Spanking

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:As a psychologist I will weigh in that the studies that have been done are definitely clear that there is no benefit to spanking, there is also research showing negative effects. There are a few studies that have shown it to be less harmful - typically when it is common "in-group" practice. That is, when children grow up in households where it is common in that neighborhood/community/culture, it tends to be slightly less harmful. But there are definitely no studies endorsing the practice and decades of child psychology research suggests it does not include any of the components of discipline that we know works. Generally, spanking is a punishment not discipline - as discipline is intended to teach. Punishments don't typically work to change behavior - among adults or children.

Now yes, the research can't randomly assign kids to be hit or not - so we will never have 100% conclusive evidence - but the studies do work to control for factors like SES, education of parents, stress, and other things that could also relate to outcomes to try to limit the amount of other explanations for the findings.

Please, please don't hit your kids. As an adult, can you think of a time when someone wanted you to do something and if they slapped you or hit you, it would make you MORE likely to do it? Possibly only if you were then scared of the person. Seems like not the right reasons we want our kids to do (or not do) things.

+1

Is our role to teach our children, or punish them?

Both. ?

Why? What is the purpose of punishment (vs. teaching)?

? Human beings, especially children, aren't completely logical creatures. They are greedy, selfish, etc... Sometimes, you need a deterrent to make them not do something, like jail time for adults, and "punishment" for kids. Yes, we teach them to do the right thing, but without consequences, ie, punishments, some kids will not learn.

What constitutes a spanking then, for you?

Open hand, on the bottom, fully clothed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a psychologist I will weigh in that the studies that have been done are definitely clear that there is no benefit to spanking, there is also research showing negative effects. There are a few studies that have shown it to be less harmful - typically when it is common "in-group" practice. That is, when children grow up in households where it is common in that neighborhood/community/culture, it tends to be slightly less harmful. But there are definitely no studies endorsing the practice and decades of child psychology research suggests it does not include any of the components of discipline that we know works. Generally, spanking is a punishment not discipline - as discipline is intended to teach. Punishments don't typically work to change behavior - among adults or children.

Now yes, the research can't randomly assign kids to be hit or not - so we will never have 100% conclusive evidence - but the studies do work to control for factors like SES, education of parents, stress, and other things that could also relate to outcomes to try to limit the amount of other explanations for the findings.

Please, please don't hit your kids. As an adult, can you think of a time when someone wanted you to do something and if they slapped you or hit you, it would make you MORE likely to do it? Possibly only if you were then scared of the person. Seems like not the right reasons we want our kids to do (or not do) things.

+1

Is our role to teach our children, or punish them?

Both. ?

Why? What is the purpose of punishment (vs. teaching)?

? Human beings, especially children, aren't completely logical creatures. They are greedy, selfish, etc... Sometimes, you need a deterrent to make them not do something, like jail time for adults, and "punishment" for kids. Yes, we teach them to do the right thing, but without consequences, ie, punishments, some kids will not learn.

What constitutes a spanking then, for you?

Open hand, on the bottom, fully clothed.

Do you tell them beforehand that they're getting a spanking? Do you bend them over your knee?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It hoovers around 65% of parents who do across childhood. The big study that just came out against was a meta-analysis by 2 universitys looking at 160,000 participants over 50 years of other studies, publised in the Journal of Family Psychology. Points to negative short term (not effective) and negative long term (self esteem, learning and social) outcomes. Doesn't work for the now and hurts the future.

The onus of the evidence should be on the people who commit physical violence against their kids (or spouses).

Dear spanking-loving folks,

Can you please show us the well-published Randomized Control Trials that prove spanking works?

Thank you in advance

I can see in my own life that it works. Why would I need a study to confirm that?

By that logic, why do you put your baby on his back to sleep, or use a carseat? Why bother? Studies don't mean anything!

Car seat effectiveness is logical and can be proven both with empirical data and the results on crash test dummies. I suppose I could put a dummy over my lap and spank it, too, but I'm not sure what that would prove.

