Homeless Man Killed by Fellow Passenger on NYC Subway

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

I’m a Democrat and have never voted for a conservative or a Republican, but I also appreciate what he did and think it’s ridiculous that he was charged. I saw that JD Vance apparently tweeted something similar today and it’s the first time I’ve ever agreed with him about anything.

I’m a woman who rides the subway regularly and have personally experienced being in a train car with an unhinged person. It’s terrifying, and I deeply respect someone who is willing to be a Good Samaritan in these situations (because, as seen in this case, you’re liable to be villainized and even charged if something goes wrong). While it’s sad on a human level that someone died, and I wouldn’t actively wish death on him, much like the healthcare CEO, I’m also not shedding tears for this person - a violent criminal who regularly menaced and assaulted innocent people on the streets and in the subway.

I bet you loved what happened to ol George Floyd too.

NP but I feel similarly to the above poster , and no, not the same at all in my mind. George Floyd wasn’t actively raging at people and threatening to kill them in an enclosed space with no escape. Jordan Neely was. If I were on that subway car I’d have been so relieved that Penny was there to protect us.

Agree. And the police officer was or should have been trained to know his force was excessive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if this has been addressed, but the statements by Neelys father make my blood boil. He wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, he just “wanted to be seen”??? He was “harmless”?? I’m sorry but an high, angry mentally ill man threatening to kill me is assault, it’s not “harmless” or “wanting to be seen”. And now suing Penny for civil damages? If I read correctly, Neely was in foster care after his mother’s tragic murder. Where was his father then? Where was his father these past years as Neely was homeless, mentally ill, breaking the law over and over? Only rolling up to the gate now that he thinks he can profit?

Bingo. Maybe charges should actually be filed against the father for failure to raise Neely properly and his part in creating a menace to society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

Yes, I think many people will justify criminal behavior due to fear or frustration with a system that has allowed things to get out of control.

I’m the PP you’re responding to. In addition to being a NYC resident and regular subway rider, I’m also a lawyer, and I don’t agree that Penny’s behavior was criminal. I think it met the legal elements of self defense. I think the decision to charge him was stupid and a waste of prosecutorial resources, on the legal merits, and was likely significantly influenced by the fact that Penny is white and Neely is Black (which had zero relevance to this situation).

I'm not sure if being a lawyer is very relevant here. Having knowledge about BJJ is critical to determining if Neely was a threat. At the very least, you need to learn quite a bit before you can come to any reasonable determination whether the force used was appropriate.

It’s relevant because self-defense is an actual legal concept with specific elements, and in my view (clearly also in the jury’s view) Penny’s conduct satisfied those elements. In a situation like that, where you need to act within seconds to neutralize what appears to be a serious, imminent, and potentially lethal threat to yourself and others, and as a PP mentioned above, your body is flooded with adrenaline (i.e., exactly the circumstances necessitating self-defense), you’re not in a position in that split second to weigh all the information and make the most perfect judgment of the exact amount of force needed to incapacitate the person. Distinguish this from a case like the murder of Breona Taylor, which was clearly an unjustified and unreasonable use of force.

Here, Penny was very obviously not acting maliciously. There was a credible and immediate threat to everyone’s safety, he was acting in the defense of himself and others, and he acted to incapacitate Neely, which had the unfortunate result that he died. And “reasonable use of force” is something that’s easy to calculate after the fact, harder in the moment. Legally justified self defense doesn’t exclude the possibility that the aggressor dies. Sometimes it happens, and it happened here. There really shouldn’t have been charges at all.

Maybe you are a new lawyer? I say this because many people who have zero experience outside of academia don't fully grasp that there is a big difference between theory and real life. They also think they know more than they actually know. You read about a concept and are attempting to apply it to a scenario, but it doesn't really fit.

I have been a lawyer for 30 years and think the PPs description was accurate. And, as another PP noted, the jury acquitted. Maybe you could point out the parts you think are incorrect, or that don't fit?

