Homeless Man Killed by Fellow Passenger on NYC Subway

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kill someone or push the emergency button to let someone know what's happening?? He picked to kill someone he should be charged.

Oh? If the homeless person punched a passenger, would the conductor rescue them? Would anyone, besides this Marine?

+1
and why should anyone wait to be punched before anyone takes action? Would you rather wait to be punched before someone helped you?

How do you know he was going to punch anyone? Oh right, you don't. You can't self defend against something that someone *might* do.

You actually can. You are not required to wait until someone attacks as long as your belief that you or someone else are about to be attacked is reasonable.

[Anonymous]

We don’t know the full story, but I’d be inclined to not charge the marine.

Firstly, What is the line between a nuisance and a threat?
Throwing things in an enclosed space filled with people (vs, say, a basketball court) would to me be be an escalated, actionable threat. There is a clear expectation of harm.

Secondly, can a regular citizen be expected/required to defend themselves and others in the LEAST harmful way to their attacker? I don’t think that’s a fair expectation.

We have seen cases of women being sexually assaulted on subway cars and multiple people choosing not to intervene. If we increase the responsibility burden on people who do try to stop offenders, we will only see more such apathy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because he was dangerous and needed to be subdued. Why wouldn't someone understand that?

He didn’t do anything dangerous

How do you know? We’re you there?

There have been several statements collected by witnesses, if you have been keeping up. Yes, he was yelling and screaming.

This is not a crime. If it were, I’d be entitled to choke out your brats when they have a tantrum in public. I’m honestly shocked and sickened by the attitudes here. Do we live in Minority Report, where people can be killed for futurecrime?

Not at all surprised it was a Marine who killed him. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I have read a number of articles about this and watched an interview with the man who took the video. In his interview (in Spanish with a translator), he did note that the man had not assaulted anyone (although you could argue that throwing trash at people might be assault). The witness did, however, note that he was frightened by the man. He also said, in a comment that I found very telling, that if the police had come five minutes earlier, the marine would have been hailed as a hero. I think the fact that two other men were helping the marine subdue the man speaks to the fact that they genuinely viewed his behavior as a threat.

Of course whether they went too far is the question, and it sounds like the force used was excessive.

I ride the NY subway every day, and encounter loud, erratically behaving people regularly. If I deem one of them to be an actual potential threat (and the vast majority are not), I move further down the car, or switch cars. Removing oneself from the threat is the appropriate, and usual, tactic.

The fact that you normalize the necessity to get away from people who pose danger is very telling
It shouldn’t be like that in a civilized country

+1 truly

DP. I think you have it the other way around. In a civilized country, vigilante action is not permitted.

And if we had a civilized country without nut jobs running around the subways threatening and assaulting innocent people, if the government actually maintained law and order, we wouldn't need vigilantes. But until then...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We don’t know the full story, but I’d be inclined to not charge the marine.

Firstly, What is the line between a nuisance and a threat?
Throwing things in an enclosed space filled with people (vs, say, a basketball court) would to me be be an escalated, actionable threat. There is a clear expectation of harm.

Secondly, can a regular citizen be expected/required to defend themselves and others in the LEAST harmful way to their attacker? I don’t think that’s a fair expectation.

We have seen cases of women being sexually assaulted on subway cars and multiple people choosing not to intervene. If we increase the responsibility burden on people who do try to stop offenders, we will only see more such apathy.

I agree with all of this. The Marine was clearly trying to subdue the unhoused person without harming him - but I agree that his impulse wasn't necessary. IMO, he would have been justified in using stronger force against the unhoused person to protect everyone on the train.

[Anonymous]

I have seen how some of the mentally ill homeless people act in DC, and assume they are just as bad in NYC. They can be extremely threatening and I would consider what the Marine did as self defense, especially in the closed environment of a train.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of hot girls on social media are asking for the ex-marine’s contact info

I know it's irrelevant to the topic at hand, but I love this. This just proves that most women admire protective men like the Marine, and want to know that men will stand up for them and protect them.

+1

[Anonymous]

Kill someone or push the emergency button to let someone know what's happening??

Do NOT push the emergency button if you are between stations!!! If you do, the train will stop and it's harder for help to get to you. You may be stopped in a dark tunnel with a live third rail and trains whizzing by going in the same or a different direction so it's super risky to exit the train. Every NYer knows that if there is a sick passenger, including someone having a heart attack or stroke, you WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE IN A STATION to push the emergency button

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Kill someone or push the emergency button to let someone know what's happening??

