An immigrants musings on the SAHM vs working mom debate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

+100.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Um, maybe she had day care or a nanny of any ethnicity, or help from grandparents -- like all of us working moms? Crawl back under your rock, Trump supporter. You dishonor America.

Close, except I'm South Asian, liberal, whose parents grew up in a 3rd world village. I had a SAHM, and she babysat for many working moms of color for extra cash. (So my mom cleaned other kid's poop.) My point is that OP looks down on people who clean babies' poop, but won't tell us who cared for her own babies. I know her type - and find them condescending and arrogant. I mentioned the possible nationalities of her nanny (if she had one) because UMC South Asians in this area typically have Southeast Asian nannies.

OP here. Most South Asian families that I know where the wife is a doctor, lawyer or a reporter, their mothers live with them and care for the baby. The mothers are super proud of their daughters and help out by making food and taking care of the child. They don't outsource this unless hiring a weekly house keeper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Um, maybe she had day care or a nanny of any ethnicity, or help from grandparents -- like all of us working moms? Crawl back under your rock, Trump supporter. You dishonor America.

Close, except I'm South Asian, liberal, whose parents grew up in a 3rd world village. I had a SAHM, and she babysat for many working moms of color for extra cash. (So my mom cleaned other kid's poop.) My point is that OP looks down on people who clean babies' poop, but won't tell us who cared for her own babies. I know her type - and find them condescending and arrogant. I mentioned the possible nationalities of her nanny (if she had one) because UMC South Asians in this area typically have Southeast Asian nannies.

OP here. Most South Asian families that I know where the wife is a doctor, lawyer or a reporter, their mothers live with them and care for the baby. The mothers are super proud of their daughters and help out by making food and taking care of the child. They don't outsource this unless hiring a weekly house keeper.

But, but, then their moms have no dignity and are not contributing to society!

[Anonymous]

OP - you are so obtuse. You have no idea if that sahm you saw has a SN child, elderly parent who needs taking care of, a DH that doesn't help at home, does a lot of volunteering at school, etc...

I am grateful for all the educated sahm who do so much at my DCs school. I volunteer when I can, but not as much as some of those sahm do.

[Anonymous]

So basically OP, you rely on your mother to care for your kids (when she really should be enjoying her old age after caring from you) and most south asian people rely on domestic help (I know because i hail from that area too). No need to get on your high horse really then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Um, maybe she had day care or a nanny of any ethnicity, or help from grandparents -- like all of us working moms? Crawl back under your rock, Trump supporter. You dishonor America.

Close, except I'm South Asian, liberal, whose parents grew up in a 3rd world village. I had a SAHM, and she babysat for many working moms of color for extra cash. (So my mom cleaned other kid's poop.) My point is that OP looks down on people who clean babies' poop, but won't tell us who cared for her own babies. I know her type - and find them condescending and arrogant. I mentioned the possible nationalities of her nanny (if she had one) because UMC South Asians in this area typically have Southeast Asian nannies.

OP here. Most South Asian families that I know where the wife is a doctor, lawyer or a reporter, their mothers live with them and care for the baby. The mothers are super proud of their daughters and help out by making food and taking care of the child. They don't outsource this unless hiring a weekly house keeper.

But, but, then their moms have no dignity and are not contributing to society!



These are older women in their 65+ and are mostly in retirement. Or they are from an older generation where all they knew to do was care for babies and keep the house clean.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

ditto this.
Happy people don't judge others. Period.

OP here.

This is silly. We just think it is a shame to not take advantage of so many opportunities available to women in this country. Motherhood is amazing and life changing but honestly, children really really need you to be there the first 12 years of their life. Once they become teenagers they do not need a parent hovering over their every move. Women need to develop a sense of identity aside from being a mom and a purpose besides being a mother. What will you do once your kid goes off to college? Once the hard work of 4 am feedings, cleaning poop and giving baths are over, a woman needs to find other means to occupy her time.

Why would you not want to develop your mind, learn new things, grow as an individual and as a professional? Don't you want to step outside your house in the suburbs and find things to talk about other than how there's a great deal on Jack Rogers at Nordstroms or how your 6 year old needs glasses?

