Did Ellen Greenberg’s fiancé kill her?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ruled a suicide again. I don't see how that is remotely possible.

https://people.com/ellen-greenberg-death-ruled-suicide-again-11828915

This case is bizarre. I don’t trust the medical examiner’s office. I’m so sad for her family. They’ve fought so hard for so long, and all they’re asking for is for her death to be investigated, which it absolutely should be. The system has failed Ellen repeatedly — at someone’s direction.

How has it failed her? How many times do you think taxpayer money should go towards it being investigated only to come to the same resolution? And before you say “there should be an independent investigation”, you don’t think that will be biased? Sometimes, weird things actually happen.

The Medical Examiner’s Office has reviewed their findings. That’s the only “investigation” so far. Her death has not been investigated as a homicide because it’s been ruled a suicide. Multiple privately hired expert medical examiners disagree with the local ME’s findings. Common sense tells us that suicide sounds far fetched, and we know her fiancé engaged in highly suspicious behavior the day of and first couple days after her death. Her family wants homicide detectives to investigate the her death, which they have not done.

You can hire experts to say anything. And I disagree that her fiancé acted suspiciously.

He lied about being accompanied when he found her body, for one. And what possessed him to break down the door?

I read the Me report which contains pieces of original police reports and the fiancés statement that night. He didn’t lie. Someone - they don’t know who- stated that the security guard was with him when he broke down the door, but there’s no evidence it was the fiancé ‘lying’. Likely just confusion. He did break down the door, after the cameras and witnesses tracked him coming from the gym, knocking on the door, calling her, engaging the security guard to help him etc (the sec guard didn’t bc as he said ‘he couldn’t leave his post’). He immediately talked to the police, was seen crying hysterically in the hallway, he went to the station voluntarily etc
There’s nothing suspicious about his behavior, other than people wanting to pick apart his 911 call as if there is some universal standard for how people are supposed to react in the face of a tragedy. There was no history of DA and in fact her parents immediately supported this when asked by the police that evening. The door was locked from the inside, there was no evidence of any other access, no disturbance, no defensive marks on her, no marks on him, none of his DNA on the knife.

I feel bad for everyone here. The parents clearly can’t accept their daughter was mentally ill and killed herself ; apparently there was a history of her having mental health issues, and her parents were not particularly supportive of her taking medication. They probably feel subconsciously guilty. But it’s time for them to let it go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

^ leave him I mean. She was mentally ill not a DA victim

Bruises all over her body on various stages of healing. Told her parents she wanted to move home. You don’t know the facts of the case.

You are histrionic.

She had a few bruises on her body. Right now I have a few bruises on my body. I’m not a victim of DA. She was an elementary school teacher. There was no indication there were DA bruises. Do you really think you know more than the medical examiners?

She was struggling and overwhelmed working and couldn’t handle life. She wasn’t moving home to get away from her fiancé.

I appreciate it’s more exciting to think it was some big coverup, but unfortunately this was just a sad case of a woman with mental health issues having a psychotic breakdown

It’s humorous how wrong you are. Based on the autopsy, the ME originally determined it was a homicide. He changed it after a closed door meeting with various law enforcement. Look, in the realm of anything being possible, could she have killed herself, sure? But look at her manner of death. You really want people to buy that she managed to stab herself in the back of the head and neck 20 times? Some of those after severing her spinal cord? Her injuries here are what point to murder.

Dramatic much? A closed door meeting? Yes, meetings are often with doors closed.

Only her parents *paid* experts said that she was incapacitated. The independent ME did not. She had no defensive wounds. Her fiancé stabbed her to death and she just laid there? Really? And he stabbed her 29 times and somehow managed not to get any blood on him or his DNA on the knife? And he did this in an apartment locked from the inside, with neighbors across the hall who heard nothing, and he also was able to somehow escape from the y after murdering her, and not be picked up by building cameras or disturb the snow on their balcony etc. But then building cameras picked him up coming from the gym and on the elevator? Got it.

I think there are a lot of people who project their own experiences on things like this- ‘I was once a victim of DA, so it must be DA!’ - and also it’s just more exciting to think it’s a huge powerful conspiracy.

