Did Ellen Greenberg’s fiancé kill her?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just don’t see how it’s remotely plausible that she inflicted those injuries on herself, nor why she was stressing over grading after filling her tank and washing fruit and dishes and then stabbed herself repeatedly. It doesn’t make sense, and her fiancé’s tone in the 911 call doesn’t make sense. This is not mysterious. He killed her. I’m so sorry for Ellen and her parents.

It’s odd of course- hence all of this- but it is possible. She had many hesitation marks. The gas and fruit is meaningless. Suicide is often an impulsive act. Her fiancés 911 call was fine.

Find another hobby

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is a study on this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11009059/

1/3 its only 1 fatal cut
85% were wrists or necks
Of the 15% that are stab wounds 79% are on the dorsal

Literally her case is the 1% or less. Making it very very unlikely it was suicide and not a murder.

Yea, and the unusual placement is pretty much the only reason this investigation went on. Bc pretty much every other fact indicates suicide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ruled a suicide again. I don't see how that is remotely possible.

https://people.com/ellen-greenberg-death-ruled-suicide-again-11828915

This case is bizarre. I don’t trust the medical examiner’s office. I’m so sad for her family. They’ve fought so hard for so long, and all they’re asking for is for her death to be investigated, which it absolutely should be. The system has failed Ellen repeatedly — at someone’s direction.

How has it failed her? How many times do you think taxpayer money should go towards it being investigated only to come to the same resolution? And before you say “there should be an independent investigation”, you don’t think that will be biased? Sometimes, weird things actually happen.

The Medical Examiner’s Office has reviewed their findings. That’s the only “investigation” so far. Her death has not been investigated as a homicide because it’s been ruled a suicide. Multiple privately hired expert medical examiners disagree with the local ME’s findings. Common sense tells us that suicide sounds far fetched, and we know her fiancé engaged in highly suspicious behavior the day of and first couple days after her death. Her family wants homicide detectives to investigate the her death, which they have not done.

You can hire experts to say anything. And I disagree that her fiancé acted suspiciously.

He lied about being accompanied when he found her body, for one. And what possessed him to break down the door?

I read the Me report which contains pieces of original police reports and the fiancés statement that night. He didn’t lie. Someone - they don’t know who- stated that the security guard was with him when he broke down the door, but there’s no evidence it was the fiancé ‘lying’. Likely just confusion. He did break down the door, after the cameras and witnesses tracked him coming from the gym, knocking on the door, calling her, engaging the security guard to help him etc (the sec guard didn’t bc as he said ‘he couldn’t leave his post’). He immediately talked to the police, was seen crying hysterically in the hallway, he went to the station voluntarily etc
There’s nothing suspicious about his behavior, other than people wanting to pick apart his 911 call as if there is some universal standard for how people are supposed to react in the face of a tragedy. There was no history of DA and in fact her parents immediately supported this when asked by the police that evening. The door was locked from the inside, there was no evidence of any other access, no disturbance, no defensive marks on her, no marks on him, none of his DNA on the knife.

I feel bad for everyone here. The parents clearly can’t accept their daughter was mentally ill and killed herself ; apparently there was a history of her having mental health issues, and her parents were not particularly supportive of her taking medication. They probably feel subconsciously guilty. But it’s time for them to let it go.

I’m a former DV advocate and a former prosecutor, so that’s the experience I bring to my analysis. When I first saw a docu (20/20?) about this case years ago, I thought no way it’s suicide he must have murdered her.

But in the intervening years I’ve learned a lot more about suicidology, about the mistakes often made by MEs, and I agree that Ellen committed suicide and her parents just can’t accept it.

Let me also say, that it is possible her husband was a mean jerk and he might have even pushed her around leading to some of the old bruises and that his abusiveness was one of the factors driving her depression and anxiety as the wedding loomed.

I grew up in a DV marriage and spent many years as an advocate before becoming a prosecutor, I’ve worked with hundreds of victims and the psychological issues are very complex. Denial is a huge factor because love gets mixed up with abuse and the wishful thinking that things will change. I can see her saying lots of good to her therapist about her fiancé even though he might have been a jerk to her, shoved her around, been unsupportive about her anxiety over her job, etc.

Her parents were also unsupportive about her mental health issues - probably what drives the guilt that motivates them to refuse to believe she suicided. She needed to come home and repair her mental health away from work, engagement etc. and they essentially refused her that safe haven.

Suicide is VERY often an IMPULSIVE act, and often seems to come out of nowhere - even to therapists. Sometimes there are clear signs, sometimes suicidal ideation is never expressed before the act takes place.

