What is a Tiger Mom? If you are one how are you different from everyone else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When non-tiger moms produce well balanced, high achieving, contented children, I will give more credence to their approach to raising children.

The kids of Tiger Moms that I knew as a child weren't happy. Happiness seems to be sacrificed for achievement, and that isn't worth it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The recent posts pertaining to Finland and the performance of Asian students is why we make so little progress when it comes to the quality of our schools.

Among the excuses offered include:

Finland is a smaller country and cannot be compared to the US, the homogenous characteristics of Finland, the holistic approach that Finland uses, Central America's proximity to the US and presumably illegal immigration from those countries, the need to fund education more than we do, the aid and involvement we have in other countries.

We have, of course, had extensive comments dismissing the superior academic performance of Asian students in the US as being the result of the disciplined and structured approach that non-Asian parents feel has a negative impact on children.

Of course there are other countries in Europe and elsewhere that are homogenous that don't do as well Finland. There are countries - other than the US - that are multi-cultural and again it is the Asian students who do best such as in the UK.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/feb/07/chinese-children-school-do-well

Funding is not the issue because, at least in the US, the funding of education per capita does not necessarily produce the best results.

There is somewhat of a consensus that the problem is the quality of teachers we have as evidenced by other threads. There is less of a consensus that the problem is with parents who are willing to accept mediocrity - as another PP said, a "C" is considered good enough. There is even less of a consensus that what is needed is for parents to be more involved and be the catalyst for raising their expectations for their children and to be more responsible for ensuring they do their part to make this happen.

Some of the attitudes we see are born of the belief that we do everything best and to the extent that another country does something well in the area of education, it is because their circumstances are not comparable.

Your point here is pretty incoherent. You are saying that we need to be more like these other countries and that posters are making excuses for why we can't. I'm the person who wrote the bolded part and I am also saying we should be like Finland. My point is that you and others don't understand what "being like Finland" means. You read about their high achievement and assume they are more rigorous but thats not the point. They have a great education system because they care about each and every child and will reach out and do what each child needs to succeed. We absolutely could do that here if we changed our attitude toward education. We need to stop denigrating teachers, we need to give schools the resources to reach out to children in need including wrap around services. We need to make a priority of the emotional and physical health of our children. I don't see anyone here advocating that, all I see are summer workbooks and extra reading. This is not the way of Finland.

[Anonymous]

Finland and China are both homogenous. Finland invests in its people, China invests in its government. Why do you think the Chinese come here? Its not because they are able to be themselves, or trust their government, for two examples.

In China, being "first" is what matters. These are not happy people. Why should they want their children to be happy? They are not here to experience life, they are here to take what their government can not give them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not at all impressed with the tiger moms I meet. They seem to resent the white moms. See some of the prior posts - the posts that would be called racist *only if* they were written by a white person. How on earth is that??!! Racism is racism.

Life is about more than rote memorization, workbooks and test scores. I happen to know that personally; and let's just say I am very, very in touch with what is currently happening at the top colleges and universities admissions offices.

Some people are terribly misinformed. They may think they know better, but it has been proven, they do not.

The section shown in bold suggests that there will be bias - or what PP would likely call "selectivity" - based on some rationalization against Asian students to prevent too many of them getting into the top schools. Well, that is already happening so that is not a surprise.

But it brings to mind something I read that pertains to the original tiger moms - the Jewish mothers - whose children out-performed the other white kids some decades ago and how the universities dealt with it to limit Jewish admissions. An excerpt:

"Way back in the early part of the 20th century, leaders at the big Ivy League schools were deeply concerned that people they considered undesirables were crushing the Ivies' entrance exams and becoming an ever-larger presence in the student body. Harvard's president Lawrence Lowell knew that a straight-ahead quota wouldn't be popular among his faculty. So he came up with a workaround by instituting a whole new admissions process for potential students — :

"Lowell agreed to limit the size of the entering class and to institute recommendation letters and personal interviews. Yale and Princeton followed suit; and soon came the whole panoply familiar to this day: lengthy applications, personal essays, descriptions of extracurricular activities. This cumbersome and expensive process served two central functions. It allowed the universities to select for an attribute the disfavored class was thought to lack — i.e., "character" — and it shrouded the admissions process in impenetrable layers of subjectivity and opacity, thus rendering it effectively impervious to criticism.

"Character" was vague and squishy enough that it could mean just about anything those administrators wanted it to mean. And what they wanted it to mean was Not Jewish. The leaders at the Big Three were aghast at the numbers at New York's Columbia University, which by 1920 was almost 40 percent Jewish. The number of Jewish students in the next incoming classes at those schools fell dramatically. Their plan to fix "the Jewish problem" had worked."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/04/08/300279224/how-stereotypes-explain-everything-and-nothing-at-all

"Holistic" admission policies were used to deny Jewish students admission and keep their numbers down, it is being done today to limit Asian students and was and is being done to enable black and Hispanic students to obtain admission under the banner of affirmative action and diversity.

