An immigrants musings on the SAHM vs working mom debate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm from a South Asian family and NO grandmother is 65+ when she has her young grandbabies. Many are in their late forties or early fifties. My own mother has WOH my entire life and she isn't retired yet (my oldest is six) and I think many of our own children aren't going to be able to take for granted our willingness to retire young and take care of their infants.

The second point is accurate. Many families rely on relatives who were "SAH" (not by choice) themselves. They do not understand why anybody would do it because they don't have the same conception of infancy and childhood that has become popular in America, esp. middle and upper class America-- not yet. You don't see women from this particular generation talking infants through diaper changes, reading aloud to them, and participating in their earliest education. Their role is to feed and keep kids alive, in a way. And that sounds unkind, but it used to be a really hard job, and now it's ridiculously easy and you can do it while sitting in front of the TV all day, which is why it's hard to understand what the hell all the well-educated American women are doing choosing to stay at home with their kids.

And it's hard for American women to understand why well-educated South Asian women are willing to leave their kids with uneducated, poorly paid nannies or unpaid relatives, even though it's about exactly the same thing (I think): transmission of cultural values (at rock bottom prices).

+1 I think you explained it perfectly - maybe this is the answer that will get through to OP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

[phone]

Don't even bother trying to reason with American SAHM. They use some flawed logic to justify their decision to be a SAH. To live in a highly advanced nation and chose to be less productive is just stupidity. I still think the reason for this decision is laziness. No sugar coating this. It's pure laziness. When it's divorce time they seemed surprised by the outcome when the husband takes everything.

Btw: I'm an American born and raised and fortunate to have travelled the world and witness the economical challenges women face in various parts of the world. I'm fortunate to be able to work and provide for myself and family.

Children are children for a very short time. SAHMs can always begin a career. Hell, many working adults change their careers mid-way through life.

If handing off my 6 week old to a daycare/nanny equals me being less productive at some office job, consider me less productive.

Go to the Jobs and Careers forum and read all the posts from career SAHMs who are now trying to enter the workforce and finding no meaningful work except per-hour admin drudgery.

And while you're there, check out all the posts from miserable WOHMs desperately seeking advice on how to maximize that one or two hours per day they have with their children. Or asking how they could manage to cut back their hours so their lives are a tiny bit less chaotic and stressful. Yep, being a WOHM is pure utopian bliss! :lol:

Working outside the home is not "utopian bliss" -- of course not! It is called being a responsible adult, able to contribute to society and her household budget. Do men sit around musing all day that working outside the home is not the utopian bliss they signed up for? Go back to the 1950s and pill popping housewives wearing aprons.

One more woman stretching her intellectual muscles and completely missing the point. :roll:

[Anonymous]

I like working outside the home. I did not like handing my 10-week old infant, and half of my paycheck, to a relative stranger. I think that's the rub.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

ditto this.
Happy people don't judge others. Period.

OP here.

This is silly. We just think it is a shame to not take advantage of so many opportunities available to women in this country. Motherhood is amazing and life changing but honestly, children really really need you to be there the first 12 years of their life. Once they become teenagers they do not need a parent hovering over their every move. Women need to develop a sense of identity aside from being a mom and a purpose besides being a mother. What will you do once your kid goes off to college? Once the hard work of 4 am feedings, cleaning poop and giving baths are over, a woman needs to find other means to occupy her time.

Why would you not want to develop your mind, learn new things, grow as an individual and as a professional? Don't you want to step outside your house in the suburbs and find things to talk about other than how there's a great deal on Jack Rogers at Nordstroms or how your 6 year old needs glasses?

You're in the United States of America. You can be more than just a housewife. Don't you want to show your daughter or son that you, as a woman, can take an active role in your community?

I don't stay up at night worried for what you're missing out on but sometimes, as I am walking down the aisle at whole foods and see a woman who is clearly a SAHM, these thoughts cross my mind.

You seem vapid and vaguely trollish. How in the world would you know that a random woman at Whole Foods is a SAHM? *Clearly*? What is that supposed to mean?

And kind of myopic with a really low opinion of women. As if the bolded parts are unavailable to a SAHM. Clueless. Op, we just stepped out of the paid workforce for the childhood years. We are not sitting around twiddling our thumbs and shopping. Where on earth are you getting this crazy ideas?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Um, maybe she had day care or a nanny of any ethnicity, or help from grandparents -- like all of us working moms? Crawl back under your rock, Trump supporter. You dishonor America.

