If I had know this was the case, I probably wouldn't have married you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are we just passionate people, two "high drives" lucky enough to find each other? I'm sure our temperaments are part of it. But what is much more important, what is MOST important, is that we know what sex means: its purpose, its message, its profundity.
If you don't know what sex is all about, you're going to miss the mark, sometimes badly. You wouldn't put sand in your gas tank, and similarly disastrous consequences follow from misunderstanding how sex works and why it is designed the way it is.
What does sex mean to you, OP? What is its purpose? Apologies in advance if you've already shared this, but I need to know where you are coming from to try to help you get where you want to go.

Sex is feeling that I still have a place in this marriage besides the 2 kids. Sex is a release and I'm horny. Sex is me pleasing DW and watching her lose herself. Sex is connecting DW and I since there is no us time anymore with 2 kids. Sex (happening) means that I did not just suffer yet another rejection again.

OP? I assume that is you answering my question--I'm the PP you're responding to.

Thank you for answering. There is a great deal of truth in what you say, but not the whole truth.

First, because sex has objective meaning, independent of your personal perspective, your wife's perspective, anyone's perspective. It has a design, a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual design. It's designed perfectly. We are free to use it as intended or not, but when we misuse it, it becomes a powerful force that cause immense pain.

Second, you only mention emotional bonding and physical pleasure and mental connection. You don't say anything about a union of two souls, or, even more important, about the possibility of new human life.

Sex is about bonding, pleasure, AND babies. Sex is a renewal of your wedding vows, every time, and it needs to had the same aspects: free, total, faithful, and (potentially) fruitful. If you cut any of those aspects out, your sex life will suffer.

Because then it becomes a session of using one another, instead of giving of one selves. No one likes to be used, and usin another human being is a detriment to the user.

Before you dismiss my position as ridiculous, just think about it a little more. If you took away any of those attributes from your wedding vows, that would mess things up, wouldn't it? We humans are body and soul. We express ourselves through our bodies. What are you sayin to your wife when you make love to her? "I need this, and I am taking it from you"? Or "I love you, and I am giving all of myself to you, of my own free will, nothing held back, come what may, only you, for as long as I live, and I know you are doing the same in return"?

The way you described sex is more a description of masturbation. Sex is so, so, so much more. True sex is so profoundly awesome, you and your wife would want it every single chance you had if only you knew what it could be like.

Simply put, sex is a reflection of the Divine. It is the way new human life comes into being. It unites two separate people into one, and if they are healthy and it's the right day of the month, an entirely unique person can result. The creativity, vulnerability, intimacy, joy, comfort, pleasure, bliss, beauty...only possible when it is respected for its full, true meaning. Anything less is unsatisfying at best, grotesque at worst.

Theology of the body. Just look into it. There could be something to it, and look at where things stand right now? Not good? Why not at least consider that you don't have a full understanding of sex, and that once you do, you AND your wife will want to have it, all the time?

OP here. That was very deep. You obviously have put much thought into sex. I know my understanding of sex is very limited if I'm gonna use all that you said. Honestly, what you wrote was too deep and too surfer -like zen for me to get. But thanks for trying anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if he make the plans and hires the sitter, you're sure to put out that night? And if he makes the plans for every night, you're going to put out ever night right?

It would be a hell of a lot more likely, yes. And I am never putting out every single night. If DH expects that he should just go ahead and start an affair or divorce me now. Every night is not realistic for most people, freak.

This is the most honest answer you will ever get from the passive aggressive withholder. It's why all the "you need to change" and "it's just a bad time" and "things will get better" posters are liars, intentionally or not.

Your desire to have sex with the person to whom you pledged your life, foresaking all other, is your "problem."

They have no interest in, and therefore will never, change.

Freak.

Look, when you have a baby and your libido tanks, not wanting to have sex is not being passive aggressive. If your body doesn't respond it doesn't respond. I've been very open about the fact that I just don't have the desire I used to. People like me are not liars, and wanting to renew your whole bond - not just sex - is not passive aggessive or crazy. You sound like a Grade A jerk and I'm glad my husband is not like you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DH recently told me that I was not performing my wife duties because I do not have sex with him enough. The fact is that I fell out of love with him a long time ago, can't stand him most of the time and have absolutely NO desire to have sex with him. Then I think I should maybe give him a BJ just so he won't bother me for sex but I don't want to do that either. I almost want him to have an affair so he will stop pestering me for sex.

