Can we have a rational discussion about going Greek?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a thread. Are you all so insecure in how you've parented and in the kids that you've raised that you can't let your kids make their own choices without judging other kids and other parents?

We knew nothing about Greek before our oldest went to UVA. Neither did she. All we knew was that UVA was a great school, it was in state tuition, she was happy to go there, and it had a Greek system.

I don't remember how we reacted when she decided to rush, but I do remember her stories about the process. She went into the whole thing very open minded and very confident -- she just figured she'd be herself, as she always has been, and see where the chips fell. More than anything else, she has a good sense of humor and was looking to connect with other girls who were the same way. So she didn't hold back, not even a little, and in the end got a bid to a nice sorority with good and smart girls, had a great four years, and has stayed friends with them. They've all become happy, successful, well rounded, independent, open-minded women.

Had she not gotten a bid, trust me -- she would have survived.

I don't understand what everyone's problem is. If you've raised your kid right for the first 18 years, you need to trust them to make their own decisions when they get to college, and not deride other kids who make different ones. If you're not doing that, you've either raised kids who aren't confident, or you're not confident in either them or yourself, and that's not good.

To me, the vitriol and defensiveness that I'm seeing here is really just a mask for lack of confidence.

I find the biggest lack of confidence stems from people who think they have to rush in order to make friends or have a social life. The most confident people have no problem not going Greek and make friends wherever they are, with people in their shared clubs/organizations/dorms/etc.

Again, you're making assumptions. What makes you think that that's going on with so many of them? In my kid's case, she just thought why not give it a try? And aren't people joining "clubs/organizations" partly in search of friendship? Why single out the Greek system? People do all kinds of things to find others with shared interests to make friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son had an interesting take on it. He’s had several fraternities reach out to him but he isn’t interested. In his opinion it’s A. Weird to pay for friends B. More about gaining social protection by subjugating your will and moral compass to a group and C Limiting as he enjoys bringing together different groups of people. My daughter had a slightly different but similar opinion that she didn’t want some other group picking and dictating her friends for her. She is shockingly beautiful so the queen bees always zero in on her to get her to join their cliques and she’s always rebuffed them, picked her own friends.

Both kids have a strong protect the weaker person ethos and can’t stand people who reject or pick on people to boost their own popularity. Greek life seems to attract people willing to follow not lead, and prey on the weaker people rather than defend.

I do agree with the not wanting to pay for friends. When I att need college rush was fall literally during new student week before clssses had begun. Kids had 2 days on campus then bam! Rush started. So no chance for people to make their own friends and those that had started ended up going different ways because they ended up in different sororities

Someone explain “paying for friends”. The phrase is thrown around all the time and makes little sense.

Is joining any organization where you pay dues (a pool club, a running club, a rec softball team, etc.) and receive a product in return “paying for friends”?

My kid saves money with their fraternity fees compared to the other room & board options…how is that “paying for friends”?

DP. Do the pool club, running club, and rec softball team decide whether or not they will allow you to join based on ambiguous reasons, or is anyone allowed as long as they pay the fee?

There's a huge difference. For starters, the rec softball team doesn't all live together. There are only so many rooms in a frat or sorority house, so only so many can fit.

Nice try, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any mention of going Greek on this forum is always a trigger. Why is that? Why do people care so much? I mean, if it's not your thing, great, but why judge so harshly when somebody else does it?

Honestly, for me I see it as one of the last vestiges of white social exclusion along with country clubs.

I can get into most country clubs but a few still won't take me because I am not white. I think there is something similar with fraternities/sororities.
These are institutions that make it easy to be racist and they frequently attract students that are racist, indifferent to racism, or at least tolerant of racism.
So when you say "didn't get a bid hunh?" it sounds like racists rubbing it in.

I have a niece, objectively gorgeous and she wanted to join a sorority and it was no big deal because she was going to a northeastern school where the greek system has integrated.
But I know a kid that went to Duke and he is extremely athletic, smart, confident and popular and he ended up transferring to Chicago or all places to get the F out of there after his experience with the greek system. He was expected to accept a certain level or racism as playful, but the racism only went one way. This is not to single out Dule, I expect this is true at a lot of schools.