Lawyer? That's half of the people on DCUM, probably practicing patent or real estate law 😭

Several posters have already given reasons earlier in the thread.

Sure. I'm not going to go back and parse through 80 something pages. Anyway, I'm not interested in what other posters think, I'm interested in why *you* think the PPs description and analysis, in your words, "doesn't really fit." To paraphrase Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting, do you have any of your own thoughts on this matter?

Seriously, what's the point. If you are too lazy to go back a couple of pages, then you have no interest in learning anything anyway.

OK, got it. You still are asking me to look at others' thoughts, and have none of your own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if this has been addressed, but the statements by Neelys father make my blood boil. He wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, he just “wanted to be seen”??? He was “harmless”?? I’m sorry but an high, angry mentally ill man threatening to kill me is assault, it’s not “harmless” or “wanting to be seen”. And now suing Penny for civil damages? If I read correctly, Neely was in foster care after his mother’s tragic murder. Where was his father then? Where was his father these past years as Neely was homeless, mentally ill, breaking the law over and over? Only rolling up to the gate now that he thinks he can profit?

Bingo. Maybe charges should actually be filed against the father for failure to raise Neely properly and his part in creating a menace to society.

I mean I wouldn’t go that far (slippery slope) but I don’t think a “parent” who let his son rot in foster care should be able to suddenly claim civil damages when he dies while on drugs and threatening to murder a subway car full of people. “Just wanted to be seen” my a**. If anything, he probably wanted to be seen by his father who apparently declined to take him in as a child whose mother had been murdered and let him be a ward of the state. In no universe should you get a monetary payout when your adult child, who you never raised or paid for or loved, dies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if this has been addressed, but the statements by Neelys father make my blood boil. He wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, he just “wanted to be seen”??? He was “harmless”?? I’m sorry but an high, angry mentally ill man threatening to kill me is assault, it’s not “harmless” or “wanting to be seen”. And now suing Penny for civil damages? If I read correctly, Neely was in foster care after his mother’s tragic murder. Where was his father then? Where was his father these past years as Neely was homeless, mentally ill, breaking the law over and over? Only rolling up to the gate now that he thinks he can profit?

Bingo. Maybe charges should actually be filed against the father for failure to raise Neely properly and his part in creating a menace to society.

I mean I wouldn’t go that far (slippery slope) but I don’t think a “parent” who let his son rot in foster care should be able to suddenly claim civil damages when he dies while on drugs and threatening to murder a subway car full of people. “Just wanted to be seen” my a**. If anything, he probably wanted to be seen by his father who apparently declined to take him in as a child whose mother had been murdered and let him be a ward of the state. In no universe should you get a monetary payout when your adult child, who you never raised or paid for or loved, dies.

You have to think that common sense will prevail, again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if this has been addressed, but the statements by Neelys father make my blood boil. He wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, he just “wanted to be seen”??? He was “harmless”?? I’m sorry but an high, angry mentally ill man threatening to kill me is assault, it’s not “harmless” or “wanting to be seen”. And now suing Penny for civil damages? If I read correctly, Neely was in foster care after his mother’s tragic murder. Where was his father then? Where was his father these past years as Neely was homeless, mentally ill, breaking the law over and over? Only rolling up to the gate now that he thinks he can profit?

Bingo. Maybe charges should actually be filed against the father for failure to raise Neely properly and his part in creating a menace to society.

I mean I wouldn’t go that far (slippery slope) but I don’t think a “parent” who let his son rot in foster care should be able to suddenly claim civil damages when he dies while on drugs and threatening to murder a subway car full of people. “Just wanted to be seen” my a**. If anything, he probably wanted to be seen by his father who apparently declined to take him in as a child whose mother had been murdered and let him be a ward of the state. In no universe should you get a monetary payout when your adult child, who you never raised or paid for or loved, dies.

You have to think that common sense will prevail, again.