Funny that you expressed it this way. Have you read the research that shows children who are spanked have lower IQs?

Have you followed a word of what we've been talking about between the distinction between correlation and causation, or is that all Greek to you?

Now I'm curious. Are you saying you believe your children are stupid and that's why they require spanking? I wonder if the connection is that adults who spank are generally less intelligent and their children's low IQs are related to genetics rather than trauma?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a psychologist I will weigh in that the studies that have been done are definitely clear that there is no benefit to spanking, there is also research showing negative effects. There are a few studies that have shown it to be less harmful - typically when it is common "in-group" practice. That is, when children grow up in households where it is common in that neighborhood/community/culture, it tends to be slightly less harmful. But there are definitely no studies endorsing the practice and decades of child psychology research suggests it does not include any of the components of discipline that we know works. Generally, spanking is a punishment not discipline - as discipline is intended to teach. Punishments don't typically work to change behavior - among adults or children.

Now yes, the research can't randomly assign kids to be hit or not - so we will never have 100% conclusive evidence - but the studies do work to control for factors like SES, education of parents, stress, and other things that could also relate to outcomes to try to limit the amount of other explanations for the findings.

Please, please don't hit your kids. As an adult, can you think of a time when someone wanted you to do something and if they slapped you or hit you, it would make you MORE likely to do it? Possibly only if you were then scared of the person. Seems like not the right reasons we want our kids to do (or not do) things.

+1

Is our role to teach our children, or punish them?

Both. ?

Why? What is the purpose of punishment (vs. teaching)?

? Human beings, especially children, aren't completely logical creatures. They are greedy, selfish, etc... Sometimes, you need a deterrent to make them not do something, like jail time for adults, and "punishment" for kids. Yes, we teach them to do the right thing, but without consequences, ie, punishments, some kids will not learn.

What constitutes a spanking then, for you?

Open hand, on the bottom, fully clothed.

Do you tell them beforehand that they're getting a spanking? Do you bend them over your knee?

No and no. They are given plenty of warning about consequences, though. Haven't had to spank my kids in years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It hoovers around 65% of parents who do across childhood. The big study that just came out against was a meta-analysis by 2 universitys looking at 160,000 participants over 50 years of other studies, publised in the Journal of Family Psychology. Points to negative short term (not effective) and negative long term (self esteem, learning and social) outcomes. Doesn't work for the now and hurts the future.

The onus of the evidence should be on the people who commit physical violence against their kids (or spouses).

Dear spanking-loving folks,

Can you please show us the well-published Randomized Control Trials that prove spanking works?

Thank you in advance

I can see in my own life that it works. Why would I need a study to confirm that?

By that logic, why do you put your baby on his back to sleep, or use a carseat? Why bother? Studies don't mean anything!

Car seat effectiveness is logical and can be proven both with empirical data and the results on crash test dummies. I suppose I could put a dummy over my lap and spank it, too, but I'm not sure what that would prove.

Funny that you expressed it this way. Have you read the research that shows children who are spanked have lower IQs?

Have you followed a word of what we've been talking about between the distinction between correlation and causation, or is that all Greek to you?

Now I'm curious. Are you saying you believe your children are stupid and that's why they require spanking? I wonder if the connection is that adults who spank are generally less intelligent and their children's low IQs are related to genetics rather than trauma?

Spanking is an effective punishment, and it is perfectly acceptable used sparingly. Sadly, there's a significant correlation between those living in poverty, which correlates with lower IQs in both parents and children, and those who are unduly harsh and corrective in their childrearing practices, and this often includes excessive and too-frequent use of corporal punishment.

Better now?

[Anonymous]

It's not perfectly acceptable though. It's not acceptable to me, to counselors and psychologists or to well-adjusted, educated adults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's not perfectly acceptable though. It's not acceptable to me, to counselors and psychologists or to well-adjusted, educated adults.

Well, I'm well-adjusted and educated.

