Did Ellen Greenberg’s fiancé kill her?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is a study on this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11009059/

1/3 its only 1 fatal cut
85% were wrists or necks
Of the 15% that are stab wounds 79% are on the dorsal

Literally her case is the 1% or less. Making it very very unlikely it was suicide and not a murder.

Yes, her suicide was a statistical anomaly. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t suicide.

I see a lot of people hung up on the original ME ruling, so as a former prosecutor I’ll share some context from my experience.

Ellen’s wounds do fall into a very small percent of total suicides that involved multiple stab wounds, especially in cases with female suicides. It makes sense that a ME would initially think this pattern of wounds suggests homicide rather than suicide. But a ME’s findings must consider the full context of the victim’s situation and the scene of the death. After meeting with law enforcement the ME recognized that the absence of defensive wounds, the absence of any signs of struggle at the scene, the absence of DNA other than Ellen’s on the weapons that caused death - this evidence taken in totality rules out homicide and leaves suicide as the only possible finding, particularly in light of Ellen’s psychological autopsy.

It’s interesting to me that nobody has even mentioned Ellen’s extreme slightness, which is suggestive of a longstanding pattern of mental health issues leading to disordered eating.

The more I think about this case the more it makes me so utterly sad for Ellen. It is clear that nobody closest to her in her life - her fiancé, her parents - was fully supportive of the mental health issues she was struggling with nor did they recognize that she was in crisis, not even her therapist. I have handled numerous cases of suicide in my career and I have firsthand experience of the irrationality of family members who cannot accept the suicide of a loved one. It is especially difficult when they feel - probably rightly so - that they in some way failed the suicided person. Ellen begged her parents for help; her parents refused the help, told her to stand on her feet and manage her life. She was desperate and didn’t believe she could manage her life (because her brain was sick and lying to her) so she ended it instead - and they cannot forgive themselves, so it is easier to point fingers at her fiancé and call him a murderer. It’s Shakespearean level tragic. I have compassion for them but it’s also awful that Sam’s kids will one day see that their dad is being called a murderer and abuser all over the internet by armchairs sleuths who in many cases don’t even bother to examine all the evidence.

[Anonymous]

Agree. I feel terrible for Sam. Her parents have suffered but now they’re making an innocent person suffer

[Anonymous]

Sam should sue them for defamation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sam should sue them for defamation

They haven’t said anything that can be proven untrue. They have (paid) experts, but experts nonetheless, supporting their interpretation of the evidence. Just as it’s really hard to prove he did it, it’s also really hard for him to prove he didn’t, thanks to the terrible police work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Agree. I feel terrible for Sam. Her parents have suffered but now they’re making an innocent person suffer

+2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sam should sue them for defamation

They haven’t said anything that can be proven untrue. They have (paid) experts, but experts nonetheless, supporting their interpretation of the evidence. Just as it’s really hard to prove he did it, it’s also really hard for him to prove he didn’t, thanks to the terrible police work.

What are you going on about? You clearly don’t understand the law, so save it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sam should sue them for defamation

They haven’t said anything that can be proven untrue. They have (paid) experts, but experts nonetheless, supporting their interpretation of the evidence. Just as it’s really hard to prove he did it, it’s also really hard for him to prove he didn’t, thanks to the terrible police work.

• The elements (in many jurisdictions) for defamation by implication include:
1. Publication to a third party.
2. Identification of the plaintiff (the reader reasonably understands the implication is about them).
3. A defamatory implication: the “gist or sting” tends to harm reputation.
4. Falsity of the implication (even if the literal statements are true). 
5. Fault: For private individuals, negligence may suffice; for public figures, actual malice (knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard) is required. 
• The arrangement, omission, or juxtaposition of facts can create actionable implication — e.g., truthful statements in isolation may still be defamatory if combined in a way that suggests a false conclusion

[Anonymous]

^ The defendant cannot defend by saying “I believed the ME report was wrong” — unless they can prove the accusation true (i.e., that Plaintiff actually committed homicide)

[Anonymous]

They have never said he was the perp. Only that she didn’t kill herself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They have never said he was the perp. Only that she didn’t kill herself.