You're in the United States of America. You can be more than just a housewife. Don't you want to show your daughter or son that you, as a woman, can take an active role in your community?

I don't stay up at night worried for what you're missing out on but sometimes, as I am walking down the aisle at whole foods and see a woman who is clearly a SAHM, these thoughts cross my mind.

And it's a shame that you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to understand that all people are not you and all people do not want to be you.

It's also a shame that you're so judgmental about the choices other people make and in such a blanket statement type of way. 'All SAHMs are poop cleaners, with no intellectual use, that only go shopping and don't contribute to society'. 'I don't get it'... just my sahm/wohm debate musings, cue fake smile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

ditto this.
Happy people don't judge others. Period.

OP here.

This is silly. We just think it is a shame to not take advantage of so many opportunities available to women in this country. Motherhood is amazing and life changing but honestly, children really really need you to be there the first 12 years of their life. Once they become teenagers they do not need a parent hovering over their every move. Women need to develop a sense of identity aside from being a mom and a purpose besides being a mother. What will you do once your kid goes off to college? Once the hard work of 4 am feedings, cleaning poop and giving baths are over, a woman needs to find other means to occupy her time.

Why would you not want to develop your mind, learn new things, grow as an individual and as a professional? Don't you want to step outside your house in the suburbs and find things to talk about other than how there's a great deal on Jack Rogers at Nordstroms or how your 6 year old needs glasses?

You're in the United States of America. You can be more than just a housewife. Don't you want to show your daughter or son that you, as a woman, can take an active role in your community?

I don't stay up at night worried for what you're missing out on but sometimes, as I am walking down the aisle at whole foods and see a woman who is clearly a SAHM, these thoughts cross my mind.

And it's a shame that you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to understand that all people are not you and all people do not want to be you.

It's also a shame that you're so judgmental about the choices other people make and in such a blanket statement type of way. 'All SAHMs are poop cleaners, with no intellectual use, that only go shopping and don't contribute to society'. 'I don't get it'... just my sahm/wohm debate musings, cue fake smile.

Why are you being so defensive? I'm asking an honest question. You sound like a 13 year old, " I can do what I want! Whaaa! Whaaa!"

Of course you can do what you want. I presume you're a grown woman! I'm just confused and saddened that you're giving up so much so much. I just want an honest response about why you chose this path among so many other viable alternatives.

[Anonymous]

Interesting. I didn't realize that my time spent on the board of an organization that helps families in need in this city or the time I spend at my kids' school or the time I spend picking up my WOHM friend's kid b/c her nanny bailed or the time I take to help my elderly neighbor unload bags of mulch from his car is all worthless. So, I guess I should be running back my job at the investment bank managing HNW individuals' money if I want to really contribute to society. I worked hard for many years to create a financial cushion for my family so that we could CHOOSE to live as we do. I don't judge others. I am proud to be a SAHM and support my friends in the choices they make even if they differ from mine. Toxic people like the person who started this thread and some of the contributors are the real dissapointments. Figure out a way to make yourself and your family happy and leave everyone else alone.

[Anonymous]

Plus servants in your counry are treated like crap, practically slaves and so your brethren back home can afford to have the life of leisure, going to tea parties and gossiping. Many SAHMs actually do the WORK of servants. I just got back inside after digging trenches in my back yard. Covered in mud, I am. Next, I"ll go back to painting a bedroom, something your delicate hands no doubt have never done. Go back to your cold, dark office now and enjoy your crappy cup of tea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

ditto this.
Happy people don't judge others. Period.

OP here.

This is silly. We just think it is a shame to not take advantage of so many opportunities available to women in this country. Motherhood is amazing and life changing but honestly, children really really need you to be there the first 12 years of their life. Once they become teenagers they do not need a parent hovering over their every move. Women need to develop a sense of identity aside from being a mom and a purpose besides being a mother. What will you do once your kid goes off to college? Once the hard work of 4 am feedings, cleaning poop and giving baths are over, a woman needs to find other means to occupy her time.