Are you staying married coz of kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Come on now. I wouldn't have sex if she was in PAIN!!!! Sheesh. We've had sex twice since #2 arrived. Both times were painless!

Sorry, OP. I just don't believe this. About 90% of women I know had significant discomfort - even if not PAIN with capital letters - the first times they had sex after childbirth, and certainly if the sex is within the first 2-3 mos. (And I'm betting I've talked to about 2 dozen more ladies about this than you.) Either your DW doesn't feel like she can communicate this to you or you aren't willing to listen . "Painless"??? Whatever. You guys have serious issues.

OK, you point may be valid IF you are my DW. Are you DW?

I cried from the pain the first time we had sex after our first was born, and DH didn't even notice.
I was so appalled and felt so disgusted and angry I couldn't talk about it.

Are you the same poster that is claiming that OP's DW was in pain too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if he make the plans and hires the sitter, you're sure to put out that night? And if he makes the plans for every night, you're going to put out ever night right?

It would be a hell of a lot more likely, yes. And I am never putting out every single night. If DH expects that he should just go ahead and start an affair or divorce me now. Every night is not realistic for most people, freak.

This is the most honest answer you will ever get from the passive aggressive withholder. It's why all the "you need to change" and "it's just a bad time" and "things will get better" posters are liars, intentionally or not.

Your desire to have sex with the person to whom you pledged your life, foresaking all other, is your "problem."

They have no interest in, and therefore will never, change.

Freak.

Look, when you have a baby and your libido tanks, not wanting to have sex is not being passive aggressive. If your body doesn't respond it doesn't respond. I've been very open about the fact that I just don't have the desire I used to. People like me are not liars, and wanting to renew your whole bond - not just sex - is not passive aggessive or crazy. You sound like a Grade A jerk and I'm glad my husband is not like you.

I think two different things are going on here. First, bodies change and desire can wane through nobody's "fault." Second, however, is how the LD spouse communicates that unfortunate fact to the HD spouse. If a decline in your spouse's effort or helpfulness isn't the cause of your lack of desire, then telling him that increasing his effort or helpfulness will increase your desire doesn't make a lot of sense. Under these circumstances, it's easy to create the impression that you're using his desire to improve your own situation without necessarily doing anything to increase your own desire.

That's why I think the LD should accompany these requests for increased effort by the other spouse with some fairly clear indications about what effort she is also going to put forth to address the problem. That way at least HD doesn't get the impression that LD regards it as just his problem.

[Anonymous]

OP here. That was very deep. You obviously have put much thought into sex. I know my understanding of sex is very limited if I'm gonna use all that you said. Honestly, what you wrote was too deep and too surfer -like zen for me to get. But thanks for trying anyway.

OP, they aren't my ideas that I made up. And they are profound, but simple. I'll try a different explanation.

Say that you are out on the town, at a bar after work, and an attractive woman catches your eye. She exchanges looks during the night, and then saunters up to you, takes your hand, and says "I want to have sex with you."

How would that make you feel? Flattered? Excited? Interested? Aroused?

OK, same situation. Beautiful woman. Clearly flirting. Comes up to you, gazes into your eyes, and whispers, "I want to have a baby with you."

How would that make you feel? Freaked the hell out? Disturbed? Disgusted? Frightened?

Why? You would be engaging in sex with this woman either way. The exact same act. What does this tell you about sex?

Sex means a great deal more than physical release, a connection, a fun activity. We convince ourselves otherwise, but its design remains the same.

It is crucial to understand that sex is not SOLELY for procreation, but it needs to be respected for its power of possible procreation in order to understand it at all. So IF you are going to make love to a woman, you should be doing so with the appreciation for her WHOLE PERSON, which includes her mind, her heart, her soul, her body, her potential fertility. If you are making love to anything less than her whole self, you are selling sex short. You are disrespecting her. And she will know that on some deep level.

This applies no matter who you are, what you believe, whether you want children or not. Because it's the way sex was made. It's our nature.

Now, if you start at the beginning, you'd say "free, total, faithful, open"?!?! That's asking a lot! I just want to get off! I'm not that deep or complicated! You'd be dismissive.