My wish is that a judge reads the case and throws it out, with a scathing speech to the father. But, this isn’t a law and order episode, unfortunately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if this has been addressed, but the statements by Neelys father make my blood boil. He wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, he just “wanted to be seen”??? He was “harmless”?? I’m sorry but an high, angry mentally ill man threatening to kill me is assault, it’s not “harmless” or “wanting to be seen”. And now suing Penny for civil damages? If I read correctly, Neely was in foster care after his mother’s tragic murder. Where was his father then? Where was his father these past years as Neely was homeless, mentally ill, breaking the law over and over? Only rolling up to the gate now that he thinks he can profit?

Bingo. Maybe charges should actually be filed against the father for failure to raise Neely properly and his part in creating a menace to society.

I mean I wouldn’t go that far (slippery slope) but I don’t think a “parent” who let his son rot in foster care should be able to suddenly claim civil damages when he dies while on drugs and threatening to murder a subway car full of people. “Just wanted to be seen” my a**. If anything, he probably wanted to be seen by his father who apparently declined to take him in as a child whose mother had been murdered and let him be a ward of the state. In no universe should you get a monetary payout when your adult child, who you never raised or paid for or loved, dies.

You have to think that common sense will prevail, again.

My wish is that a judge reads the case and throws it out, with a scathing speech to the father. But, this isn’t a law and order episode, unfortunately.

Maybe he will get $1 for his loss which is about what he paid to support his son in his lifetime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

Yes, I think many people will justify criminal behavior due to fear or frustration with a system that has allowed things to get out of control.

I’m the PP you’re responding to. In addition to being a NYC resident and regular subway rider, I’m also a lawyer, and I don’t agree that Penny’s behavior was criminal. I think it met the legal elements of self defense. I think the decision to charge him was stupid and a waste of prosecutorial resources, on the legal merits, and was likely significantly influenced by the fact that Penny is white and Neely is Black (which had zero relevance to this situation).

I'm not sure if being a lawyer is very relevant here. Having knowledge about BJJ is critical to determining if Neely was a threat. At the very least, you need to learn quite a bit before you can come to any reasonable determination whether the force used was appropriate.

It’s relevant because self-defense is an actual legal concept with specific elements, and in my view (clearly also in the jury’s view) Penny’s conduct satisfied those elements. In a situation like that, where you need to act within seconds to neutralize what appears to be a serious, imminent, and potentially lethal threat to yourself and others, and as a PP mentioned above, your body is flooded with adrenaline (i.e., exactly the circumstances necessitating self-defense), you’re not in a position in that split second to weigh all the information and make the most perfect judgment of the exact amount of force needed to incapacitate the person. Distinguish this from a case like the murder of Breona Taylor, which was clearly an unjustified and unreasonable use of force.

Here, Penny was very obviously not acting maliciously. There was a credible and immediate threat to everyone’s safety, he was acting in the defense of himself and others, and he acted to incapacitate Neely, which had the unfortunate result that he died. And “reasonable use of force” is something that’s easy to calculate after the fact, harder in the moment. Legally justified self defense doesn’t exclude the possibility that the aggressor dies. Sometimes it happens, and it happened here. There really shouldn’t have been charges at all.

Maybe you are a new lawyer? I say this because many people who have zero experience outside of academia don't fully grasp that there is a big difference between theory and real life. They also think they know more than they actually know. You read about a concept and are attempting to apply it to a scenario, but it doesn't really fit.

I have been a lawyer for 30 years and think the PPs description was accurate. And, as another PP noted, the jury acquitted. Maybe you could point out the parts you think are incorrect, or that don't fit?

Lawyer? That's half of the people on DCUM, probably practicing patent or real estate law 😭

Several posters have already given reasons earlier in the thread.

Sure. I'm not going to go back and parse through 80 something pages. Anyway, I'm not interested in what other posters think, I'm interested in why *you* think the PPs description and analysis, in your words, "doesn't really fit." To paraphrase Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting, do you have any of your own thoughts on this matter?

Seriously, what's the point. If you are too lazy to go back a couple of pages, then you have no interest in learning anything anyway.

