An immigrants musings on the SAHM vs working mom debate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is nothing but a troll, folks. NOTHING about her post reads Pakistani origin to me. Nothing.

It does actually. From the elitist, wealthy, privileged class. That's why she considers child care merely poop wiping and feels that it's shameful to not work and that working outside of the home is having pride and is equivalent to 'flexing intellectual muscle'.

So she's the byproduct of leaving children with poorly paid uneducated caregivers?

No thanks OP! I'll do it my way rather than risk churning out more humans like you.

[Anonymous]

I married late in life and had children in my 40s. Up until then, I had developed a pretty nice career...blah blah blah. To be honest, during that time, I had wished I had what some of my SAHM friends had. A nice home in the suburbs, time to spend with their kids, freedom to do what they want during the day. Instead, I was traveling all over the place for my job, which I didn't mind too much, but it was exhausting and getting old. Once I had my first child, I hated leaving him behind each time I had to get on a plane. My friends envied me because I had this awesome glamorous job that took me all over the world.

Fast forward to now...I am a SAHM. Today I look at some of my friends who managed to keep up with their careers while building their families and sometimes think maybe I should have done that. But then I remember the stress and think, well maybe I am OK as is.

The grass is almost always greener people. But most of you are not willing to admit it. Instead you all come on here to taunt the other side in an effort to justify your lifestyle (which I bet a good percentage of you second guess -- whether you are a SAHM or WOHM.

Let's all just breathe people. Count your blessings, and stop the hate. It is so toxic and unproductive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I married late in life and had children in my 40s. Up until then, I had developed a pretty nice career...blah blah blah. To be honest, during that time, I had wished I had what some of my SAHM friends had. A nice home in the suburbs, time to spend with their kids, freedom to do what they want during the day. Instead, I was traveling all over the place for my job, which I didn't mind too much, but it was exhausting and getting old. Once I had my first child, I hated leaving him behind each time I had to get on a plane. My friends envied me because I had this awesome glamorous job that took me all over the world.

Fast forward to now...I am a SAHM. Today I look at some of my friends who managed to keep up with their careers while building their families and sometimes think maybe I should have done that. But then I remember the stress and think, well maybe I am OK as is.

The grass is almost always greener people. But most of you are not willing to admit it. Instead you all come on here to taunt the other side in an effort to justify your lifestyle (which I bet a good percentage of you second guess -- whether you are a SAHM or WOHM.

Let's all just breathe people. Count your blessings, and stop the hate. It is so toxic and unproductive.

Nice. Thanks. I was expecting this to end with "and now I'm so glad I left behind my career." Nice to see a balanced, honest perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I married late in life and had children in my 40s. Up until then, I had developed a pretty nice career...blah blah blah. To be honest, during that time, I had wished I had what some of my SAHM friends had. A nice home in the suburbs, time to spend with their kids, freedom to do what they want during the day. Instead, I was traveling all over the place for my job, which I didn't mind too much, but it was exhausting and getting old. Once I had my first child, I hated leaving him behind each time I had to get on a plane. My friends envied me because I had this awesome glamorous job that took me all over the world.

Fast forward to now...I am a SAHM. Today I look at some of my friends who managed to keep up with their careers while building their families and sometimes think maybe I should have done that. But then I remember the stress and think, well maybe I am OK as is.

The grass is almost always greener people. But most of you are not willing to admit it. Instead you all come on here to taunt the other side in an effort to justify your lifestyle (which I bet a good percentage of you second guess -- whether you are a SAHM or WOHM.

Let's all just breathe people. Count your blessings, and stop the hate. It is so toxic and unproductive.

The OP would be well served by even a tenth of your maturity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I married late in life and had children in my 40s. Up until then, I had developed a pretty nice career...blah blah blah. To be honest, during that time, I had wished I had what some of my SAHM friends had. A nice home in the suburbs, time to spend with their kids, freedom to do what they want during the day. Instead, I was traveling all over the place for my job, which I didn't mind too much, but it was exhausting and getting old. Once I had my first child, I hated leaving him behind each time I had to get on a plane. My friends envied me because I had this awesome glamorous job that took me all over the world.

Fast forward to now...I am a SAHM. Today I look at some of my friends who managed to keep up with their careers while building their families and sometimes think maybe I should have done that. But then I remember the stress and think, well maybe I am OK as is.

The grass is almost always greener people. But most of you are not willing to admit it. Instead you all come on here to taunt the other side in an effort to justify your lifestyle (which I bet a good percentage of you second guess -- whether you are a SAHM or WOHM.

Let's all just breathe people. Count your blessings, and stop the hate. It is so toxic and unproductive.

Nice. Thanks. I was expecting this to end with "and now I'm so glad I left behind my career." Nice to see a balanced, honest perspective.

I don't think PP meant that at all...she seemed to be ambivalent about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is nothing but a troll, folks. NOTHING about her post reads Pakistani origin to me. Nothing.

It does actually. From the elitist, wealthy, privileged class. That's why she considers child care merely poop wiping and feels that it's shameful to not work and that working outside of the home is having pride and is equivalent to 'flexing intellectual muscle'.