But work your way backwards. Look at DCUM. Look at your unfulfilling sex life. You KNOW something is missing. You KNOW there is something better out there.

The truth is the truth even if no one believes it. A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. Our human race operates on a lot of collective lies about sex. Sometimes I despair that things are too far gone to ever be righted. But my hope is that people will listen to that primal urge for something more, something better. Because we were made for so much more than using one another to get off.

This is especially true in a marriage. Because then you have at least the assumption that sex is all of those things, the physical embodiment of marriage vows. So when spouses lie to one another with the language of their bodies, in the context of daily interactions that either build up or tear down the wedding vows, the desecration of sex is that much more painful and has even greater consequences.

Is this any easier to follow, OP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
DH recently told me that I was not performing my wife duties because I do not have sex with him enough. The fact is that I fell out of love with him a long time ago, can't stand him most of the time and have absolutely NO desire to have sex with him. Then I think I should maybe give him a BJ just so he won't bother me for sex but I don't want to do that either. I almost want him to have an affair so he will stop pestering me for sex.

Let me guess your husband makes all the money. You are what the republicans mean by the 47%. Divorce, get a job and a cat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sex means a great deal more than physical release, a connection, a fun activity. We convince ourselves otherwise, but its design remains the same.
It is crucial to understand that sex is not SOLELY for procreation, but it needs to be respected for its power of possible procreation in order to understand it at all. So IF you are going to make love to a woman, you should be doing so with the appreciation for her WHOLE PERSON, which includes her mind, her heart, her soul, her body, her potential fertility. If you are making love to anything less than her whole self, you are selling sex short. You are disrespecting her. And she will know that on some deep level.
This applies no matter who you are, what you believe, whether you want children or not. Because it's the way sex was made. It's our nature.
Now, if you start at the beginning, you'd say "free, total, faithful, open"?!?! That's asking a lot! I just want to get off! I'm not that deep or complicated! You'd be dismissive.
But work your way backwards. Look at DCUM. Look at your unfulfilling sex life. You KNOW something is missing. You KNOW there is something better out there.
The truth is the truth even if no one believes it. A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. Our human race operates on a lot of collective lies about sex. Sometimes I despair that things are too far gone to ever be righted. But my hope is that people will listen to that primal urge for something more, something better. Because we were made for so much more than using one another to get off.
This is especially true in a marriage. Because then you have at least the assumption that sex is all of those things, the physical embodiment of marriage vows. So when spouses lie to one another with the language of their bodies, in the context of daily interactions that either build up or tear down the wedding vows, the desecration of sex is that much more painful and has even greater consequences.
Is this any easier to follow, OP?

OP here. Bear with me here, I'm dense. I don't see how embracing this (new to me) concepts of love will make my sex life more fufilling. I'm seeing all these theories about what love/sex is suppose to be. That's great. How does embracing these ideals get a LD spouse to "put out" more? If I subscribe to these ideal and get DW to subscribe also, will it mean we will have more sex? Or will it mean I will ACCEPT than less sex is suddenly ok and not be resentful? It's like a receipe to follow but the cake might not turn out liek its suppose to. You know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sex means a great deal more than physical release, a connection, a fun activity. We convince ourselves otherwise, but its design remains the same.
It is crucial to understand that sex is not SOLELY for procreation, but it needs to be respected for its power of possible procreation in order to understand it at all. So IF you are going to make love to a woman, you should be doing so with the appreciation for her WHOLE PERSON, which includes her mind, her heart, her soul, her body, her potential fertility. If you are making love to anything less than her whole self, you are selling sex short. You are disrespecting her. And she will know that on some deep level.
This applies no matter who you are, what you believe, whether you want children or not. Because it's the way sex was made. It's our nature.
Now, if you start at the beginning, you'd say "free, total, faithful, open"?!?! That's asking a lot! I just want to get off! I'm not that deep or complicated! You'd be dismissive.
But work your way backwards. Look at DCUM. Look at your unfulfilling sex life. You KNOW something is missing. You KNOW there is something better out there.
The truth is the truth even if no one believes it. A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. Our human race operates on a lot of collective lies about sex. Sometimes I despair that things are too far gone to ever be righted. But my hope is that people will listen to that primal urge for something more, something better. Because we were made for so much more than using one another to get off.
This is especially true in a marriage. Because then you have at least the assumption that sex is all of those things, the physical embodiment of marriage vows. So when spouses lie to one another with the language of their bodies, in the context of daily interactions that either build up or tear down the wedding vows, the desecration of sex is that much more painful and has even greater consequences.
Is this any easier to follow, OP?