Why would you not want to develop your mind, learn new things, grow as an individual and as a professional? Don't you want to step outside your house in the suburbs and find things to talk about other than how there's a great deal on Jack Rogers at Nordstroms or how your 6 year old needs glasses?

You're in the United States of America. You can be more than just a housewife. Don't you want to show your daughter or son that you, as a woman, can take an active role in your community?

I don't stay up at night worried for what you're missing out on but sometimes, as I am walking down the aisle at whole foods and see a woman who is clearly a SAHM, these thoughts cross my mind.

And it's a shame that you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to understand that all people are not you and all people do not want to be you.

It's also a shame that you're so judgmental about the choices other people make and in such a blanket statement type of way. 'All SAHMs are poop cleaners, with no intellectual use, that only go shopping and don't contribute to society'. 'I don't get it'... just my sahm/wohm debate musings, cue fake smile.

Why are you being so defensive? I'm asking an honest question. You sound like a 13 year old, " I can do what I want! Whaaa! Whaaa!"

Of course you can do what you want. I presume you're a grown woman! I'm just confused and saddened that you're giving up so much so much. I just want an honest response about why you chose this path among so many other viable alternatives.

You're not asking an honest question. You have already come up with the only right possible answer in your mind and you've started this thread to stir the pot.

If you really wanted to understand, you would have already been able to come up with some reasons why people choose differently than you from the numerous posts already on this thread.

Don't you have some incredibly important job that you are supposed to be doing as your contribution to society right now? Why are you still on DCUM?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

[phone]

Don't even bother trying to reason with American SAHM. They use some flawed logic to justify their decision to be a SAH. To live in a highly advanced nation and chose to be less productive is just stupidity. I still think the reason for this decision is laziness. No sugar coating this. It's pure laziness. When it's divorce time they seemed surprised by the outcome when the husband takes everything.

Btw: I'm an American born and raised and fortunate to have travelled the world and witness the economical challenges women face in various parts of the world. I'm fortunate to be able to work and provide for myself and family.

Children are children for a very short time. SAHMs can always begin a career. Hell, many working adults change their careers mid-way through life.

If handing off my 6 week old to a daycare/nanny equals me being less productive at some office job, consider me less productive.

Go to the Jobs and Careers forum and read all the posts from career SAHMs who are now trying to enter the workforce and finding no meaningful work except per-hour admin drudgery.

And while you're there, check out all the posts from miserable WOHMs desperately seeking advice on how to maximize that one or two hours per day they have with their children. Or asking how they could manage to cut back their hours so their lives are a tiny bit less chaotic and stressful. Yep, being a WOHM is pure utopian bliss! :lol:

No one is saying it's a bliss. This still doesn't mean that "SAHMs can always begin a career."

Blah, blah...some of us WAH. It's pretty much the best of both worlds. I wish people would put this energy into creating more flexible work schedules for parents of both genders vs a bunch of women fighting with one another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


Why are you being so defensive? I'm asking an honest question. You sound like a 13 year old, " I can do what I want! Whaaa! Whaaa!"

Of course you can do what you want. I presume you're a grown woman! I'm just confused and saddened that you're giving up so much so much. I just want an honest response about why you chose this path among so many other viable alternatives.

People have given you lots of honest reasons. You seem to look at spending some time at home as all on the "giving up" side. I looked at my years at home as what I gained was worth a lot more to me than what I gave up. I actually enjoyed being the one caring for my babies and toddlers. I enjoyed being able to create a more relaxed life with DH since we weren't having to balance the demands of two jobs plus childcare and house responsibilities. Sure, I gave up income but a lot of that would have gone to childcare, house cleaner, etc. if I hadn't taken time off (I didn't have the luxury of a live-in grandma to do childcare. My mom is quite busy with her own career that she started after being a SAHM for 15 yrs).