Close, except I'm South Asian, liberal, whose parents grew up in a 3rd world village. I had a SAHM, and she babysat for many working moms of color for extra cash. (So my mom cleaned other kid's poop.) My point is that OP looks down on people who clean babies' poop, but won't tell us who cared for her own babies. I know her type - and find them condescending and arrogant. I mentioned the possible nationalities of her nanny (if she had one) because UMC South Asians in this area typically have Southeast Asian nannies.

OP here. Most South Asian families that I know where the wife is a doctor, lawyer or a reporter, their mothers live with them and care for the baby. The mothers are super proud of their daughters and help out by making food and taking care of the child. They don't outsource this unless hiring a weekly house keeper.

But, but, then their moms have no dignity and are not contributing to society!

These are older women in their 65+ and are mostly in retirement. Or they are from an older generation where all they knew to do was care for babies and keep the house clean.

I'm from a South Asian family and NO grandmother is 65+ when she has her young grandbabies. Many are in their late forties or early fifties. My own mother has WOH my entire life and she isn't retired yet (my oldest is six) and I think many of our own children aren't going to be able to take for granted our willingness to retire young and take care of their infants.

The second point is accurate. Many families rely on relatives who were "SAH" (not by choice) themselves. They do not understand why anybody would do it because they don't have the same conception of infancy and childhood that has become popular in America, esp. middle and upper class America-- not yet. You don't see women from this particular generation talking infants through diaper changes, reading aloud to them, and participating in their earliest education. Their role is to feed and keep kids alive, in a way. And that sounds unkind, but it used to be a really hard job, and now it's ridiculously easy and you can do it while sitting in front of the TV all day, which is why it's hard to understand what the hell all the well-educated American women are doing choosing to stay at home with their kids.

And it's hard for American women to understand why well-educated South Asian women are willing to leave their kids with uneducated, poorly paid nannies or unpaid relatives, even though it's about exactly the same thing (I think): transmission of cultural values (at rock bottom prices).

OP here. This is actually true! Childcare by unpaid relatives in SA households isn't necessarily always very high quality. These grandmothers clothe, bathe and feed the kids but they're not watching them at the park teaching them to socialize, reading to them etc.

Having a well educated sahm could benefit the kids in that she will hopefully know how to care for her kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP here.

This is silly. We just think it is a shame to not take advantage of so many opportunities available to women in this country.

There is no "we". There is just you.

Anonymous wrote:Motherhood is amazing and life changing but honestly, children really really need you to be there the first 12 years of their life.

That's your opinion, nothing else. Why 12 years? Are you sure it's not 8? Or 13.5?

Anonymous wrote:Once they become teenagers they do not need a parent hovering over their every move.

Women need to develop a sense of identity aside from being a mom and a purpose besides being a mother. What will you do once your kid goes off to college? Once the hard work of 4 am feedings, cleaning poop and giving baths are over, a woman needs to find other means to occupy her time.

Oh you little thing you. Let's play ten questions. Before the women's liberation movement, before women in the workforce, pretty much since mankind appeared on this earth until maybe a hundred years ago, do you think that no woman on this planet has developed a sense of identity or had other means to occupy her time? So in your little mind, the only way to develop a sense of identity and had other means to occupy a woman's time is paid employment? Interesting. Are you quite sure you went to college? It seems that the entire instruction in history has escaped you.

Anonymous wrote:Why would you not want to develop your mind, learn new things, grow as an individual and as a professional? Don't you want to step outside your house in the suburbs and find things to talk about other than how there's a great deal on Jack Rogers at Nordstroms or how your 6 year old needs glasses?

Even more interesting! So the only way to develop your mind, learn new things and grow as an individual is through paid employment? So essentially, you think that the entire womenfolk of Pakistan, before the generation where employment was acceptable, has undeveloped minds and hasn't grown as individuals? And they all live in the suburbs? I'm trying to decide whether you're speaking out of ignorance or a simple failure of imagination.

Anonymous wrote:You're in the United States of America. You can be more than just a housewife. Don't you want to show your daughter or son that you, as a woman, can take an active role in your community?

I don't stay up at night worried for what you're missing out on but sometimes, as I am walking down the aisle at whole foods and see a woman who is clearly a SAHM, these thoughts cross my mind.

Lol no, you don't stay up at night worried about it, you just find time away from your personal mind development and ahem, GROWTH, to write moronic posts. And say idiotic things like "in America, a woman has a choice whether to work or not."

[Anonymous]

OP, let me explain why I became a sahm for a couple of years:

I had worked non stop since I was 17, all through college, no break between graduating and my first job; no fun during college, no real breaks as I used every free time working to pay for college. I don't come from means. As a matter of fact, my parents are immigrants from Asia; they worked blue collar jobs.