It’s a sad weird case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

^ leave him I mean. She was mentally ill not a DA victim

Bruises all over her body on various stages of healing. Told her parents she wanted to move home. You don’t know the facts of the case.

You are histrionic.

She had a few bruises on her body. Right now I have a few bruises on my body. I’m not a victim of DA. She was an elementary school teacher. There was no indication there were DA bruises. Do you really think you know more than the medical examiners?

She was struggling and overwhelmed working and couldn’t handle life. She wasn’t moving home to get away from her fiancé.

I appreciate it’s more exciting to think it was some big coverup, but unfortunately this was just a sad case of a woman with mental health issues having a psychotic breakdown

She had over 30 bruises, not a few. Why comment if you don’t know the facts of the case? This isn’t exciting. You’re disgusting for even saying that. This poor woman needs justice. Look at her injuries. Occam’s Razor will tell you she didn’t take her own life. Maybe her fiance didn’t kill her, but someone did.

You should go back to reddit with the conspiracy obsession. Multiple trained investigators, including two ME, found that she committed suicide. Her parents sued everyone and got their due process- another investigation. And still… suicide. How much poor tax payer money has to be spent bc they can’t accept reality?

Btw I don’t think you know what Occam’s razor means. She was depressed and anxious, she was alone, (footage and text messages etc support that she was alone, the door was locked from the inside), she had hesitation wounds and no defensive wounds, two ME and investigations found it was suicide. … That would imply it was a suicide.

So the ME originally found it was a homicide, based on her injuries. It was later changed to suicide with no full explanation, but reference to some things that turned out to be false (e.g., her fiancé was accompanied back to the door with someone when he supposedly broke it down). Why would unfounded things like this change the finding of an autopsy? Additionally, we only have the fiancé’s word for so much of this, including that she was alive when he went to the gym, that he had to break the door down, etc. Why are people so willing to instantly believe him? What’s a simpler explanation, that she killed herself in an exceedingly rare and essentially physically impossible way or that she was murdered? I think it’s you that doesn’t understand Occam’s Razor.

No, it was originally suicide on the day it happened. Then changed to homicide. Then investigated and found to be suicide.

And then investigated again. Again suicide.

The cameras and texts support his timeline. She was depressed and on new meds and acting crazy as reported by multiple people. Unfortunately people commit suicide.

Have you read the 32 page ME report? A professional whose job this is found it to be suicide. But they’re wrong and you’re right?

There were no cameras in their actual apartment. And she didn’t send a text after the time her fiance left. We have no idea if she was alive when he left. The only thing that supports his timeline is his word. I agree with the PP, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Seems like you don’t have your facts straight. Cameras showed him downstairs in the gym, getting in and out of the elevator etc.

He then broke the door down bc it was locked from the inside.

He called 911 right afterwards.

How was the door locked from the inside? Please explain this

He claims he broke the door down. That’s not on video and no one was with him when he did. He called several of his family members before he called 911. Please stop commenting when you don’t have any idea what you’re talking about.

Well the door was broken down, and the latch broken from the outside. He did this after discussing with the security guard and other building staff who recommended he do this bc he couldn’t get in. There was no other way to get in, and the evidence showed there had been no other access, the balcony was undisturbed etc.

He didn’t call his family before he called 911. I think that’s wrong but if it’s not. Link please

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ruled a suicide again. I don't see how that is remotely possible.

https://people.com/ellen-greenberg-death-ruled-suicide-again-11828915

This case is bizarre. I don’t trust the medical examiner’s office. I’m so sad for her family. They’ve fought so hard for so long, and all they’re asking for is for her death to be investigated, which it absolutely should be. The system has failed Ellen repeatedly — at someone’s direction.

How has it failed her? How many times do you think taxpayer money should go towards it being investigated only to come to the same resolution? And before you say “there should be an independent investigation”, you don’t think that will be biased? Sometimes, weird things actually happen.