Anyway, you might be interested in these results:

https://www.aap.org/en-us/professional-resources/Research/pages/PS38_Executive_Summary_AttitudesandCounselingonCorporalPunishmentintheHome.aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR:+No+local+token

Less than one-third of pediatricians are opposed to spanking under any circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not perfectly acceptable though. It's not acceptable to me, to counselors and psychologists or to well-adjusted, educated adults.

Well, I'm well-adjusted and educated.

Anyway, you might be interested in these results:

https://www.aap.org/en-us/professional-resources/Research/pages/PS38_Executive_Summary_AttitudesandCounselingonCorporalPunishmentintheHome.aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR:+No+local+token

Less than one-third of pediatricians are opposed to spanking under any circumstances.

I'd be interested on how that breaks down in how recently and where they trained. At any rate, you are legally free to spank your children and have misguided and sophomoric opinions re:the scientific literature and others of us, in classic dcum fashion, are free to feel sorry for your children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not perfectly acceptable though. It's not acceptable to me, to counselors and psychologists or to well-adjusted, educated adults.

Well, I'm well-adjusted and educated.

Anyway, you might be interested in these results:

https://www.aap.org/en-us/professional-resources/Research/pages/PS38_Executive_Summary_AttitudesandCounselingonCorporalPunishmentintheHome.aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR:+No+local+token

Less than one-third of pediatricians are opposed to spanking under any circumstances.

I'd be interested on how that breaks down in how recently and where they trained. At any rate, you are legally free to spank your children and have misguided and sophomoric opinions re:the scientific literature and others of us, in classic dcum fashion, are free to feel sorry for your children.

Please explain why my criticisms of the scientific literature are misguided.

[Anonymous]

I seriously don't care if other parents spank, but I never will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not perfectly acceptable though. It's not acceptable to me, to counselors and psychologists or to well-adjusted, educated adults.

Well, I'm well-adjusted and educated.

Anyway, you might be interested in these results:

https://www.aap.org/en-us/professional-resources/Research/pages/PS38_Executive_Summary_AttitudesandCounselingonCorporalPunishmentintheHome.aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR:+No+local+token

Less than one-third of pediatricians are opposed to spanking under any circumstances.

Those are results of a survey from 1998. Do you think it's possible the results would be different today? In 1998, a majority of Americans believed same-sex marriage was immoral and should be illegal.

[Anonymous]

Hitting an adult is illegal, why is hitting a child ok? What does that teach? For them to hit?
Believe me, there are times I want to when my son is not listening but then I look at him and the thought of anyone especially me hurting him becomes unthinkable. Take the higher and possibly harder road and teach not spank.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Civil poster here and since we are having an honest and civil discussion, where I'm swearing up and down why I'm right that spanking is not ideal and carries big time potential to harm kids, I absolutely need to admit that I have one child that I really do struggle with his behavior sometimes. I absolutely do think sometimes that "a good spanking" would end this ceaseless back and forth over the relentless onslaught of parenting a strong-willed child. Must we really do this thing again where I tell him 15 times to get his darn clothes on? So I'll open that up to you. I was able to change his behavior by concerted effort at redirecting, immediate consequence (you take someone's toy, mom takes it off you and hands to other kid with a redirection. You push a child or misbehave, you come sit with mom for a few minutes when youd' rather be playing, you hit or bite? we leave immediately, etc) (BTW thank god neither of mine were biters!)

My kids are a little bit older now - one is well past spanking age and the other (the rascal) is still in the spanking age but on the older side at 7. Overall i'm really happy with the human beings they are becoming but there were many, many times i left a party feeling like i had the worst behaved kid there. And I bet if I did spank i wouldn't have had that problem. So I really do get why people do it, and I've simply made a different but perhaps also not perfect choice. I just have to think that one involves a big person hitting a child and the other doesn't.

Your comment is very civil indeed. I only take slight issue with your last line because that's kind of developed to still go for *some* moral high-ground. I'm betting that there were plenty of times when you used your advantage of physical size to enforce the "sit by mom" punishments or leave the party punishments.

