rid of things and thinks the answer is just more shelving units and more boxes. They have magazine issues going back 20 years in their house. Anyway, she turned down my offered help and there has been little pushback to us staying elsewhere since then. Sometimes they even give us money towards our AirBnB, I guess out of guilt, though we don't ask for it.

[Anonymous]

OP, I, too, have hoarding, overbearing, immigrant parents who have been saying they cannot change for as long as I can remember. So I hear you.

But it strikes me that your post is filled with trivial (i.e., why are you getting so upset about being "late" when you are in their town on their schedule) and the really serious.

This is buried in your post, but of course it is the lede: "To a stranger, it might look like their comments are no big deal, but to me, they hit at the core of never fitting in or being respected, of having crippling low self-esteem because I was never good enough, always getting advice for how to do everything better. So I lose my cool and lash out, and they yell at me, and then we are fighting in front of the kids."

You are an adult now, and you need to understand that their comments to you are really about them. Like you have internalized their advice giving as being about your perceived incompetence but it's likely about their anxiety and desire to control

Posters here always have good suggestions on types of counseling but the last kind you did does not seem like it was sufficient for where you are today. I'd suggest reading Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.

[Anonymous]

Crush the Turtle wants me to tell you (in his slow, slow voice): chill, the problem might be you, not them. I'm sure they get along just fine when you aren't there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We started saying in a nearby AirBnB when we visit my hoarder, difficult ILs. It has made these visits so much more enjoyable and created some easy boundaries to revert to. Having our own space means that we can make food for our kids when meals with the ILs are inevitably late and not child-appropriate. It also means that we can retreat there at the end of the night for some time away from them. In the morning, sometimes we head over to their house early but sometimes we take our time or go in shifts, with my DH taking the kids over early while I shower and and get some work done, then I join later and DH takes a break at our house.

Initially there as a lot of resistance to us doing this but we were able to put our foot down when our kids were big enough that we could express frustration that the room they are supposed to sleep in at the ILs is full of stacks of boxes and random items they might get into. There isn't even a bed in that room, just a little space cleared in the middle for sleeping bags on the floor. We used it a couple times when DD was young enough to sleep in a pack and play and we could place it far enough from any items to pose a danger, but once she outgrew that we announced that we'd stay somewhere else until that room was made safe. It never happened. MIL will still sometimes express sadness that we don't stay with her, but then will say she can't seem to organize that room so oh well.

Once MIL asked if I might be able to help sort out that room and I said I'd be happy to but, full warning, the answer to that room is to take about 80% of it to goodwill because it's just a lot of old junk (I did not use the word junk) that no one uses anymore. MIL refuses to get rid of things and thinks the answer is just more shelving units and more boxes. They have magazine issues going back 20 years in their house. Anyway, she turned down my offered help and there has been little pushback to us staying elsewhere since then. Sometimes they even give us money towards our AirBnB, I guess out of guilt, though we don't ask for it.

Yes, although I am closer to OP's parents style than hers, visits to my in-laws was also stressful. I also found that renting an airBnB nearby was the perfect solution. I was able to take care of my family the way I needed to without trying to change the in-laws and the way they do things. I was able to stop the airBnB with foods that we liked and to feed our family on our schedule instead of trying to change our family's eating times and making the kids eat foods they didn't like. It meant that when we needed the kids to go to bed, we didn't have to spend an hour shushing the family that was being loud and enjoying their family stay so that the kids could actually fall asleep. When the kids needed to sleep, we bundled them in the car and went back to the airBnb and they got their own bedroom in a quiet house. The adults in the family stayed and had a grand time. The only criticism was that we should have put the kids to bed and come back (leaving minors sleeping in a house by themselves while we went and partied ?!?!?!?) because we missed "all the fun". But we were quite happy to put the kids to bed and wind down with our own streamed TV series just like we do at home.

I also make sure that I always have a rental car when visiting. My MIL was always hurt. She wanted to drive to pick us up and the airport and drive us to stay at her house. She always said that we could borrow her car for anything we need, but the guilt trips about when we wanted to do something that was different than her schedule, her style, her control were not worth it. When I needed a break, I could make up an excuse and run off to run my errand and get a break from them. If the kids needed to eat, but they were not ready to serve food and we were told to just make the kids wait, then I'd go run and errand and take the kids with me and get them something to eat before we had a low sugar meltdown. The number of times that I needed to make a quick trip to the grocery store or Starbucks to pick up a hot tea or run to the drug store because we were out of something, was a lifesaver. So, our entire family (including my wife, who is rather different from the rest of her family) always appreciated having our own rental place and our own rental car available.

These two things have made the world of difference in our enjoyment of family visits and also keeping us from fighting nearly as much. When I need a break, I take a break. When the kids need something, we leave and get it. We no longer fight about things and we do things our way and the in-laws do things their way, in their house. It took a few years for the side comments and criticism of how we do things to stop, but eventually they realized that the side comments made little impact on us (we didn't really care if they didn't like the way we did things, we just politely excused ourselves and did what we needed for our family) and they stopped.