Wrong. Those people all want their daughters going to the best schools and attaining prestigious careers. They're very driven variants of tiger moms.

[Anonymous]

I think "OP" fancies him/herself as some kind of de Tocqueville and started a thread and posted this on the College Board over a month ago:

This is OP.

I am not foolish enough to want to hold up Pakistani Education system as the model for the U.S. We are a poor nation with a lot of issues.

As an American, I have been through the American education system as have my children and as someone who is foreign born, I am able to objectively look at the way the American higher education system is a waste most of the time.

In America college is not an institution of higher education but an "experience" where 18 year olds go into so they can play and party and socialize on their parents' dime for 4 years. Most of the curriculum for the first two years is overpriced if not downright unecessary. Students spend the first 2 years finishing up various "general ed" requirements. In a sesmester, a student takes 2 or 3 major courses and the rest of it is overpriced fluff. Classes end at around 11 am to 5pm per day. For the rest of the day the student goes and sleeps in his overpriced dormitory and then goes and partakes in unnecessary social rituals such as greek life. There are parties full of underage drinking almost every night. Some children get hurt.

So students live in this strange bubble for 4 years and then graduate with 100k in debt or more. Why can't they just take classes and live amonsgt normal people instead of being on a "campus" for 4 years?

The whole system is designed in a strange way.

[Anonymous]

This is definitely a troll! Im Pakistani American - I've lived in Pakistan as well. Yes some don't want women to work etc etc but the picture she paints is ridiculous. A Pakistani woman just won an oscar for speaking out about womens right (yes it's the 'arts' as OP says but still). There are all kinds of women there. Shame on you OP if you aren't a troll. Don't paint Pakistanis in such a manner.

[Anonymous]

No one really gives a f*ck if you work or stay home. There are maybe 10 dcum users who want to have the same faux argument over, and over, and over.

Rise about it, and stop being a troll's puppet.

[Anonymous]

Above*

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one really gives a f*ck if you work or stay home. There are maybe 10 dcum users who want to have the same faux argument over, and over, and over.

Rise about it, and stop being a troll's puppet.

Agree. Why do people keep engaging in this discussion? It's done. Leave it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a trust fund and a great pre nup protecting my pre marital assets. I made the choice to have three children and stay at home, I won't return to full time work.

Most of my friends have chosen to SAH, and are happy with their choice. it's having the choice that made them feel grateful.

So you are not contributing at all to society, just living off the hard work of your ancestors. Bully for you!

Raising kids that are our future is not a contribution to society? Narrow view of the world.

Are the daughters the future too? Or if they grow up and "raise" their own kids, are THOSE kids the future? Only if they're boys?

Think about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

You are being intentionally provocative.

+1

Her remarks at the end of her OP were similarly provocative. Trying to sound confused and sincere while ending with digs and looking down her nose. Typical.

I was not trying to be provocative. I am trying to put it in simple terms.

I don't understand the desire to stay home. My mother always told me to always always be financially independent and never to be dependent on a man or a burden on your parents. I'm confused as to why western women desire to be provided for. There's no dignity in that. You're dependent on someone else for your livelihood.

Interesting that it doesn't similarly bother you that your children are completely dependent on someone other than their parents for their care.

We get it. You "don't understand the desire to stay home." You don't have to understand. No one cares what your opinion is. But thanks for sharing!

When your 5 year old goes to kindergarten, who are they "completely dependent on for their care?"

+1
We're waiting.

And the rest of us are still waiting to hear why it doesn't bother you that your non-school-aged child is completely dependent on someone else for their care. After all, PP is just so concerned that SAHMs are "completely dependent on someone else for their livelihood." Seems only fair she (and you) should be equally concerned about your own kids. But clearly the irony is lost on you.

Correct, I don't have any issue outsourcing some of my childcare. My kids are thriving, in a fabulous learning situation where they are cared for deeply and learn to be part of a team, learn from amazing women (and men!) with different cultural backgrounds, and run smiling to tell me about their day when I pick them up.

Does a switch flip at 5?

I can't believe this (once again) has to be explained to you. The question was asked in response to the PP who was so "concerned" about women being "dependent" on another. So that was reframed to ask PP whether she was as concerned about her own children being dependent on others for their care. Never mind. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

No, I don't get it.

If the question is whether I, as a working mother, am comfortable with my children being in the care of another capable adult (I wouldn't say completely dependent as I choose their care, supply their food and clothes, oversee their medical directives, etc) for part of the day, the answer is yes.

Small children are dependent on others because they're ... small children. Who are, by nature, dependent.

A SAHM, who is presumably a capable adult, being completely dependent on a man for her livelihood is not the same as a child, who is neither fully capable nor an adult, being completely dependent on another person for their livelihood.

How is that even a comparison?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

You are being intentionally provocative.

+1

Her remarks at the end of her OP were similarly provocative. Trying to sound confused and sincere while ending with digs and looking down her nose. Typical.

I was not trying to be provocative. I am trying to put it in simple terms.