The other question I'd consider is that would the overall happiness and peacefulness of all parties have been improved if one spanking prevented 15 other punishments or confrontations (or whatever ratio you suggested)?

To your first comment, I get what you mean, but obviously I do think I get the moral high ground, I never said that I don't think spanking is wrong - I've said all along that I DO think it is wrong, but at the same time I both understand why some people do it and certainly don't think that my parenting is perfect and couldn't guarantee that I'm not screwing my kids up equally (again, assuming that I'm right, which obviously I do, and you don't) in some other way.

To your second comment, I don't think so with respect to the peacefulness of all parties would increase if one spanking prevented 15 (or countless, sometimes) other confrontations, but of course, that's the question I DO ask myself - and I DO sometimes think that a "good spanking" would have saved some time and made me into one of those moms who just had to raise an eyebrow to get compliance. But, at the end of the day, I think that compliance would come with a cost.

Honestly, even if I'm wrong, feeling how I feel about spanking, it was always going to be the wrong thing for me to do. Because I wouldn't have felt right doing it, etc. If you're very confident, and you truly spank in this controlled way, than my guess is that you are probably doing better than most parents including many who do NOT spank but do yell (I do, but damn i try hard not to, yell) or even uber permissive parents who never teach their kid not to be an entitled jerk. none of us are getting it right, so I guess I'm just saying that - don't know - it's a big bright line for me when it comes to hitting or hurting. I think that is NEVER okay, no matter the justification, except genuine self defense / defense of others. But there are some people who go a step further and are super horrified by it and I guess I'm not one of those people either, I don't think it's okay, and yet as I said, I see how there are many crappy things that otherwise well intentioned people do to their kids every day.

There are options other than yelling or spanking.

It sounds like you would benefit from a PEP class to learn how to handle situations that make you so angry or exasperated that you want to spank.

http://pepparent.org/classes-programs/class-schedule/

I've been away from this thread for a while - work travel.

I'm not sure what I said that made you think that there are two options only, yelling or spanking or that I'm not aware of the resources out there - maybe you didn't read all of my post since I also gave other examples of how I managed my own (now older) children and their behavior, almost exclusively through firm boundaries, redirection, and engagement / building positive interactions. I have recommended PEP classes to some of the many parents that I work with in a volunteer arrangement - many of them do spank and they spank in anger and they yell, etc, because they have no tools at all. The point I am making though is that many parents do engage in positive discipline and it is not always purely effective. I am saying this as a person pretty darn dedicated to that approach, that it too has its limitations. I think purists don't like to admit that it has any limitations - many people seem to suggest that if you're doing it right it will work for you. Generally speaking, that method worked well for my family, but we still had MANY MANY parenting battles with our kids, and hey we aren't perfect, but we were pretty vigilant about boundaries and so on, and my stronger willed child was still always a huge challenge. Worth it, because he's a strong willed older kid now, and that will serve him well. But - my point wasn't that I don't know how to do something else besides yell or spank at all - i think you might have read what you wanted to read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hitting an adult is illegal, why is hitting a child ok? What does that teach? For them to hit?
Believe me, there are times I want to when my son is not listening but then I look at him and the thought of anyone especially me hurting him becomes unthinkable. Take the higher and possibly harder road and teach not spank.

hitting an adult is not illegal if it is self defense or you are at war. Hitting a child on the bottom is not illegal if it is disciplining. See how that works. It all depends on the circumstance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hitting an adult is illegal, why is hitting a child ok? What does that teach? For them to hit?
Believe me, there are times I want to when my son is not listening but then I look at him and the thought of anyone especially me hurting him becomes unthinkable. Take the higher and possibly harder road and teach not spank.

hitting an adult is not illegal if it is self defense or you are at war. Hitting a child on the bottom is not illegal if it is disciplining. See how that works. It all depends on the circumstance.

Hitting a child in any circumstance should be illegal. What does it teach? Your analogy and examples are just far fetched and bizarre.