OP here. Bear with me here, I'm dense. I don't see how embracing this (new to me) concepts of love will make my sex life more fufilling. I'm seeing all these theories about what love/sex is suppose to be. That's great. How does embracing these ideals get a LD spouse to "put out" more? If I subscribe to these ideal and get DW to subscribe also, will it mean we will have more sex? Or will it mean I will ACCEPT than less sex is suddenly ok and not be resentful? It's like a receipe to follow but the cake might not turn out liek its suppose to. You know?

Candidly, OP, I think few here will explicitly state it, but many of the people responding think exactly that: that the problem is that you won't accept the "natural" evolution of marriage to a low-sex state. Most of the posters here are female, and few females, with some exceptions upthread, really empathize with the needs of an HD spouse. Rather, they are concerned with being on the other side of this and are kind of lashing out. I think you should consider counseling, but be warned that counseling may simply clarify the fact that the problem is not solvable, and then you will need to figure out what to do. Don't expect sympathy here, it is not really the most friendly forum to someone in your situation.

[Anonymous]

I agree with 10:19. Your wife has sacrificed her body, her sleep, her mental energy, her emotional well to ensure the survival and well-being of your babies. Your sacrifice--several years of less sex.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read all the replies so maybe this had been covered.

Have you considered that your wife may not be that into you anymore? Is she a SAHM?

I know my mother never put out. She's a SAHM and hate my dad. She stays in the marriage because she doesn't want to work and doesn't want to rock the boat.

This is just my opinion. I think a lot of women are not being honest. I am a woman too and I was in a sexless marriage for years before we finally divorced. What I can't tell my ex is that I love sex, just not with him. I did not cheat and I am not dating. I just simply hate having sex with him because I don't love him anymore.

It is a very hard thing to say to someone. Women tend to dance around the subject and hope that men will forget about sex. I think you need to decide if this is an acceptable lifestyle for you going forward.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with 10:19. Your wife has sacrificed her body, her sleep, her mental energy, her emotional well to ensure the survival and well-being of your babies. Your sacrifice--several years of less sex.

I'd throw in that SHE wanted #2 but....oh well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all the replies so maybe this had been covered.

Have you considered that your wife may not be that into you anymore? Is she a SAHM?
I know my mother never put out. She's a SAHM and hate my dad. She stays in the marriage because she doesn't want to work and doesn't want to rock the boat.
This is just my opinion. I think a lot of women are not being honest. I am a woman too and I was in a sexless marriage for years before we finally divorced. What I can't tell my ex is that I love sex, just not with him. I did not cheat and I am not dating. I just simply hate having sex with him because I don't love him anymore.
It is a very hard thing to say to someone. Women tend to dance around the subject and hope that men will forget about sex. I think you need to decide if this is an acceptable lifestyle for you going forward.
Good luck.

I plan to ask her. No she is not SAHM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Come on now. I wouldn't have sex if she was in PAIN!!!! Sheesh. We've had sex twice since #2 arrived. Both times were painless!

Sorry, OP. I just don't believe this. About 90% of women I know had significant discomfort - even if not PAIN with capital letters - the first times they had sex after childbirth, and certainly if the sex is within the first 2-3 mos. (And I'm betting I've talked to about 2 dozen more ladies about this than you.) Either your DW doesn't feel like she can communicate this to you or you aren't willing to listen . "Painless"??? Whatever. You guys have serious issues.

OK, you point may be valid IF you are my DW. Are you DW?

I cried from the pain the first time we had sex after our first was born, and DH didn't even notice.
I was so appalled and felt so disgusted and angry I couldn't talk about it.

Are you the same poster that is claiming that OP's DW was in pain too?

No, different poster. But, I agree that most women find sex painful while BFing, at least for the first several months. The same hormones that allow women to lactate also cause vaginal dryness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with 10:19. Your wife has sacrificed her body, her sleep, her mental energy, her emotional well to ensure the survival and well-being of your babies. Your sacrifice--several years of less sex.

I'd throw in that SHE wanted #2 but....oh well

Oh well, presumably you agreed....