Also, not all, and I guess not most SAHMs plan to be at-home forever. The norm among my friends has been to take 2-5 yrs off. I do have a few friends who are long-term SAHMs. They have either 1) 4+ kids with lots of activities 2) children with special needs 3) caring for a sick parent or 4) made a ton of money before having kids and are now highly involved in community service. Others may look to outsiders like SAHMs but they actually are working but managed to find jobs that are school hours and/or WAH. Try not to feel bad about that "SAHM" you see at the grocery store -- you have NO idea what her story is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hear, hear, OP. I am the daughter of an Indian immigrant mother (naturalized US citizen) who came to America in the 1960s to study organic chemistry. She was proud to work, even when she had difficulty finding jobs in her field because she was "overqualified." My dad is also Indian American and a proud feminist. I would never give up the opportunity to study and "develop my mind" and contribute to my family through challenging work, as you put it so well. When a country and people become rich, they forget what previous generations fought so hard for. I agree American women have the choice to stay home, and that choice is a good thing, but it does disappoint me greatly that so many well educated women would choose it. You may choose, but I judge your choice and find it lame.

Which is very telling, isn't it? Sorry your life is so unhappy you feel the need to judge others - who actually ARE happy.

ditto this.
Happy people don't judge others. Period.

OP here.

This is silly. We just think it is a shame to not take advantage of so many opportunities available to women in this country. Motherhood is amazing and life changing but honestly, children really really need you to be there the first 12 years of their life. Once they become teenagers they do not need a parent hovering over their every move. Women need to develop a sense of identity aside from being a mom and a purpose besides being a mother. What will you do once your kid goes off to college? Once the hard work of 4 am feedings, cleaning poop and giving baths are over, a woman needs to find other means to occupy her time.

Why would you not want to develop your mind, learn new things, grow as an individual and as a professional? Don't you want to step outside your house in the suburbs and find things to talk about other than how there's a great deal on Jack Rogers at Nordstroms or how your 6 year old needs glasses?

You're in the United States of America. You can be more than just a housewife. Don't you want to show your daughter or son that you, as a woman, can take an active role in your community?

I don't stay up at night worried for what you're missing out on but sometimes, as I am walking down the aisle at whole foods and see a woman who is clearly a SAHM, these thoughts cross my mind.

You seem vapid and vaguely trollish. How in the world would you know that a random woman at Whole Foods is a SAHM? *Clearly*? What is that supposed to mean?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Um, maybe she had day care or a nanny of any ethnicity, or help from grandparents -- like all of us working moms? Crawl back under your rock, Trump supporter. You dishonor America.

Close, except I'm South Asian, liberal, whose parents grew up in a 3rd world village. I had a SAHM, and she babysat for many working moms of color for extra cash. (So my mom cleaned other kid's poop.) My point is that OP looks down on people who clean babies' poop, but won't tell us who cared for her own babies. I know her type - and find them condescending and arrogant. I mentioned the possible nationalities of her nanny (if she had one) because UMC South Asians in this area typically have Southeast Asian nannies.

OP here. Most South Asian families that I know where the wife is a doctor, lawyer or a reporter, their mothers live with them and care for the baby. The mothers are super proud of their daughters and help out by making food and taking care of the child. They don't outsource this unless hiring a weekly house keeper.

But, but, then their moms have no dignity and are not contributing to society!

These are older women in their 65+ and are mostly in retirement. Or they are from an older generation where all they knew to do was care for babies and keep the house clean.

I'm from a South Asian family and NO grandmother is 65+ when she has her young grandbabies. Many are in their late forties or early fifties. My own mother has WOH my entire life and she isn't retired yet (my oldest is six) and I think many of our own children aren't going to be able to take for granted our willingness to retire young and take care of their infants.

The second point is accurate. Many families rely on relatives who were "SAH" (not by choice) themselves. They do not understand why anybody would do it because they don't have the same conception of infancy and childhood that has become popular in America, esp. middle and upper class America-- not yet. You don't see women from this particular generation talking infants through diaper changes, reading aloud to them, and participating in their earliest education. Their role is to feed and keep kids alive, in a way. And that sounds unkind, but it used to be a really hard job, and now it's ridiculously easy and you can do it while sitting in front of the TV all day, which is why it's hard to understand what the hell all the well-educated American women are doing choosing to stay at home with their kids.

And it's hard for American women to understand why well-educated South Asian women are willing to leave their kids with uneducated, poorly paid nannies or unpaid relatives, even though it's about exactly the same thing (I think): transmission of cultural values (at rock bottom prices).