[Anonymous]

OP, I mean this kindly, but you need more therapy. Not to understand yourself or your parents, but to learn to set boundaries. You have a lot more power in this situation than you realize.

You don’t need to spend every holiday with them. It’s perfectly fine and normal to spend some holidays with you in-laws or your spouse and kids.

You don’t need to spend 3/4 days there. You really don’t. The distance is not relevant.

You can rent a car and an Airbnb.

You don’t need to be on a schedule at all. Don’t make restaurant reservations. Go to walk-in restaurants or get takeout. Host them at your Airbnb if you can’t take their clutter. If you must do some kind of activity that you need to be on time, then say, “we’re leaving at 6:00 and driving ourselves. We’ll meet you there.”

Don’t engage when they make triggering comments. “Mmmhmmm” is a full sentence. Don’t. Engage. You know it won’t end well. Nod and leave the room.

Visit once a year. Call them once a week on FaceTime and put the kids on. When they get out of line say, “we have to be at XYZ, talk to you next week!” and end the call.

Seriously OP, you can do this. A professional can help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I mean this kindly, but you need more therapy. Not to understand yourself or your parents, but to learn to set boundaries. You have a lot more power in this situation than you realize.

You don’t need to spend every holiday with them. It’s perfectly fine and normal to spend some holidays with you in-laws or your spouse and kids.

You don’t need to spend 3/4 days there. You really don’t. The distance is not relevant.

You can rent a car and an Airbnb.

You don’t need to be on a schedule at all. Don’t make restaurant reservations. Go to walk-in restaurants or get takeout. Host them at your Airbnb if you can’t take their clutter. If you must do some kind of activity that you need to be on time, then say, “we’re leaving at 6:00 and driving ourselves. We’ll meet you there.”

Don’t engage when they make triggering comments. “Mmmhmmm” is a full sentence. Don’t. Engage. You know it won’t end well. Nod and leave the room.

Visit once a year. Call them once a week on FaceTime and put the kids on. When they get out of line say, “we have to be at XYZ, talk to you next week!” and end the call.

Seriously OP, you can do this. A professional can help.

This is a great point. I had forgotten that the year that my brother was diagnosed with cancer and started undergoing chemo, he was not up to hosting. My brother is the host in their family and has the big house. We used to go and stay at his house, he did tons of cooking and entertaining. He was not up to it, but we wanted to visit to be close. My sister, who lives in my brother's old condo had no space to host (small 2 BR condo). Plus, my sister can't cook. I rented an airBnb near his house. I brought my parents and kids and we stayed at the airBnB. We told him where we were and we invited him to come and visit when he was up to it. My mother and I did the cooking for the week and my brother and sister came and went as they had time available but one or both of them was there every day. It was great because it put no stress on my brother, and he was able to come and go to visit the family and my mother and I essentially hosted near them.

It was one of the best holidays we've had as a family. I remember being very pleased that the large kitchen with huge island was well enough stocked with cooking utensils, dishes, etc that we could host Christmas Eve dinner there (I was worried that I was going to need to go and buy a bunch of stuff for serving and hosting, but was pleasantly surprised that we only need a few things which we donated to the host's kitchen).

So, if you select well, you can easily host near family from the airBnB and not have to deal with the clutter and mess.

[Anonymous]

OP -- you say that you are ashamed of fighting in front of your kids -- why? When people have conflict, they argue. This is normal and appropriate, and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. I think that there is a very weird idea in the US, that arguing is to be avoided or that it is some sort of strange failing. Honestly, I would rather my kids see a respectful, non-violent argument than witness passive aggressiveness or awkward stony silence. Arguing is an indication that something is important to you, that you know how to justify your actions, and that you have enough spine to stand up for yourself. These aren't necessarily bad things to model.

[Anonymous]

Your parents sound delightful. You, not so much.

[Anonymous]

I say this with love, and also needing to take my own advice, but you need to drop your end of the rope. Who cares about the food. Who cares about the clutter. Who cares that you’re late. The emotional stuff is so deep that do yourself a favor and let the logistics and the day-to-day Chinese water torture of this just completely go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP -- you say that you are ashamed of fighting in front of your kids -- why? When people have conflict, they argue. This is normal and appropriate, and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. I think that there is a very weird idea in the US, that arguing is to be avoided or that it is some sort of strange failing. Honestly, I would rather my kids see a respectful, non-violent argument than witness passive aggressiveness or awkward stony silence. Arguing is an indication that something is important to you, that you know how to justify your actions, and that you have enough spine to stand up for yourself. These aren't necessarily bad things to model.

My guess is that OP’s arguments involve loud yelling and that is what she is ashamed of.

[Anonymous]

You need to spend less time with them and thank your lucky stars you have a better life at home.

BTW, they clearly have ADHD. My husband and son are like this and the house looks like a bomb went off. It stresses me out because I live here!!! But I can’t always be the maid. My husband hoards, too. Sigh.