I don't understand the desire to stay home. My mother always told me to always always be financially independent and never to be dependent on a man or a burden on your parents. I'm confused as to why western women desire to be provided for. There's no dignity in that. You're dependent on someone else for your livelihood.

Interesting that it doesn't similarly bother you that your children are completely dependent on someone other than their parents for their care.

We get it. You "don't understand the desire to stay home." You don't have to understand. No one cares what your opinion is. But thanks for sharing!

When your 5 year old goes to kindergarten, who are they "completely dependent on for their care?"

+1
We're waiting.

And the rest of us are still waiting to hear why it doesn't bother you that your non-school-aged child is completely dependent on someone else for their care. After all, PP is just so concerned that SAHMs are "completely dependent on someone else for their livelihood." Seems only fair she (and you) should be equally concerned about your own kids. But clearly the irony is lost on you.

Correct, I don't have any issue outsourcing some of my childcare. My kids are thriving, in a fabulous learning situation where they are cared for deeply and learn to be part of a team, learn from amazing women (and men!) with different cultural backgrounds, and run smiling to tell me about their day when I pick them up.

Does a switch flip at 5?

I can't believe this (once again) has to be explained to you. The question was asked in response to the PP who was so "concerned" about women being "dependent" on another. So that was reframed to ask PP whether she was as concerned about her own children being dependent on others for their care. Never mind. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

No, I don't get it.

If the question is whether I, as a working mother, am comfortable with my children being in the care of another capable adult (I wouldn't say completely dependent as I choose their care, supply their food and clothes, oversee their medical directives, etc) for part of the day, the answer is yes.

Small children are dependent on others because they're ... small children. Who are, by nature, dependent.

A SAHM, who is presumably a capable adult, being completely dependent on a man for her livelihood is not the same as a child, who is neither fully capable nor an adult, being completely dependent on another person for their livelihood.

How is that even a comparison?

Your nanny is dependent on you for a salary for looking after your kid. What does that make her? A working woman or a poop wiper?

Maybe SAHMs should start charging for staying at home. I am a SAHM and I look after the child of my neighbor. My neighbor is also a SAHM and she looks after my child. I guess that makes us WAHMs and persons who are contributing to the GDP of this country?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I am still confused about how the ability to work outside the home and earn an income started being viewed as a chore and a burden rather than a desirable exercise of ones ability be able to use your mind and intelligence and be financially independent?

All I knew was women wanting to be more than just housewives and poop cleaners for their babies.

In the first world, its reversed. Women seem to want to go back into their kitchens.

You are being intentionally provocative.

+1

Her remarks at the end of her OP were similarly provocative. Trying to sound confused and sincere while ending with digs and looking down her nose. Typical.

I was not trying to be provocative. I am trying to put it in simple terms.

I don't understand the desire to stay home. My mother always told me to always always be financially independent and never to be dependent on a man or a burden on your parents. I'm confused as to why western women desire to be provided for. There's no dignity in that. You're dependent on someone else for your livelihood.

Interesting that it doesn't similarly bother you that your children are completely dependent on someone other than their parents for their care.

We get it. You "don't understand the desire to stay home." You don't have to understand. No one cares what your opinion is. But thanks for sharing!

When your 5 year old goes to kindergarten, who are they "completely dependent on for their care?"

+1
We're waiting.

And the rest of us are still waiting to hear why it doesn't bother you that your non-school-aged child is completely dependent on someone else for their care. After all, PP is just so concerned that SAHMs are "completely dependent on someone else for their livelihood." Seems only fair she (and you) should be equally concerned about your own kids. But clearly the irony is lost on you.

Correct, I don't have any issue outsourcing some of my childcare. My kids are thriving, in a fabulous learning situation where they are cared for deeply and learn to be part of a team, learn from amazing women (and men!) with different cultural backgrounds, and run smiling to tell me about their day when I pick them up.

Does a switch flip at 5?

I can't believe this (once again) has to be explained to you. The question was asked in response to the PP who was so "concerned" about women being "dependent" on another. So that was reframed to ask PP whether she was as concerned about her own children being dependent on others for their care. Never mind. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

No, I don't get it.

If the question is whether I, as a working mother, am comfortable with my children being in the care of another capable adult (I wouldn't say completely dependent as I choose their care, supply their food and clothes, oversee their medical directives, etc) for part of the day, the answer is yes.

Small children are dependent on others because they're ... small children. Who are, by nature, dependent.

A SAHM, who is presumably a capable adult, being completely dependent on a man for her livelihood is not the same as a child, who is neither fully capable nor an adult, being completely dependent on another person for their livelihood.

How is that even a comparison?

Your nanny is dependent on you for a salary for looking after your kid. What does that make her? A working woman or a poop wiper?

Maybe SAHMs should start charging for staying at home. I am a SAHM and I look after the child of my neighbor. My neighbor is also a SAHM and she looks after my child. I guess that makes us WAHMs and persons who are contributing to the GDP of this country?

Your comment is irrelevant.

Comparing the dependent nature of a SAHM and a child is absurd (and, frankly, offensive to SAHMs, if pp had thought it through).