DP. I'm not a fan of the Greek system, but not because I see it as racist. These days, POC are in every sorority, and there are special sororities and fraternities exclusively for black people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS was rush chair and president at T25, so after bids went out he’d always have to talk to reluctant parents. After one conversation, the student sent a heartfelt text to DS saying that his parents still weren’t on board but that he was grateful that the past 2.5 weeks made him realize that someday he’d find a group because he didn’t have any friends in HS, and thanked DS for being so kind. DS is a softie so that one got him.

Those are the kind of parents who are anti-fraternity but shouldn’t be.

Also, pps are FOS that wealthy east and west coasters aren’t in fraternities. We’re wealthy, but many of his friends were even more so: NYC penthouses, $7M Palo Alto house, kids with multi-homes, and on. We know St. Albans kids in fraternities. Please.

Seriously, what Frat/Sorority is contacting parents?!?!?! These students are all adults.

The parents contacted him. Helicopter parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only people here who sound triggered are the Greek boosters. The people who are passing on it - even when the parents were in houses themselves - sound pretty rational.

It really is okay for other people to have other opinions. It won't stop your kid from joining a frat

Yeah, this is what I’m reading too. I’m personally most interested the perspectives of people who experienced Greek life (each being n=1, of course, within a system that offers a wide range of experiences), and today reflect on their experience with a different perspective.

I can see that Greek life can offer something appealing and meaningful to young people, especially in a fractured world where isolation is more the norm than it used to be. If either of my kids had wanted to rush, I’d be open. I’d have a serious talk about costs and social pressures, but I’d be open. But one chose a school without Greek life, the other seems totally uninterested in rushing and didn’t even go to the Greek fair. I guess I feel about Greek life the way I feel about cruise vacations or golf or gaming: glad you like it, I can intellectually see why it might appeal, I can hold those potential upsides with what people are saying about potential downsides, but in the end I never felt the pull myself.

Agree. It really is ok to like it or not like it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look, if there’s one thing that the DMV has an over abundance of, it’s strivers. There is nowhere where that is more obvious than DCUM. You have to live in the right neighborhood, you have to have the right job, you have to make the right amount of money, you have to go to the right private high school, you have to go to the right prestigious college, etc. But if you don’t do that or can’t achieve it you rip apart those who do or can.

Same thing applies with going Greek. So many people would give their right arm to have their kid get into what is perceived as a top house — and, trust me, if they could do it, they wouldn’t stop talking about it — but knowing they dedicate the entire system. It’s because of the striver in them. The feeling that they just can’t hang. I’m telling you, that’s what it is. In other words, yes, they’re jealous.

What? Objectively, our family has all the things you list, yet none of us were or are interested in going Greek. I couldn't even tell you what a "top house" is, and my circle of friends and family is the same way. Greek life is just not on the radar at ALL for us. I assure you, we couldn't be less "jealous" if we tried.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only people here who sound triggered are the Greek boosters. The people who are passing on it - even when the parents were in houses themselves - sound pretty rational.

It really is okay for other people to have other opinions. It won't stop your kid from joining a frat

+1
The most defensive posters are those who can't stand it when others simply say their kids have no interest. It seems to really trigger them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only people here who sound triggered are the Greek boosters. The people who are passing on it - even when the parents were in houses themselves - sound pretty rational.

It really is okay for other people to have other opinions. It won't stop your kid from joining a frat

Yeah, this is what I’m reading too. I’m personally most interested the perspectives of people who experienced Greek life (each being n=1, of course, within a system that offers a wide range of experiences), and today reflect on their experience with a different perspective.

I can see that Greek life can offer something appealing and meaningful to young people, especially in a fractured world where isolation is more the norm than it used to be. If either of my kids had wanted to rush, I’d be open. I’d have a serious talk about costs and social pressures, but I’d be open. But one chose a school without Greek life, the other seems totally uninterested in rushing and didn’t even go to the Greek fair. I guess I feel about Greek life the way I feel about cruise vacations or golf or gaming: glad you like it, I can intellectually see why it might appeal, I can hold those potential upsides with what people are saying about potential downsides, but in the end I never felt the pull myself.