Do NOT push the emergency button if you are between stations!!! If you do, the train will stop and it's harder for help to get to you. You may be stopped in a dark tunnel with a live third rail and trains whizzing by going in the same or a different direction so it's super risky to exit the train. Every NYer knows that if there is a sick passenger, including someone having a heart attack or stroke, you WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE IN A STATION to push the emergency button

Huh?

The emergency button doesn’t make the train stop, does it? I thought it only alerted the train operator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If what he did was wrong, how should someone respond assuming the person is fighting/resisting and acting eratically?
I don't carry handcuffs, should we?

If someone is fighting you you can do what the marine did.

If someone is acting erratically you move away from the person. You don’t kill them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, Reagan, for nothing.

Trickle down economics doesn't work and neither did shutting down mental institutions.

This is what happens when idiot Americans vote for "actors."

Sickening.

Ronald Reagan last held office 34 years ago. If we need to bring back the days of involuntary commission to the state lunatic asylum -- and we do!! -- we've had plenty of time to do it since the Reagan Administration.

I am shocked, pleasantly so, at how many people on this thread are defending the Marine. Yes, he used too much force, in hindsight. Hindsight is 20-20. He's never been trained in law enforcement. He was simply protecting everyone else on that subway car from the lawlessness that is overtaking our communities.

It's absolutely tragic that Neely died for it rather than getting the meds and treatment and forced hospitalization that he needs. But it's not this one Marine who killed him -- it's our society who decided that he should be free to roam the subways and assault whomever he chooses.

What he repealed had nothing to do with involuntary commissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If what he did was wrong, how should someone respond assuming the person is fighting/resisting and acting eratically?
I don't carry handcuffs, should we?

If someone is fighting you you can do what the marine did.

If someone is acting erratically you move away from the person. You don’t kill them.

Great. When that happens to you, well, make your own choice. I choose to fight back.

[Anonymous]

Some[i] cars have an intercom button. It's fine to use that. But there are also true emergency buttons that stop the train. Do not use those.

The emergency brakes in every subway car are there for a reason, but in most cases, you shouldn’t activate it.

In fact, you can actually cause more harm by pulling the cord when it’s not necessary — just ask the people who were stuck in a train car full of crickets when someone (who thought they were doing the right thing) activated the emergency brake on a D train in August 2016.

Read on for the right time to use it and what to do in other emergency situations.

Why are there emergency brakes in every car?
The emergency brakes are accessible to the public for specific types of emergencies. In older cars, the emergency brake cords are visibly hanging with red handles, but in newer cars, they are covered. The cover has to be opened, triggering an alarm, to pull the handle.
***********************************************************************

If there is a fire, a crime in progress or a medical emergency, you shouldn’t use the emergency brake, especially when the train is between stations, the MTA says. Activating it in these cases would make it more difficult for emergency responders to get to the train.

The sudden stop also can cause injury, the MTA said.

“When you activate the emergency brake the train can stop very suddenly, someone could get hurt just falling over,” MTA board member Andrew Albert said.

So what should you do in an emergency?
In any emergency, the first thing you should do is notify the train crew in person or through the intercom, if there is one, the MTA says. You should then follow the instructions of the crew and don’t go onto the tracks unless you’re instructed to, as they could still be electrified.

See https://www.amny.com/transit/subway-emergency-brake-1-31424967/

I don't know whether the marine and the others had an intercom button available in this car, but LOTS of NYC subway cars do not have intercom buttons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If what he did was wrong, how should someone respond assuming the person is fighting/resisting and acting eratically?
I don't carry handcuffs, should we?

If someone is fighting you you can do what the marine did.

If someone is acting erratically you move away from the person. You don’t kill them.

Great. When that happens to you, well, make your own choice. I choose to fight back.

Great and you will be charged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If what he did was wrong, how should someone respond assuming the person is fighting/resisting and acting eratically?
I don't carry handcuffs, should we?

If someone is fighting you you can do what the marine did.

If someone is acting erratically you move away from the person. You don’t kill them.

Great. When that happens to you, well, make your own choice. I choose to fight back.

Then you belong in jail along with this man. I predict he will be charged eventually.

[Anonymous]

This guy is getting charged, I guarantee it. No reason to put someone in a chokehold for 15 minutes, especially with other men helping to contain the mentally ill man.

It was disproportionate use of force relative to the risk. No gun or knife was drawn.