First I doubt that’s entirely accurate (maybe not in the doc bc they had lawyers screening for it) but in any event, defamation by implication doesn’t require that

[Anonymous]

Philadelphia has nice sections—Ellen and Sam were living in one of them—but it is a poor, large, corrupt, mismanaged city with terrible services. The mishandling of this case by Philadelphia police means that none of the survivors of this tragedy will ever fully know peace. That includes Ellen’s parents but it also includes Sam if he is indeed innocent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a study on this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11009059/

1/3 its only 1 fatal cut
85% were wrists or necks
Of the 15% that are stab wounds 79% are on the dorsal

Literally her case is the 1% or less. Making it very very unlikely it was suicide and not a murder.

Yes, her suicide was a statistical anomaly. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t suicide.

I see a lot of people hung up on the original ME ruling, so as a former prosecutor I’ll share some context from my experience.

Ellen’s wounds do fall into a very small percent of total suicides that involved multiple stab wounds, especially in cases with female suicides. It makes sense that a ME would initially think this pattern of wounds suggests homicide rather than suicide. But a ME’s findings must consider the full context of the victim’s situation and the scene of the death. After meeting with law enforcement the ME recognized that the absence of defensive wounds, the absence of any signs of struggle at the scene, the absence of DNA other than Ellen’s on the weapons that caused death - this evidence taken in totality rules out homicide and leaves suicide as the only possible finding, particularly in light of Ellen’s psychological autopsy.

It’s interesting to me that nobody has even mentioned Ellen’s extreme slightness, which is suggestive of a longstanding pattern of mental health issues leading to disordered eating.

The more I think about this case the more it makes me so utterly sad for Ellen. It is clear that nobody closest to her in her life - her fiancé, her parents - was fully supportive of the mental health issues she was struggling with nor did they recognize that she was in crisis, not even her therapist. I have handled numerous cases of suicide in my career and I have firsthand experience of the irrationality of family members who cannot accept the suicide of a loved one. It is especially difficult when they feel - probably rightly so - that they in some way failed the suicided person. Ellen begged her parents for help; her parents refused the help, told her to stand on her feet and manage her life. She was desperate and didn’t believe she could manage her life (because her brain was sick and lying to her) so she ended it instead - and they cannot forgive themselves, so it is easier to point fingers at her fiancé and call him a murderer. It’s Shakespearean level tragic. I have compassion for them but it’s also awful that Sam’s kids will one day see that their dad is being called a murderer and abuser all over the internet by armchairs sleuths who in many cases don’t even bother to examine all the evidence.

What do you make of that same ME changing their opinion again, saying in recent years that they no longer believe this was a suicide?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a study on this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11009059/

1/3 its only 1 fatal cut
85% were wrists or necks
Of the 15% that are stab wounds 79% are on the dorsal

Literally her case is the 1% or less. Making it very very unlikely it was suicide and not a murder.

Yes, her suicide was a statistical anomaly. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t suicide.

I see a lot of people hung up on the original ME ruling, so as a former prosecutor I’ll share some context from my experience.

Ellen’s wounds do fall into a very small percent of total suicides that involved multiple stab wounds, especially in cases with female suicides. It makes sense that a ME would initially think this pattern of wounds suggests homicide rather than suicide. But a ME’s findings must consider the full context of the victim’s situation and the scene of the death. After meeting with law enforcement the ME recognized that the absence of defensive wounds, the absence of any signs of struggle at the scene, the absence of DNA other than Ellen’s on the weapons that caused death - this evidence taken in totality rules out homicide and leaves suicide as the only possible finding, particularly in light of Ellen’s psychological autopsy.

It’s interesting to me that nobody has even mentioned Ellen’s extreme slightness, which is suggestive of a longstanding pattern of mental health issues leading to disordered eating.