It brings to mind the axiom: the more things change, the more they remain the same

[Anonymous]

OP Again-

I read Chua’s Battle Hymn book and I think that after reading it along with the comments on this thread - I believe the most fundamental difference between a traditional "tiger" parent and a conventional western one (in this case I’m limiting it to ones who work hard with their kids/expect excellence) is the degree/ value that each group places on their kids to ability to assert their independence. I know other people (tiger moms) have explained these concepts here, I’m just trying to summarize it as I think I am just “getting” it- maybe.
Traditional tiger “parents” emphasize respect and that their kids need to obey them because their kids don’t have the life experiences to understand the ramifications of their actions and they don’t want them to make bad decisions. Traditional “western” parents are much less focused on respect and encourage their kids to assert their independence and question authority.
I’ve realized that I fall as do most other parents somewhere in between. Even Amy Chua who wanted to be 100% tiger “adapted” somewhat.
I actually agree with a lot (but not all) of Chua’s philosophy. She’d be the first to admit she wasn’t a perfect parent. I typed a lot of words on how my approach is similar/ different from hers but decided not to post as it is exhausting to defend your parenting skills even on an anonymous forum.
I will say that for all the grief tiger parents get, western parents require that their kids participate in certain activities too. My kids certainly wouldn’t be involved in church/church activities for example if I didn’t require their attendance- in my case I require that they attend because in my opinion church instills important values. How many young kids would attend school, eat their broccoli etc. if their parents didn’t make them?

[Anonymous]

I understand your point OP. However, western parents do not tend to overbook their children in extracurriculars; to the demise of any socialization or emotional growth. To stunt either is asking for trouble.

[Anonymous]

I understand your point OP. However, western parents do not tend to overbook their children in extracurriculars; to the demise of any socialization or emotional growth. To stunt either is asking for trouble.

Are you kidding? Western parents are terrible with overbooking their children in extracurriculars to the demise of socialization and emotional growth. The only difference is that Western parents are doing a zillion travel sports and dance classes while Asian parents are doing academics. Our Asian friends' kids are far less booked than the soccer, lacrosse, swim team, basketball, baseball pack. From a socialization standpoint the sports groups are just as exclusionary as the academic groups.

Its incredibly hypocritical to look down on Asian kids for doing play dates with other kids in their music or after school classes while its perfectly OK for the kids on the soccer team to have play dates with each other.

[Anonymous]

OP- again.

I will add another thing. My daughter has been involved in a one-on-one activity with an Asian teacher for several years and I've just been amazed at how well this teacher has been able to handle her and this teacher is very strict but also a wonderful person. The teacher really emphasizes being respectful etc and I think it has done her a world of good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP- again.

I will add another thing. My daughter has been involved in a one-on-one activity with an Asian teacher for several years and I've just been amazed at how well this teacher has been able to handle her and this teacher is very strict but also a wonderful person. The teacher really emphasizes being respectful etc and I think it has done her a world of good.

Huh. My daughter also is involved in a one-on-one activity with a person who is from a particular country in Asia. I don't think of him as her Asian teacher, though. I think of him as her violin teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP Again-

I read Chua’s Battle Hymn book and I think that after reading it along with the comments on this thread - I believe the most fundamental difference between a traditional "tiger" parent and a conventional western one (in this case I’m limiting it to ones who work hard with their kids/expect excellence) is the degree/ value that each group places on their kids to ability to assert their independence. I know other people (tiger moms) have explained these concepts here, I’m just trying to summarize it as I think I am just “getting” it- maybe.
Traditional tiger “parents” emphasize respect and that their kids need to obey them because their kids don’t have the life experiences to understand the ramifications of their actions and they don’t want them to make bad decisions. Traditional “western” parents are much less focused on respect and encourage their kids to assert their independence and question authority.
I’ve realized that I fall as do most other parents somewhere in between. Even Amy Chua who wanted to be 100% tiger “adapted” somewhat.
I actually agree with a lot (but not all) of Chua’s philosophy. She’d be the first to admit she wasn’t a perfect parent. I typed a lot of words on how my approach is similar/ different from hers but decided not to post as it is exhausting to defend your parenting skills even on an anonymous forum.
I will say that for all the grief tiger parents get, western parents require that their kids participate in certain activities too. My kids certainly wouldn’t be involved in church/church activities for example if I didn’t require their attendance- in my case I require that they attend because in my opinion church instills important values. How many young kids would attend school, eat their broccoli etc. if their parents didn’t make them?

I am not a Tiger parent, I'm pretty repelled by it. So I guess you would call me "western". I made my children go to religious school and religious services and I also made them eat their broccoli.

My point is that this is way, way over simplified. And you, more than any other poster, has been playing into racial stereotypes. One on one with an Asian instructor? Does this Asian instructor know she is standing in for all Asians?

[Anonymous]

Traditional tiger “parents” emphasize respect and that their kids need to obey them because their kids don’t have the life experiences to understand the ramifications of their actions and they don’t want them to make bad decisions. Traditional “western” parents are much less focused on respect and encourage their kids to assert their independence and question authority.