The Medical Examiner’s Office has reviewed their findings. That’s the only “investigation” so far. Her death has not been investigated as a homicide because it’s been ruled a suicide. Multiple privately hired expert medical examiners disagree with the local ME’s findings. Common sense tells us that suicide sounds far fetched, and we know her fiancé engaged in highly suspicious behavior the day of and first couple days after her death. Her family wants homicide detectives to investigate the her death, which they have not done.

You can hire experts to say anything. And I disagree that her fiancé acted suspiciously.

He lied about being accompanied when he found her body, for one. And what possessed him to break down the door?

I read the Me report which contains pieces of original police reports and the fiancés statement that night. He didn’t lie. Someone - they don’t know who- stated that the security guard was with him when he broke down the door, but there’s no evidence it was the fiancé ‘lying’. Likely just confusion. He did break down the door, after the cameras and witnesses tracked him coming from the gym, knocking on the door, calling her, engaging the security guard to help him etc (the sec guard didn’t bc as he said ‘he couldn’t leave his post’). He immediately talked to the police, was seen crying hysterically in the hallway, he went to the station voluntarily etc
There’s nothing suspicious about his behavior, other than people wanting to pick apart his 911 call as if there is some universal standard for how people are supposed to react in the face of a tragedy. There was no history of DA and in fact her parents immediately supported this when asked by the police that evening. The door was locked from the inside, there was no evidence of any other access, no disturbance, no defensive marks on her, no marks on him, none of his DNA on the knife.

I feel bad for everyone here. The parents clearly can’t accept their daughter was mentally ill and killed herself ; apparently there was a history of her having mental health issues, and her parents were not particularly supportive of her taking medication. They probably feel subconsciously guilty. But it’s time for them to let it go.

Thank you. This is a rational and factual review. Agree that the parents are unable to accept reality. They obviously feel extreme guilt. Ellen desperately wanted to quit her job, she could not cope. It sounds irrational, but I have also endured extreme work stress and irrational anxiety caused by a job I hated so on some level I empathize with Ellen.

[Anonymous]

I just don’t see how it’s remotely plausible that she inflicted those injuries on herself, nor why she was stressing over grading after filling her tank and washing fruit and dishes and then stabbed herself repeatedly. It doesn’t make sense, and her fiancé’s tone in the 911 call doesn’t make sense. This is not mysterious. He killed her. I’m so sorry for Ellen and her parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

^ leave him I mean. She was mentally ill not a DA victim

Bruises all over her body on various stages of healing. Told her parents she wanted to move home. You don’t know the facts of the case.

I probably have 30 bruises on my body in various stages of healing. I’m very active and a little clumsy, I’m not a DA victim.

You’re a lunatic for thinking that is somehow relevant to this and you are FAR from normal. I’m a pale, thinnish woman who is known to be clumsy and I’ve never had so many bruises. But then neither do you.

[Anonymous]

The fiancé married a hatchet faced richish woman. I would bet his FIL has reputation defender companies trying to protect his little girl’s fat, lying, murdering husband online. No one believes this story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Poor girl killed herself. And poor finance had had to live with this hanging over him for almost 15 years

It’s weird how that stress didn’t lead to weight loss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

^ leave him I mean. She was mentally ill not a DA victim

Bruises all over her body on various stages of healing. Told her parents she wanted to move home. You don’t know the facts of the case.

I probably have 30 bruises on my body in various stages of healing. I’m very active and a little clumsy, I’m not a DA victim.

You’re a lunatic for thinking that is somehow relevant to this and you are FAR from normal. I’m a pale, thinnish woman who is known to be clumsy and I’ve never had so many bruises. But then neither do you.

Different poster and I also always have tons of bruises. So does my sister. My husband always says people are going to think he’s abusing me. The bruises that Ellen had tell us absolutely nothing

[Anonymous]

Here is a study on this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11009059/

1/3 its only 1 fatal cut
85% were wrists or necks
Of the 15% that are stab wounds 79% are on the dorsal

Literally her case is the 1% or less. Making it very very unlikely it was suicide and not a murder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor girl killed herself. And poor finance had had to live with this hanging over him for almost 15 years

It’s weird how that stress didn’t lead to weight loss.