OK, got it. You still are asking me to look at others' thoughts, and have none of your own.

What a sad little man you are, trolling on dcum. People aren't going to rehash things because you are too much of a lazy ass to look shit up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if this has been addressed, but the statements by Neelys father make my blood boil. He wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, he just “wanted to be seen”??? He was “harmless”?? I’m sorry but an high, angry mentally ill man threatening to kill me is assault, it’s not “harmless” or “wanting to be seen”. And now suing Penny for civil damages? If I read correctly, Neely was in foster care after his mother’s tragic murder. Where was his father then? Where was his father these past years as Neely was homeless, mentally ill, breaking the law over and over? Only rolling up to the gate now that he thinks he can profit?

Pretty much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

I’m a Democrat and have never voted for a conservative or a Republican, but I also appreciate what he did and think it’s ridiculous that he was charged. I saw that JD Vance apparently tweeted something similar today and it’s the first time I’ve ever agreed with him about anything.

I’m a woman who rides the subway regularly and have personally experienced being in a train car with an unhinged person. It’s terrifying, and I deeply respect someone who is willing to be a Good Samaritan in these situations (because, as seen in this case, you’re liable to be villainized and even charged if something goes wrong). While it’s sad on a human level that someone died, and I wouldn’t actively wish death on him, much like the healthcare CEO, I’m also not shedding tears for this person - a violent criminal who regularly menaced and assaulted innocent people on the streets and in the subway.

I bet you loved what happened to ol George Floyd too.

NP but I feel similarly to the above poster , and no, not the same at all in my mind. George Floyd wasn’t actively raging at people and threatening to kill them in an enclosed space with no escape. Jordan Neely was. If I were on that subway car I’d have been so relieved that Penny was there to protect us.

Agree. And the police officer was or should have been trained to know his force was excessive.

Wasn’t Penny trained to understand excessive force?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

I’m a Democrat and have never voted for a conservative or a Republican, but I also appreciate what he did and think it’s ridiculous that he was charged. I saw that JD Vance apparently tweeted something similar today and it’s the first time I’ve ever agreed with him about anything.

I’m a woman who rides the subway regularly and have personally experienced being in a train car with an unhinged person. It’s terrifying, and I deeply respect someone who is willing to be a Good Samaritan in these situations (because, as seen in this case, you’re liable to be villainized and even charged if something goes wrong). While it’s sad on a human level that someone died, and I wouldn’t actively wish death on him, much like the healthcare CEO, I’m also not shedding tears for this person - a violent criminal who regularly menaced and assaulted innocent people on the streets and in the subway.

I bet you loved what happened to ol George Floyd too.

NP but I feel similarly to the above poster , and no, not the same at all in my mind. George Floyd wasn’t actively raging at people and threatening to kill them in an enclosed space with no escape. Jordan Neely was. If I were on that subway car I’d have been so relieved that Penny was there to protect us.

Agree. And the police officer was or should have been trained to know his force was excessive.

Wasn’t Penny trained to understand excessive force?

Pretty sure marines are trained to actually kill people, not gently restrain them. Also they are usually trained in using guns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won't date men who choke people.

Funny, I won’t date men who will stand by and do nothing as a violent sociopath threatens to harm me and others around me. But you do you.

Violent, drug addicted sociopath. Don’t forget he was high as a kite on K2 while he threatened that child and the other passengers on the train. If Penny wasn’t there, an innocent person would have died on that train. Possibly more than one.

Just like George Floyd. I wonder what Fox News and the usual suspect are saying about this incident. They are probably using the same talking points they used to describe George Floyd. He died of drugs. He also died from pre-existing conditions. He would have died anyway. Dude standing on his neck had nothing to do with it! haha Crazy what people will believe.

They are saying a man was killed for riding a subway. Ridiculous. Wrong again, just like George Floyd.

Huh? He's a hero for conservatives, not unlike Kyle Rittenhouse.