Ellen was clearly struggling with her mental health. She had begged her parents to let her come home, away from work and her fiancé and her looming wedding. She had a ton of pressure on her. They basically made it clear they would be disappointed if she walked away from all those pressure. I believe she was sitting there in her kitchen, eating her fruit salad while perusing the wedding planning website, and she felt that impulse - I can end all of this right now and I will be at peace and no more stress and pressure. She took those first stabs at herself that were shallow and hesitant, to see how much it hurt and if she could endure it. Then she got her nerve up, went into a frenzy attack, and repeatedly stabbed herself in the upper back/head and ultimately plunged the knife into her own chest.

Stabbing is a rarer form of suicide but it isn’t out of the realm of what we see. Somebody posted a news story about a middle aged teacher killing herself in the same way so obviously it happens even with females.

I believe the consensus is that the spinal cord severing actually occurred at autopsy and doesn’t undermine the theory of suicide at all.

I feel a great deal of compassion for Ellen’s parents, but also for her former fiancé. I think the overwhelming evidence points to suicide, there is no evidence that solidly points to murder - but this is the kind of case that an overzealous prosecutor could use to put an innocent man in prison - as we’ve seen too many times. If there was a strong case for murder, the current Philly DA who is a reformer would have pursued it. It’s not there, it’s just a really sad case.

RIP Ellen

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a study on this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11009059/

1/3 its only 1 fatal cut
85% were wrists or necks
Of the 15% that are stab wounds 79% are on the dorsal

Literally her case is the 1% or less. Making it very very unlikely it was suicide and not a murder.

Yea, and the unusual placement is pretty much the only reason this investigation went on. Bc pretty much every other fact indicates suicide.

Except why did his uncle come into the apartment and take her electronics? What’s the reason to do that unless they suspect something incriminating?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

She stopped wearing her engagement ring too. The teacher coworkers thought that was suspicious. Maybe she was having doubts about him and did want to leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

She stopped wearing her engagement ring too. The teacher coworkers thought that was suspicious. Maybe she was having doubts about him and did want to leave.

Maybe she was having doubts. That doesn’t change anything. Certainly doesn’t indicate he was abusing her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just don’t see how it’s remotely plausible that she inflicted those injuries on herself, nor why she was stressing over grading after filling her tank and washing fruit and dishes and then stabbed herself repeatedly. It doesn’t make sense, and her fiancé’s tone in the 911 call doesn’t make sense. This is not mysterious. He killed her. I’m so sorry for Ellen and her parents.

It’s odd of course- hence all of this- but it is possible. She had many hesitation marks. The gas and fruit is meaningless. Suicide is often an impulsive act. Her fiancés 911 call was fine.

Find another hobby

Eat a fat dick. Dozen-plus hesitation marks and then repeated plunging of a knife into her own head and heart? Fat fart nothing Sam gets professional crime scene cleanup into the apartment?

Tell Sam EVERYONE understands he killed her. Including her teacher colleagues who said she stopped wearing her ring. Who watched him at services and made clear they knew it was him in the Hulu doc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just don’t see how it’s remotely plausible that she inflicted those injuries on herself, nor why she was stressing over grading after filling her tank and washing fruit and dishes and then stabbed herself repeatedly. It doesn’t make sense, and her fiancé’s tone in the 911 call doesn’t make sense. This is not mysterious. He killed her. I’m so sorry for Ellen and her parents.

It’s odd of course- hence all of this- but it is possible. She had many hesitation marks. The gas and fruit is meaningless. Suicide is often an impulsive act. Her fiancés 911 call was fine.

Find another hobby

Eat a fat dick. Dozen-plus hesitation marks and then repeated plunging of a knife into her own head and heart? Fat fart nothing Sam gets professional crime scene cleanup into the apartment?

Tell Sam EVERYONE understands he killed her. Including her teacher colleagues who said she stopped wearing her ring. Who watched him at services and made clear they knew it was him in the Hulu doc.

I have no dog in this fight, but professionals to come clean after something graphic like this is very normal. My friend's mother (70s) died rather graphically in her home, alone, one night (some sort of ruptured ulcer? I just know there was blood everywhere, trailing down the hall, etc it sounded awful). And one of the first things that was done, along with the funeral planning, etc was hiring crime scene type cleaners to come and clean the home. It's disturbing work and you can't just ask any old cleaning lady to come scrub.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just don’t see how it’s remotely plausible that she inflicted those injuries on herself, nor why she was stressing over grading after filling her tank and washing fruit and dishes and then stabbed herself repeatedly. It doesn’t make sense, and her fiancé’s tone in the 911 call doesn’t make sense. This is not mysterious. He killed her. I’m so sorry for Ellen and her parents.

It’s odd of course- hence all of this- but it is possible. She had many hesitation marks. The gas and fruit is meaningless. Suicide is often an impulsive act. Her fiancés 911 call was fine.