Stop being hateful on anonymous forums and read the evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ruled a suicide again. I don't see how that is remotely possible.

https://people.com/ellen-greenberg-death-ruled-suicide-again-11828915

This case is bizarre. I don’t trust the medical examiner’s office. I’m so sad for her family. They’ve fought so hard for so long, and all they’re asking for is for her death to be investigated, which it absolutely should be. The system has failed Ellen repeatedly — at someone’s direction.

How has it failed her? How many times do you think taxpayer money should go towards it being investigated only to come to the same resolution? And before you say “there should be an independent investigation”, you don’t think that will be biased? Sometimes, weird things actually happen.

The Medical Examiner’s Office has reviewed their findings. That’s the only “investigation” so far. Her death has not been investigated as a homicide because it’s been ruled a suicide. Multiple privately hired expert medical examiners disagree with the local ME’s findings. Common sense tells us that suicide sounds far fetched, and we know her fiancé engaged in highly suspicious behavior the day of and first couple days after her death. Her family wants homicide detectives to investigate the her death, which they have not done.

You can hire experts to say anything. And I disagree that her fiancé acted suspiciously.

He lied about being accompanied when he found her body, for one. And what possessed him to break down the door?

I read the Me report which contains pieces of original police reports and the fiancés statement that night. He didn’t lie. Someone - they don’t know who- stated that the security guard was with him when he broke down the door, but there’s no evidence it was the fiancé ‘lying’. Likely just confusion. He did break down the door, after the cameras and witnesses tracked him coming from the gym, knocking on the door, calling her, engaging the security guard to help him etc (the sec guard didn’t bc as he said ‘he couldn’t leave his post’). He immediately talked to the police, was seen crying hysterically in the hallway, he went to the station voluntarily etc
There’s nothing suspicious about his behavior, other than people wanting to pick apart his 911 call as if there is some universal standard for how people are supposed to react in the face of a tragedy. There was no history of DA and in fact her parents immediately supported this when asked by the police that evening. The door was locked from the inside, there was no evidence of any other access, no disturbance, no defensive marks on her, no marks on him, none of his DNA on the knife.

I feel bad for everyone here. The parents clearly can’t accept their daughter was mentally ill and killed herself ; apparently there was a history of her having mental health issues, and her parents were not particularly supportive of her taking medication. They probably feel subconsciously guilty. But it’s time for them to let it go.

I agree with you. I think people are trying to apply rational logic to an irrational mind. If you’ve never known anyone with serious mental illness or been mentally ill, it can all be very hard to imagine. I feel for her parents. I feel for her as I don’t think she would have ever intended to haunt them this way. The whole thing is just horrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ruled a suicide again. I don't see how that is remotely possible.

https://people.com/ellen-greenberg-death-ruled-suicide-again-11828915

This case is bizarre. I don’t trust the medical examiner’s office. I’m so sad for her family. They’ve fought so hard for so long, and all they’re asking for is for her death to be investigated, which it absolutely should be. The system has failed Ellen repeatedly — at someone’s direction.

How has it failed her? How many times do you think taxpayer money should go towards it being investigated only to come to the same resolution? And before you say “there should be an independent investigation”, you don’t think that will be biased? Sometimes, weird things actually happen.

The Medical Examiner’s Office has reviewed their findings. That’s the only “investigation” so far. Her death has not been investigated as a homicide because it’s been ruled a suicide. Multiple privately hired expert medical examiners disagree with the local ME’s findings. Common sense tells us that suicide sounds far fetched, and we know her fiancé engaged in highly suspicious behavior the day of and first couple days after her death. Her family wants homicide detectives to investigate the her death, which they have not done.

You can hire experts to say anything. And I disagree that her fiancé acted suspiciously.

He lied about being accompanied when he found her body, for one. And what possessed him to break down the door?