I worked hard to get where I was at. I had reached a pretty high level in my career, well respected, earning six figures. And all that work, no loans, making good money, saving a lot afforded me to *choose* to be a sahm when *I* wanted. I wanted to give my brain a break, and give my kids the luxury of having a parent at home when they got home from school. I never had that. I was a latchkey kid from about 7. I enjoyed not having to always be on the go, doing something physical most of the day rather than sitting on my butt: gardening, organizing, cleaning; taking my kids to the park after school. I did miss some parts of working; not making any money was really weird to me because I had been doing it for so long.

I'm back at work now. But, I am soooo happy that I had the choice to be a sahm for a couple of years. Those couple of years spent with my kids is something I can never work towards, unlike a career or earning more money.

I am definitely luckier than most because I could choose this path, but I also worked hard for it. I hope this has enlightened you a bit.

[Anonymous]

Hey, OP...where do you stand on breastfeeding versus formula feeding? Because I don't think we've yelled at each other about that today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting. I didn't realize that my time spent on the board of an organization that helps families in need in this city or the time I spend at my kids' school or the time I spend picking up my WOHM friend's kid b/c her nanny bailed or the time I take to help my elderly neighbor unload bags of mulch from his car is all worthless. So, I guess I should be running back my job at the investment bank managing HNW individuals' money if I want to really contribute to society. I worked hard for many years to create a financial cushion for my family so that we could CHOOSE to live as we do. I don't judge others. I am proud to be a SAHM and support my friends in the choices they make even if they differ from mine. Toxic people like the person who started this thread and some of the contributors are the real dissapointments. Figure out a way to make yourself and your family happy and leave everyone else alone.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP here.

This is silly. We just think it is a shame to not take advantage of so many opportunities available to women in this country.

There is no "we". There is just you.

Anonymous wrote:Motherhood is amazing and life changing but honestly, children really really need you to be there the first 12 years of their life.

That's your opinion, nothing else. Why 12 years? Are you sure it's not 8? Or 13.5?

Anonymous wrote:Once they become teenagers they do not need a parent hovering over their every move.

Women need to develop a sense of identity aside from being a mom and a purpose besides being a mother. What will you do once your kid goes off to college? Once the hard work of 4 am feedings, cleaning poop and giving baths are over, a woman needs to find other means to occupy her time.

Oh you little thing you. Let's play ten questions. Before the women's liberation movement, before women in the workforce, pretty much since mankind appeared on this earth until maybe a hundred years ago, do you think that no woman on this planet has developed a sense of identity or had other means to occupy her time? So in your little mind, the only way to develop a sense of identity and had other means to occupy a woman's time is paid employment? Interesting. Are you quite sure you went to college? It seems that the entire instruction in history has escaped you.

Anonymous wrote:Why would you not want to develop your mind, learn new things, grow as an individual and as a professional? Don't you want to step outside your house in the suburbs and find things to talk about other than how there's a great deal on Jack Rogers at Nordstroms or how your 6 year old needs glasses?

Even more interesting! So the only way to develop your mind, learn new things and grow as an individual is through paid employment? So essentially, you think that the entire womenfolk of Pakistan, before the generation where employment was acceptable, has undeveloped minds and hasn't grown as individuals? And they all live in the suburbs? I'm trying to decide whether you're speaking out of ignorance or a simple failure of imagination.

Anonymous wrote:You're in the United States of America. You can be more than just a housewife. Don't you want to show your daughter or son that you, as a woman, can take an active role in your community?

I don't stay up at night worried for what you're missing out on but sometimes, as I am walking down the aisle at whole foods and see a woman who is clearly a SAHM, these thoughts cross my mind.

Lol no, you don't stay up at night worried about it, you just find time away from your personal mind development and ahem, GROWTH, to write moronic posts. And say idiotic things like "in America, a woman has a choice whether to work or not."

Well said. OP lacks listening and comprehension skills, on top of being condescending and arrogant. Her mother told her this is the right way and therefore it is. She confuses brainwashing for intellectual growth.

[Anonymous]

OP, how about you worry more about you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a Pakistani immigrant in the United States and I love this country and the liberties I am offered here as a young woman. When I peruse this website, I am often shocked at the bitterness that seems to engulf most working women/moms on DCUM. Where I come from, women are not allowed to work. The woman's place is considered to be the kitchen and her primary duty in life is to bear children and care for them. This attitude is so prevalent that many across the country deem it unnecessary to send their girls to school.

Hmmm....are you ignorant or just a liar? Women not allowed to work in Pakistan, well hmmm, let's see.