Find another hobby

Eat a fat dick. Dozen-plus hesitation marks and then repeated plunging of a knife into her own head and heart? Fat fart nothing Sam gets professional crime scene cleanup into the apartment?

Tell Sam EVERYONE understands he killed her. Including her teacher colleagues who said she stopped wearing her ring. Who watched him at services and made clear they knew it was him in the Hulu doc.

Sam didn’t hire the cleaners! The apartment manager did, which she stated in the documentary. You don’t even know the facts. Go away

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a study on this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11009059/

1/3 its only 1 fatal cut
85% were wrists or necks
Of the 15% that are stab wounds 79% are on the dorsal

Literally her case is the 1% or less. Making it very very unlikely it was suicide and not a murder.

Yea, and the unusual placement is pretty much the only reason this investigation went on. Bc pretty much every other fact indicates suicide.

Except why did his uncle come into the apartment and take her electronics? What’s the reason to do that unless they suspect something incriminating?

You are not an analytical person

She was Jewish and burial happens fast. They likely took laptops for pics for her funeral. They were returned and nothing untoward was found, but searches for suicide were found.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

She stopped wearing her engagement ring too. The teacher coworkers thought that was suspicious. Maybe she was having doubts about him and did want to leave.

She was working with children in a public school in Philly. Can you think of another reason she wouldn’t wear a gigantic diamond to work?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just don’t see how it’s remotely plausible that she inflicted those injuries on herself, nor why she was stressing over grading after filling her tank and washing fruit and dishes and then stabbed herself repeatedly. It doesn’t make sense, and her fiancé’s tone in the 911 call doesn’t make sense. This is not mysterious. He killed her. I’m so sorry for Ellen and her parents.

It’s odd of course- hence all of this- but it is possible. She had many hesitation marks. The gas and fruit is meaningless. Suicide is often an impulsive act. Her fiancés 911 call was fine.

Find another hobby

Eat a fat dick. Dozen-plus hesitation marks and then repeated plunging of a knife into her own head and heart? Fat fart nothing Sam gets professional crime scene cleanup into the apartment?

Tell Sam EVERYONE understands he killed her. Including her teacher colleagues who said she stopped wearing her ring. Who watched him at services and made clear they knew it was him in the Hulu doc.

I watched the Hulu doc and that wasn’t my take away at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just don’t see how it’s remotely plausible that she inflicted those injuries on herself, nor why she was stressing over grading after filling her tank and washing fruit and dishes and then stabbed herself repeatedly. It doesn’t make sense, and her fiancé’s tone in the 911 call doesn’t make sense. This is not mysterious. He killed her. I’m so sorry for Ellen and her parents.

It’s odd of course- hence all of this- but it is possible. She had many hesitation marks. The gas and fruit is meaningless. Suicide is often an impulsive act. Her fiancés 911 call was fine.

Find another hobby

Eat a fat dick. Dozen-plus hesitation marks and then repeated plunging of a knife into her own head and heart? Fat fart nothing Sam gets professional crime scene cleanup into the apartment?

Tell Sam EVERYONE understands he killed her. Including her teacher colleagues who said she stopped wearing her ring. Who watched him at services and made clear they knew it was him in the Hulu doc.

I have no dog in this fight, but professionals to come clean after something graphic like this is very normal. My friend's mother (70s) died rather graphically in her home, alone, one night (some sort of ruptured ulcer? I just know there was blood everywhere, trailing down the hall, etc it sounded awful). And one of the first things that was done, along with the funeral planning, etc was hiring crime scene type cleaners to come and clean the home. It's disturbing work and you can't just ask any old cleaning lady to come scrub.

This. I know someone who committed suicide by stabbing themselves- sick but it does happen - and a crime scene cleaner came in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

She stopped wearing her engagement ring too. The teacher coworkers thought that was suspicious. Maybe she was having doubts about him and did want to leave.

She was working with children in a public school in Philly. Can you think of another reason she wouldn’t wear a gigantic diamond to work?

Bingo!

[Anonymous]

I watched the documentary on this recently. Sam's texts to her are the biggest reason why I don't believe he killed her.

Let's say he killed her. He murdered her, went to the gym for an alibi, and then wanted to send her texts saying he was locked out to further the evidence of suicide.

If that were you, what kind of texts would you send? Wouldn't you send texts like, "honey, I'm locked out! Can you open the door?" "Is everything ok? I'm worried about you." etc...that made you seem like a nice, caring fiancé.

Instead, his texts are really angry and mean. If you know your fiancé is dead and you killed her and you want to make it look like suicide, what sane person would send angry, mean texts knowing it makes you look worse?