I read the Me report which contains pieces of original police reports and the fiancés statement that night. He didn’t lie. Someone - they don’t know who- stated that the security guard was with him when he broke down the door, but there’s no evidence it was the fiancé ‘lying’. Likely just confusion. He did break down the door, after the cameras and witnesses tracked him coming from the gym, knocking on the door, calling her, engaging the security guard to help him etc (the sec guard didn’t bc as he said ‘he couldn’t leave his post’). He immediately talked to the police, was seen crying hysterically in the hallway, he went to the station voluntarily etc
There’s nothing suspicious about his behavior, other than people wanting to pick apart his 911 call as if there is some universal standard for how people are supposed to react in the face of a tragedy. There was no history of DA and in fact her parents immediately supported this when asked by the police that evening. The door was locked from the inside, there was no evidence of any other access, no disturbance, no defensive marks on her, no marks on him, none of his DNA on the knife.

I feel bad for everyone here. The parents clearly can’t accept their daughter was mentally ill and killed herself ; apparently there was a history of her having mental health issues, and her parents were not particularly supportive of her taking medication. They probably feel subconsciously guilty. But it’s time for them to let it go.

I’m a former DV advocate and a former prosecutor, so that’s the experience I bring to my analysis. When I first saw a docu (20/20?) about this case years ago, I thought no way it’s suicide he must have murdered her.

But in the intervening years I’ve learned a lot more about suicidology, about the mistakes often made by MEs, and I agree that Ellen committed suicide and her parents just can’t accept it.

Let me also say, that it is possible her husband was a mean jerk and he might have even pushed her around leading to some of the old bruises and that his abusiveness was one of the factors driving her depression and anxiety as the wedding loomed.

I grew up in a DV marriage and spent many years as an advocate before becoming a prosecutor, I’ve worked with hundreds of victims and the psychological issues are very complex. Denial is a huge factor because love gets mixed up with abuse and the wishful thinking that things will change. I can see her saying lots of good to her therapist about her fiancé even though he might have been a jerk to her, shoved her around, been unsupportive about her anxiety over her job, etc.

Her parents were also unsupportive about her mental health issues - probably what drives the guilt that motivates them to refuse to believe she suicided. She needed to come home and repair her mental health away from work, engagement etc. and they essentially refused her that safe haven.

Suicide is VERY often an IMPULSIVE act, and often seems to come out of nowhere - even to therapists. Sometimes there are clear signs, sometimes suicidal ideation is never expressed before the act takes place.

Ellen was clearly struggling with her mental health. She had begged her parents to let her come home, away from work and her fiancé and her looming wedding. She had a ton of pressure on her. They basically made it clear they would be disappointed if she walked away from all those pressure. I believe she was sitting there in her kitchen, eating her fruit salad while perusing the wedding planning website, and she felt that impulse - I can end all of this right now and I will be at peace and no more stress and pressure. She took those first stabs at herself that were shallow and hesitant, to see how much it hurt and if she could endure it. Then she got her nerve up, went into a frenzy attack, and repeatedly stabbed herself in the upper back/head and ultimately plunged the knife into her own chest.

Stabbing is a rarer form of suicide but it isn’t out of the realm of what we see. Somebody posted a news story about a middle aged teacher killing herself in the same way so obviously it happens even with females.

I believe the consensus is that the spinal cord severing actually occurred at autopsy and doesn’t undermine the theory of suicide at all.

I feel a great deal of compassion for Ellen’s parents, but also for her former fiancé. I think the overwhelming evidence points to suicide, there is no evidence that solidly points to murder - but this is the kind of case that an overzealous prosecutor could use to put an innocent man in prison - as we’ve seen too many times. If there was a strong case for murder, the current Philly DA who is a reformer would have pursued it. It’s not there, it’s just a really sad case.

RIP Ellen

[Anonymous]

I’m more sympathetic than not to the POV that suicide is unlikely (though not impossible) here, but I take an SSRI and it makes me bruise easily. For for Ellen this could have been a factor of the meds.

I was surprised that the parents didn’t express regret for telling her not to quit her job and come home when she clearly wanted to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor girl killed herself. And poor finance had had to live with this hanging over him for almost 15 years

It’s weird how that stress didn’t lead to weight loss.

Stop being hateful on anonymous forums and read the evidence.

I hope that fat murdering loser never knows a moment’s peace.