I’m a Democrat and have never voted for a conservative or a Republican, but I also appreciate what he did and think it’s ridiculous that he was charged. I saw that JD Vance apparently tweeted something similar today and it’s the first time I’ve ever agreed with him about anything.

I’m a woman who rides the subway regularly and have personally experienced being in a train car with an unhinged person. It’s terrifying, and I deeply respect someone who is willing to be a Good Samaritan in these situations (because, as seen in this case, you’re liable to be villainized and even charged if something goes wrong). While it’s sad on a human level that someone died, and I wouldn’t actively wish death on him, much like the healthcare CEO, I’m also not shedding tears for this person - a violent criminal who regularly menaced and assaulted innocent people on the streets and in the subway.

I bet you loved what happened to ol George Floyd too.

NP but I feel similarly to the above poster , and no, not the same at all in my mind. George Floyd wasn’t actively raging at people and threatening to kill them in an enclosed space with no escape. Jordan Neely was. If I were on that subway car I’d have been so relieved that Penny was there to protect us.

Agree. And the police officer was or should have been trained to know his force was excessive.

Wasn’t Penny trained to understand excessive force?

He received very basic training and it would be hard to believe that he didn't know that a choke hold performed with his level of training would possibly result in death.

This guy isn't a high level grappler. If he was, he would have been much more confident and transitioned to another technique. People with actual fighting experience know how to defend and usually end up doing much less damage to their opponent IMHO. But this kind of conflict was inevitable and I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if this has been addressed, but the statements by Neelys father make my blood boil. He wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, he just “wanted to be seen”??? He was “harmless”?? I’m sorry but an high, angry mentally ill man threatening to kill me is assault, it’s not “harmless” or “wanting to be seen”. And now suing Penny for civil damages? If I read correctly, Neely was in foster care after his mother’s tragic murder. Where was his father then? Where was his father these past years as Neely was homeless, mentally ill, breaking the law over and over? Only rolling up to the gate now that he thinks he can profit?

Neely was shouting death threats at random people on the subway car. Penny did the right thing.

And BLM is completely corrupt and horrible now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if this has been addressed, but the statements by Neelys father make my blood boil. He wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, he just “wanted to be seen”??? He was “harmless”?? I’m sorry but an high, angry mentally ill man threatening to kill me is assault, it’s not “harmless” or “wanting to be seen”. And now suing Penny for civil damages? If I read correctly, Neely was in foster care after his mother’s tragic murder. Where was his father then? Where was his father these past years as Neely was homeless, mentally ill, breaking the law over and over? Only rolling up to the gate now that he thinks he can profit?

Neely was shouting death threats at random people on the subway car. Penny did the right thing.

And BLM is completely corrupt and horrible now.

No one ever accused faux news types of being critical thinkers, but once you get past their anger, there is usually a small amount of truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know if this has been addressed, but the statements by Neelys father make my blood boil. He wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, he just “wanted to be seen”??? He was “harmless”?? I’m sorry but an high, angry mentally ill man threatening to kill me is assault, it’s not “harmless” or “wanting to be seen”. And now suing Penny for civil damages? If I read correctly, Neely was in foster care after his mother’s tragic murder. Where was his father then? Where was his father these past years as Neely was homeless, mentally ill, breaking the law over and over? Only rolling up to the gate now that he thinks he can profit?

Bingo. Maybe charges should actually be filed against the father for failure to raise Neely properly and his part in creating a menace to society.

I mean I wouldn’t go that far (slippery slope) but I don’t think a “parent” who let his son rot in foster care should be able to suddenly claim civil damages when he dies while on drugs and threatening to murder a subway car full of people. “Just wanted to be seen” my a**. If anything, he probably wanted to be seen by his father who apparently declined to take him in as a child whose mother had been murdered and let him be a ward of the state. In no universe should you get a monetary payout when your adult child, who you never raised or paid for or loved, dies.

Doubt he will receive any money, but I am also surprised an attorney actually took this case.