Exactly! Well said.
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only people here who sound triggered are the Greek boosters. The people who are passing on it - even when the parents were in houses themselves - sound pretty rational.

It really is okay for other people to have other opinions. It won't stop your kid from joining a frat

+1
The most defensive posters are those who can't stand it when others simply say their kids have no interest. It seems to really trigger them.

There are toxic, judgmental posters on both sides based on the few greek life threads I've seen. Just like any mommy war.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son had an interesting take on it. He’s had several fraternities reach out to him but he isn’t interested. In his opinion it’s A. Weird to pay for friends B. More about gaining social protection by subjugating your will and moral compass to a group and C Limiting as he enjoys bringing together different groups of people. My daughter had a slightly different but similar opinion that she didn’t want some other group picking and dictating her friends for her. She is shockingly beautiful so the queen bees always zero in on her to get her to join their cliques and she’s always rebuffed them, picked her own friends.

Both kids have a strong protect the weaker person ethos and can’t stand people who reject or pick on people to boost their own popularity. Greek life seems to attract people willing to follow not lead, and prey on the weaker people rather than defend.

I do agree with the not wanting to pay for friends. When I att need college rush was fall literally during new student week before clssses had begun. Kids had 2 days on campus then bam! Rush started. So no chance for people to make their own friends and those that had started ended up going different ways because they ended up in different sororities

Someone explain “paying for friends”. The phrase is thrown around all the time and makes little sense.

Is joining any organization where you pay dues (a pool club, a running club, a rec softball team, etc.) and receive a product in return “paying for friends”?

My kid saves money with their fraternity fees compared to the other room & board options…how is that “paying for friends”?

DP. Do the pool club, running club, and rec softball team decide whether or not they will allow you to join based on ambiguous reasons, or is anyone allowed as long as they pay the fee?

There's a huge difference. For starters, the rec softball team doesn't all live together. There are only so many rooms in a frat or sorority house, so only so many can fit.

Nice try, though.

Is membership in any of those clubs based on how cute you are, what you’re wearing, legacy status? Do the members vote on whether other students are worth having in the club?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, if there’s one thing that the DMV has an over abundance of, it’s strivers. There is nowhere where that is more obvious than DCUM. You have to live in the right neighborhood, you have to have the right job, you have to make the right amount of money, you have to go to the right private high school, you have to go to the right prestigious college, etc. But if you don’t do that or can’t achieve it you rip apart those who do or can.

Same thing applies with going Greek. So many people would give their right arm to have their kid get into what is perceived as a top house — and, trust me, if they could do it, they wouldn’t stop talking about it — but knowing they dedicate the entire system. It’s because of the striver in them. The feeling that they just can’t hang. I’m telling you, that’s what it is. In other words, yes, they’re jealous.

What? Objectively, our family has all the things you list, yet none of us were or are interested in going Greek. I couldn't even tell you what a "top house" is, and my circle of friends and family is the same way. Greek life is just not on the radar at ALL for us. I assure you, we couldn't be less "jealous" if we tried.

And you're obtuse. I'm talking about the people who DON'T have those things. You do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only people here who sound triggered are the Greek boosters. The people who are passing on it - even when the parents were in houses themselves - sound pretty rational.

It really is okay for other people to have other opinions. It won't stop your kid from joining a frat

+1
The most defensive posters are those who can't stand it when others simply say their kids have no interest. It seems to really trigger them.

No one on here is "simply saying their kids have no interest." They're saying they're not interested, yes, but then they have to bash it. There's a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son had an interesting take on it. He’s had several fraternities reach out to him but he isn’t interested. In his opinion it’s A. Weird to pay for friends B. More about gaining social protection by subjugating your will and moral compass to a group and C Limiting as he enjoys bringing together different groups of people. My daughter had a slightly different but similar opinion that she didn’t want some other group picking and dictating her friends for her. She is shockingly beautiful so the queen bees always zero in on her to get her to join their cliques and she’s always rebuffed them, picked her own friends.

