Can we have a rational discussion about going Greek?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I posted the previous last past (the second to last one - lol). Just to be clear, we’re gay parents and we’re not opposed to Greek life (perhaps shocking), but our child CHOSE not to pursue that option for their OWN reasons (are we happy about that? well, maybe, it depends.) It’s complicated, right, like life? If you equip your kid for any eventuality, then you should be good. Pocket book excluded, I think.

This is my favorite sentence in this whole thread. Yes, complicated like life. Like human beings, too.

[Anonymous]

https://www.reddit.com/r/college/comments/1n6ltrs/i_rushed_and_i_regret_it_an_alumnus_perspective

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the participation trophy generation. Parents of today's college kids are terrified that their kid won't get the trophy, so they discourage their kids from even participating.

What are you going on about? The majority of posters here are either all for their kids rushing or are fine either way. Doesn’t sound discouraging to me.

Oh please. We're on page 14 of an active thread. It wouldn't be this long if it were half saying "go Greek!" and the other half responding "whatever." There's post after post going negative.

Don’t ask for people’s opinions if all you want is validation.

[Anonymous]

Normally when I’m defensive about something it’s because I know the alternate opinion has some merit. There is good and bad, no other answer, up to each individual to decide if pros outweigh cons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an immigrant kid in college I found it exclusionary as hell. I am glad my own kids aren't interested.

You were unfortunately at the wrong college then. Totally not the experience I had.

How can it be non-exclusionary if only a small percentage of people who rush are accepted?

at university of alabama, one of the biggest recruitments, as long as you meet guidelines (GPA and such and do not have any red flags, every girl will get a bid as long as she maximizes her options all the way through. it may not be to the house she wished for, but it will be a bid.

This is still pretty exclusionary. And before you @me, I was in a sorority at a big SEC school.

Yeah. These Panhellenic women are queens of gaslighting and “newspeak.”

“Maximizing her chances” means “take what you get, your own feelings, preferences, etc be damned”. If you get the catch-all new house that no one wants, it’s just “where you belong” and instead of having fun, you’ll be working for four years to make the house grow to benefit the university.

What does this mean?

Instead of joining an established, organized house with a giant social network, you spend your four years trying to grow the newest house that no one wants because it’s new.

Auburn did this in about 2017-18 and it messed up rush so terribly, Alabama moms told their girls to go to U Alabama instead.

Universities add houses when the number of girls participating increases significantly. But it’s usually a slow, hard process because most people don’t want the one house they aren’t at all familiar with. So they lower the number of girls the established houses can take, funneling more girls into the position where all they are offered is the new house.

Universities do this because they only have so long to make the house succeed or else they lose the charter and need to do it again. Maybe this would appeal to marketing majors and business development types, but to those who just wanted a social circle, it’s not appealing to instead get a job. And it’s a really selfish and cruel way to welcome a bunch of 17-18 year olds who just left home. A humane and emotionally respectful way to do would be for every girl to have two choices left at the end of the week. But instead, many girls are left with only one well before bid day and either take it or drop out. But the National Panhellenic and the university get your full rush fee regardless. Then they tell you this new house is your chance to “make it yours”. It’s a really disgusting manipulation of young girls for their own benefit.

[Anonymous]

So wait. Are the national fraternities and sororities businesses that need chapters and members to succeed and grow? If so, are they not-for-profits or for-profits?

Also, aren't there non-national fraternities and sororities? How do they work?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, if there’s one thing that the DMV has an over abundance of, it’s strivers. There is nowhere where that is more obvious than DCUM. You have to live in the right neighborhood, you have to have the right job, you have to make the right amount of money, you have to go to the right private high school, you have to go to the right prestigious college, etc. But if you don’t do that or can’t achieve it you rip apart those who do or can.

Same thing applies with going Greek. So many people would give their right arm to have their kid get into what is perceived as a top house — and, trust me, if they could do it, they wouldn’t stop talking about it — but knowing they dedicate the entire system. It’s because of the striver in them. The feeling that they just can’t hang. I’m telling you, that’s what it is. In other words, yes, they’re jealous.

What? Objectively, our family has all the things you list, yet none of us were or are interested in going Greek. I couldn't even tell you what a "top house" is, and my circle of friends and family is the same way. Greek life is just not on the radar at ALL for us. I assure you, we couldn't be less "jealous" if we tried.

And you're obtuse. I'm talking about the people who DON'T have those things. You do.

The people WITH the jobs, houses and money with kids going to prestigious colleges are the ones telling you that fraternities are not that big a deal.
They're the ones you are arguing with.