I just want to focus on this one bit here.

When kids are really young, of course, you make 99% of the decisions for the kids. But as they get older, if they are never given some form of independence, whether that is walking to somewhere by oneself at an appropriate age, choosing their own friends, or choosing their major, kids will not learn how to make sound decisions for themselves without guidance.

I agree with you on one point: that they are young and don't have the life experience that parents have. But, some kids just have to learn on their own. No amount of forcing the kid to do it your way will make that kid learn. This is a tough one for me to deal with, too, because obviously as a parent, I don't want to see my kids hurt or fail. But letting them fail or get hurt (not life threatening) by the actions that they take even after numerous discussions why that's not a good idea will make them better people. Otherwise, how the hell do they ever learn anything on their own? You let them start learning this early on, in ES, with some things. By the time they learn this as adults, it's too late. The possibility of failure produces anxiety and a fear of trying new things.

In the working world, I see this in some young people...people who can't make sound decisions on their own, or second guess their decisions all the time because there is no one to guide them. As a Lead in my team, this makes me so frustrated that I end up having to micro-manage these types of people.

When you are dead and gone, you will not be there to guide them. As a parent, you teach your kids your values, morals, right and wrong, and then at some point, you have to let them go and trust that they will make good decisions on their own. Otherwise, you make them out to be robots which is why so many people state that this is the kind of kids tiger parents offend produce. You have just proven their point. And you want to be a witness to them making good decisions while they are still in your house and not living away from you in college because otherwise, how will you see that your kids are able to make good decisions? You can guide them, discuss with them, but the kid should be allowed to come to a decision about their lives or future without you forcing it.

When my DC got into HGC, DC didn't want to go. That was DC's immediate response. DH and I ofcourse really wanted DC to go. But we were not going to force DC. Instead, we discussed it with DC, had DC go to the Open House. After the OH, DC came to DC's own decision to go. Phew. What a relief. But if DC had decided DC didn't want to go, we were not going to force DC to be miserable for 2 yrs.

BTW, I am Asian, and I hold respect in high esteem. I definitely don't take attitude and disrespect from my kids (who are in ES), but I also value producing kids that are independent, bit by bit, as they get older. And eventually, when they are off to college, out of my house, and they are exposed to god knows what type of activity there, I will hope that my kids have had enough practice of making good decisions to do so on their own, when I am not there. And when they are adults, I hope they have the independence to go live their lives on their own (and visit some times), and not have to ask for my guidance in every aspect of their lives because I'm not immortal, and one day, I'll be dead and gone, too.

[Anonymous]

OP, as an older Asian parent, who has four adult children, I assure you that tiger parenting does not produce the listless, robotic progeny that some claim is the end result.

My children have all done very well by almost any definition and are well adjusted, independent, adults who are able to interact with just about anyone. They don't need me to advise them or get my consent before they make decisions.

I would advise you - since you interact with Asians - is to meet a few older children who have perhaps gone to college or are employed and see what you think of them and whether they are the withdrawn, diffident individuals, lacking in initiative that some are portraying is what happens to the products of tiger parenting.

The extent of stereotyping that I have seen on this thread is beyond belief. Some of it is plain racism, some are preconceived notions of what happens to Asian children and some represents just plain ignorance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I understand your point OP. However, western parents do not tend to overbook their children in extracurriculars; to the demise of any socialization or emotional growth. To stunt either is asking for trouble.

Are you kidding? Western parents are terrible with overbooking their children in extracurriculars to the demise of socialization and emotional growth. The only difference is that Western parents are doing a zillion travel sports and dance classes while Asian parents are doing academics. Our Asian friends' kids are far less booked than the soccer, lacrosse, swim team, basketball, baseball pack. From a socialization standpoint the sports groups are just as exclusionary as the academic groups.

Its incredibly hypocritical to look down on Asian kids for doing play dates with other kids in their music or after school classes while its perfectly OK for the kids on the soccer team to have play dates with each other.

.....as long as they are Asian, preferably......

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Finland and China are both homogenous. Finland invests in its people, China invests in its government. Why do you think the Chinese come here? Its not because they are able to be themselves, or trust their government, for two examples.

In China, being "first" is what matters. These are not happy people. Why should they want their children to be happy? They are not here to experience life, they are here to take what their government can not give them.

China is homogeneous? China? Almost 1.4 billion people, 3.7 million square miles, multiple languages, multiple ethnic groups, multiple climates, and everybody's pretty much all exactly the same? Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finland and China are both homogenous. Finland invests in its people, China invests in its government. Why do you think the Chinese come here? Its not because they are able to be themselves, or trust their government, for two examples.

In China, being "first" is what matters. These are not happy people. Why should they want their children to be happy? They are not here to experience life, they are here to take what their government can not give them.

China is homogeneous? China? Almost 1.4 billion people, 3.7 million square miles, multiple languages, multiple ethnic groups, multiple climates, and everybody's pretty much all exactly the same? Really?

Didn't you read the thread? The whole of Asia is homogeneous according to many posters here (both Asian and non-Asian).