The more I think about this case the more it makes me so utterly sad for Ellen. It is clear that nobody closest to her in her life - her fiancé, her parents - was fully supportive of the mental health issues she was struggling with nor did they recognize that she was in crisis, not even her therapist. I have handled numerous cases of suicide in my career and I have firsthand experience of the irrationality of family members who cannot accept the suicide of a loved one. It is especially difficult when they feel - probably rightly so - that they in some way failed the suicided person. Ellen begged her parents for help; her parents refused the help, told her to stand on her feet and manage her life. She was desperate and didn’t believe she could manage her life (because her brain was sick and lying to her) so she ended it instead - and they cannot forgive themselves, so it is easier to point fingers at her fiancé and call him a murderer. It’s Shakespearean level tragic. I have compassion for them but it’s also awful that Sam’s kids will one day see that their dad is being called a murderer and abuser all over the internet by armchairs sleuths who in many cases don’t even bother to examine all the evidence.

What do you make of that same ME changing their opinion again, saying in recent years that they no longer believe this was a suicide?

DP but the original ME was sued by the Greenbergs and pressured via lawsuit and media coverage to change his opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a study on this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11009059/

1/3 its only 1 fatal cut
85% were wrists or necks
Of the 15% that are stab wounds 79% are on the dorsal

Literally her case is the 1% or less. Making it very very unlikely it was suicide and not a murder.

Yes, her suicide was a statistical anomaly. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t suicide.

I see a lot of people hung up on the original ME ruling, so as a former prosecutor I’ll share some context from my experience.

Ellen’s wounds do fall into a very small percent of total suicides that involved multiple stab wounds, especially in cases with female suicides. It makes sense that a ME would initially think this pattern of wounds suggests homicide rather than suicide. But a ME’s findings must consider the full context of the victim’s situation and the scene of the death. After meeting with law enforcement the ME recognized that the absence of defensive wounds, the absence of any signs of struggle at the scene, the absence of DNA other than Ellen’s on the weapons that caused death - this evidence taken in totality rules out homicide and leaves suicide as the only possible finding, particularly in light of Ellen’s psychological autopsy.

It’s interesting to me that nobody has even mentioned Ellen’s extreme slightness, which is suggestive of a longstanding pattern of mental health issues leading to disordered eating.

The more I think about this case the more it makes me so utterly sad for Ellen. It is clear that nobody closest to her in her life - her fiancé, her parents - was fully supportive of the mental health issues she was struggling with nor did they recognize that she was in crisis, not even her therapist. I have handled numerous cases of suicide in my career and I have firsthand experience of the irrationality of family members who cannot accept the suicide of a loved one. It is especially difficult when they feel - probably rightly so - that they in some way failed the suicided person. Ellen begged her parents for help; her parents refused the help, told her to stand on her feet and manage her life. She was desperate and didn’t believe she could manage her life (because her brain was sick and lying to her) so she ended it instead - and they cannot forgive themselves, so it is easier to point fingers at her fiancé and call him a murderer. It’s Shakespearean level tragic. I have compassion for them but it’s also awful that Sam’s kids will one day see that their dad is being called a murderer and abuser all over the internet by armchairs sleuths who in many cases don’t even bother to examine all the evidence.

What do you make of that same ME changing their opinion again, saying in recent years that they no longer believe this was a suicide?

Also, he didn’t say he thought it wasn’t suicide, just that the finding should be something other than suicide. Like unknown. Again, due to pressure by the Greenbergs

[Anonymous]

The report by the new ME to support a finding of suicide is a pretty abysmal report. It’s incredibly short for an ME report given the number of injuries, doesn’t go into any kind of detail about the injuries to Ellen (typically you’d see an in depth write up for each injury), and references the Hulu documentary when talking about the circumstantial evidence in the case (I literally had to read this section several times because I couldn’t believe my eyes). I honestly don’t know what happened in this case, but putting any kind of stock into this report is a mistake. If I were a proponent of suicide in this case, I wouldn’t point to this report for any kind of support.