And it sort of sounds like you peaked when you joined a fraternity/sorority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Greek life dropped 50% between 2020-2023 and continues to decline. It’s a vestige of the past.

1. Changing attitudes - students rejecting groups that seek to divide rather than unite, rejecting racist exclusionary practices, and overall less interested in the extreme drunkenness, date rape, and predatory hazing that previous generations reveled in.

2. College cost. If you are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars, engaging in something that could get you kicked out, or perform poorly academically if not flying with parents anymore.

3. Competitiveness of admissions. The Greek life always attracted the good but not stellar or lower achieving students. Those kids aren’t getting in anymore. Kids with an eye toward graduate medical, law school or even business school can’t afford to waste time or risk their GPA in these activities. Gone are the days of the 2.5 or 3.0 frat guy getting into a good law or MBA program.

4. Increased regulation and oversight. The string of deaths along WTH everything being captured on phone cameras is too big a liability for schools to ignore.

5. Demographic changes. Asians, Latinos ,and international students now make a sizable portion of many groups. These groups along with FGLI students have little interest and would be excluded anyway from Greek life. As Greek life is primarily a white culture thing as white enrollment drops so does Greek enrollment. If it’s no longer something that all the students want to get into, it loses its desirability.

lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a thread. Are you all so insecure in how you've parented and in the kids that you've raised that you can't let your kids make their own choices without judging other kids and other parents?

We knew nothing about Greek before our oldest went to UVA. Neither did she. All we knew was that UVA was a great school, it was in state tuition, she was happy to go there, and it had a Greek system.

I don't remember how we reacted when she decided to rush, but I do remember her stories about the process. She went into the whole thing very open minded and very confident -- she just figured she'd be herself, as she always has been, and see where the chips fell. More than anything else, she has a good sense of humor and was looking to connect with other girls who were the same way. So she didn't hold back, not even a little, and in the end got a bid to a nice sorority with good and smart girls, had a great four years, and has stayed friends with them. They've all become happy, successful, well rounded, independent, open-minded women.

Had she not gotten a bid, trust me -- she would have survived.

I don't understand what everyone's problem is. If you've raised your kid right for the first 18 years, you need to trust them to make their own decisions when they get to college, and not deride other kids who make different ones. If you're not doing that, you've either raised kids who aren't confident, or you're not confident in either them or yourself, and that's not good.

To me, the vitriol and defensiveness that I'm seeing here is really just a mask for lack of confidence.

I find the biggest lack of confidence stems from people who think they have to rush in order to make friends or have a social life. The most confident people have no problem not going Greek and make friends wherever they are, with people in their shared clubs/organizations/dorms/etc.

Again, you're making assumptions. What makes you think that that's going on with so many of them? In my kid's case, she just thought why not give it a try? And aren't people joining "clubs/organizations" partly in search of friendship? Why single out the Greek system? People do all kinds of things to find others with shared interests to make friends.

What exactly are the shared interests of the sorority girl? Clapping, drinking, bulimia?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Greek life dropped 50% between 2020-2023 and continues to decline. It’s a vestige of the past.

1. Changing attitudes - students rejecting groups that seek to divide rather than unite, rejecting racist exclusionary practices, and overall less interested in the extreme drunkenness, date rape, and predatory hazing that previous generations reveled in.

2. College cost. If you are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars, engaging in something that could get you kicked out, or perform poorly academically if not flying with parents anymore.

3. Competitiveness of admissions. The Greek life always attracted the good but not stellar or lower achieving students. Those kids aren’t getting in anymore. Kids with an eye toward graduate medical, law school or even business school can’t afford to waste time or risk their GPA in these activities. Gone are the days of the 2.5 or 3.0 frat guy getting into a good law or MBA program.

4. Increased regulation and oversight. The string of deaths along WTH everything being captured on phone cameras is too big a liability for schools to ignore.

5. Demographic changes. Asians, Latinos ,and international students now make a sizable portion of many groups. These groups along with FGLI students have little interest and would be excluded anyway from Greek life. As Greek life is primarily a white culture thing as white enrollment drops so does Greek enrollment. If it’s no longer something that all the students want to get into, it loses its desirability.

Just so we're clear, and for the benefit of the blind posters, you're in the "negative" column, not the "neutral" column, right?

I think this was a neutral post. They were just giving reasons for the decline based on economic and demographic circumstances. My goodness, you are touchy about this subject, aren’t you? Probably best just to discuss within your own Greek circles, where you will hear what you want to hear.