Both kids have a strong protect the weaker person ethos and can’t stand people who reject or pick on people to boost their own popularity. Greek life seems to attract people willing to follow not lead, and prey on the weaker people rather than defend.

I do agree with the not wanting to pay for friends. When I att need college rush was fall literally during new student week before clssses had begun. Kids had 2 days on campus then bam! Rush started. So no chance for people to make their own friends and those that had started ended up going different ways because they ended up in different sororities

Someone explain “paying for friends”. The phrase is thrown around all the time and makes little sense.

Is joining any organization where you pay dues (a pool club, a running club, a rec softball team, etc.) and receive a product in return “paying for friends”?

My kid saves money with their fraternity fees compared to the other room & board options…how is that “paying for friends”?

DP. Do the pool club, running club, and rec softball team decide whether or not they will allow you to join based on ambiguous reasons, or is anyone allowed as long as they pay the fee?

There's a huge difference. For starters, the rec softball team doesn't all live together. There are only so many rooms in a frat or sorority house, so only so many can fit.

Nice try, though.

Is membership in any of those clubs based on how cute you are, what you’re wearing, legacy status? Do the members vote on whether other students are worth having in the club?

You're assuming that those things matter at all -- or even most -- houses. They don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son had an interesting take on it. He’s had several fraternities reach out to him but he isn’t interested. In his opinion it’s A. Weird to pay for friends B. More about gaining social protection by subjugating your will and moral compass to a group and C Limiting as he enjoys bringing together different groups of people. My daughter had a slightly different but similar opinion that she didn’t want some other group picking and dictating her friends for her. She is shockingly beautiful so the queen bees always zero in on her to get her to join their cliques and she’s always rebuffed them, picked her own friends.

Both kids have a strong protect the weaker person ethos and can’t stand people who reject or pick on people to boost their own popularity. Greek life seems to attract people willing to follow not lead, and prey on the weaker people rather than defend.

I do agree with the not wanting to pay for friends. When I att need college rush was fall literally during new student week before clssses had begun. Kids had 2 days on campus then bam! Rush started. So no chance for people to make their own friends and those that had started ended up going different ways because they ended up in different sororities

Someone explain “paying for friends”. The phrase is thrown around all the time and makes little sense.

Is joining any organization where you pay dues (a pool club, a running club, a rec softball team, etc.) and receive a product in return “paying for friends”?

My kid saves money with their fraternity fees compared to the other room & board options…how is that “paying for friends”?

DP. Do the pool club, running club, and rec softball team decide whether or not they will allow you to join based on ambiguous reasons, or is anyone allowed as long as they pay the fee?

There's a huge difference. For starters, the rec softball team doesn't all live together. There are only so many rooms in a frat or sorority house, so only so many can fit.

Nice try, though.

Is membership in any of those clubs based on how cute you are, what you’re wearing, legacy status? Do the members vote on whether other students are worth having in the club?

You're assuming that those things matter at all -- or even most -- houses. They don't.

But the members do vote on who is good enough, right? That’s a big difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Twelve pages of almost pure ridiculousness with a few droplets of sanity sprinkled in.

The fact is, if you don’t go Greek, it’s basically a coin toss whether you’ll look back on college with fond memories or as a lonely four years.

Fraternity men and sorority women, in contrast, almost universally love their college years. They’re the gods and goddesses of campus, they get into the best parties, have the best dating options, and land the best jobs and business opportunities after graduation.

Check out Greek Row on homecoming weekend. Look at the Bimmers filling the parking lot and notice how many alums from 10, 20, even 30+ years ago are back in their old houses, living it up with their brothers like they never left. Those bonds run deeper than anything that forms in a classroom or dorm.

What school is this?

Most of the top schools do not have this sort of dynamic.
Aside from Dartmouth and probably Cornell, I don't think joining a fraternity/sorority is particularly consequential.

You can just ignore our resident frat members as gods poster. They appear on every Greek thread. No one can figure out if they are actually pro-Greek since they do such a good job of making Greek life into such a negative.