Maheen Rahman, chief executive officer of Alfalah GHP Investment Management Ltd, Pakistan's most successful money manager.

Roshaneh Zafar, founder and managing director of Kashf Foundation in Pakistan in 1996, founder of Kashf Microfinance Bank Limited.

Jehan Ara , the President of Pakistan Software Houses Association for IT and ITES (P@SHA).

Kalsoom Lakhani, founder of Invest2Innovate, also known as i2i, in 2011m founder and Editor of CHUP blog, co-ambassador of Sandbox, co-chair for Blended Profit, and a World Economic Forum Global Shaper.

Maria Umar, founder of Women’s Digital League (WDL).

Sabeen Mahmud, the President of The Indus Entrepreneurs (TiE ) in Karachi.

Yes not allowed to work, poor things!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

Yup, right here is the entire "argument," such as it is. No other words necessary.

OP here. I disagree. Being able to provide for yourself, open a bank account in your name, being able to rent an apartment without needing a father or a husband to co-sign it for you. THAT is a privilege. Being able to go to a safe, clean office where you are respected and treated as an equal and allowed to voice your opinion and develop as a professional. That is a privilege.

In America, a woman does not HAVE to work. If she doesn't want a very UMC life, she can live comfortably on her husband's middle class salary sans the private school and the lululemon yoga pants. That she can do so if she WANTS to, that is a privilege.

Women historically were literally not allowed to work outside of the home. Now that we can, it is a privilege. To think otherwise is to be ungrateful.

Historically, you've been an idiot all your life. Not allowed to work outside the home? Who do you think did the job of maids, cooks, nannies, charwomen, laundry women, seamstresses, embroideresses, schoolteachers, hairdressers, nurses, my fingers hurt from typing already???? OH yeah I forgot it's not real work outside the home unless you run an investment bank. What an imbecile you are. Making stuff up as you go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

ditto this.
Happy people don't judge others. Period.

OP here.

This is silly. We just think it is a shame to not take advantage of so many opportunities available to women in this country. Motherhood is amazing and life changing but honestly, children really really need you to be there the first 12 years of their life. Once they become teenagers they do not need a parent hovering over their every move. Women need to develop a sense of identity aside from being a mom and a purpose besides being a mother. What will you do once your kid goes off to college? Once the hard work of 4 am feedings, cleaning poop and giving baths are over, a woman needs to find other means to occupy her time.

Why would you not want to develop your mind, learn new things, grow as an individual and as a professional? Don't you want to step outside your house in the suburbs and find things to talk about other than how there's a great deal on Jack Rogers at Nordstroms or how your 6 year old needs glasses?

You're in the United States of America. You can be more than just a housewife. Don't you want to show your daughter or son that you, as a woman, can take an active role in your community?

I don't stay up at night worried for what you're missing out on but sometimes, as I am walking down the aisle at whole foods and see a woman who is clearly a SAHM, these thoughts cross my mind.

I guarantee you, the woman you're judging in Whole Foods really couldn't care less what you think about her. How funny that you would judge someone you don't even know. You have no idea what she does or who she is or what her story is. Nor are any of those things your business at all. Perhaps you should stick to your own very narrow view of the world and how it "should" run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm from a South Asian family and NO grandmother is 65+ when she has her young grandbabies. Many are in their late forties or early fifties. My own mother has WOH my entire life and she isn't retired yet (my oldest is six) and I think many of our own children aren't going to be able to take for granted our willingness to retire young and take care of their infants.

The second point is accurate. Many families rely on relatives who were "SAH" (not by choice) themselves. They do not understand why anybody would do it because they don't have the same conception of infancy and childhood that has become popular in America, esp. middle and upper class America-- not yet. You don't see women from this particular generation talking infants through diaper changes, reading aloud to them, and participating in their earliest education. Their role is to feed and keep kids alive, in a way. And that sounds unkind, but it used to be a really hard job, and now it's ridiculously easy and you can do it while sitting in front of the TV all day, which is why it's hard to understand what the hell all the well-educated American women are doing choosing to stay at home with their kids.

And it's hard for American women to understand why well-educated South Asian women are willing to leave their kids with uneducated, poorly paid nannies or unpaid relatives, even though it's about exactly the same thing (I think): transmission of cultural values (at rock bottom prices).

+1 I think you explained it perfectly - maybe this is the answer that will get through to OP?

Okay, well I'm South Asian with a 2 y.o. and another on the way, and my mom just turned 70...so at least some South Asian grandmothers are 65+ when they have young grandkids. It seems like your post supports OP's POV more than it refutes it, but I posted several pages upthread that I understand at least some of the context OP is getting at and got no responses.