[Anonymous]

I pledged a fraternity and then de-pledged. My biggest issue with the Greek system isn't the costs involved or the craziness of rush. It's how the Greek system kind of steers you away from being involved in other things on campus. At my school, about 15 years ago, I was also working for the student newspaper and had a chance to cover a road basketball game for the first time. Great assignment. The fraternity was pissed at me because we had a party that night and I wasn't going to be around. That happened with 2-3 other club things I wanted to do that year, so ultimately, I concluded the fraternity wasn't for me.

My nephew is at a large state school now. He joined a fraternity. I asked him what kind of things he's involved with on campus and he said, "Not really anything. The fraternity takes all my time." He has a lot of interests, and I know his school has a lot of clubs related to those interests. I asked him if he's thinking about getting involved in this or that. "No, pretty much just the fraternity."

Overall, I think that's a big missed opportunity for kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I pledged a fraternity and then de-pledged. My biggest issue with the Greek system isn't the costs involved or the craziness of rush. It's how the Greek system kind of steers you away from being involved in other things on campus. At my school, about 15 years ago, I was also working for the student newspaper and had a chance to cover a road basketball game for the first time. Great assignment. The fraternity was pissed at me because we had a party that night and I wasn't going to be around. That happened with 2-3 other club things I wanted to do that year, so ultimately, I concluded the fraternity wasn't for me.

My nephew is at a large state school now. He joined a fraternity. I asked him what kind of things he's involved with on campus and he said, "Not really anything. The fraternity takes all my time." He has a lot of interests, and I know his school has a lot of clubs related to those interests. I asked him if he's thinking about getting involved in this or that. "No, pretty much just the fraternity."

Overall, I think that's a big missed opportunity for kids.

This. When my DD was thinking about out pledging, they said that student jobs were not excused absences. My DD needs to work. Another friend joined a sorority and paid all the money, only to find out that the sorority was oversubscribed such that most of the girls were excluded from activities because only X number could participate. I find that infuriating, especially if you are paying money to join.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I pledged a fraternity and then de-pledged. My biggest issue with the Greek system isn't the costs involved or the craziness of rush. It's how the Greek system kind of steers you away from being involved in other things on campus. At my school, about 15 years ago, I was also working for the student newspaper and had a chance to cover a road basketball game for the first time. Great assignment. The fraternity was pissed at me because we had a party that night and I wasn't going to be around. That happened with 2-3 other club things I wanted to do that year, so ultimately, I concluded the fraternity wasn't for me.

My nephew is at a large state school now. He joined a fraternity. I asked him what kind of things he's involved with on campus and he said, "Not really anything. The fraternity takes all my time." He has a lot of interests, and I know his school has a lot of clubs related to those interests. I asked him if he's thinking about getting involved in this or that. "No, pretty much just the fraternity."

Overall, I think that's a big missed opportunity for kids.

That's one large reason I wasn't interested: I worked on the college newspaper, volunteered for the college theatre, was a member of the Film club. The people who went Greek mostly just participated in the Greek system and their houses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I pledged a fraternity and then de-pledged. My biggest issue with the Greek system isn't the costs involved or the craziness of rush. It's how the Greek system kind of steers you away from being involved in other things on campus. At my school, about 15 years ago, I was also working for the student newspaper and had a chance to cover a road basketball game for the first time. Great assignment. The fraternity was pissed at me because we had a party that night and I wasn't going to be around. That happened with 2-3 other club things I wanted to do that year, so ultimately, I concluded the fraternity wasn't for me.

My nephew is at a large state school now. He joined a fraternity. I asked him what kind of things he's involved with on campus and he said, "Not really anything. The fraternity takes all my time." He has a lot of interests, and I know his school has a lot of clubs related to those interests. I asked him if he's thinking about getting involved in this or that. "No, pretty much just the fraternity."

Overall, I think that's a big missed opportunity for kids.

+100
Our neighbor's daughter is involved in a sorority and that is ALL she does - plan parties and silly events. That's it. My DD decided not to rush and has found herself involved in so many interesting activities as a result. I am hugely relieved she didn't go Greek.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I pledged a fraternity and then de-pledged. My biggest issue with the Greek system isn't the costs involved or the craziness of rush. It's how the Greek system kind of steers you away from being involved in other things on campus. At my school, about 15 years ago, I was also working for the student newspaper and had a chance to cover a road basketball game for the first time. Great assignment. The fraternity was pissed at me because we had a party that night and I wasn't going to be around. That happened with 2-3 other club things I wanted to do that year, so ultimately, I concluded the fraternity wasn't for me.

My nephew is at a large state school now. He joined a fraternity. I asked him what kind of things he's involved with on campus and he said, "Not really anything. The fraternity takes all my time." He has a lot of interests, and I know his school has a lot of clubs related to those interests. I asked him if he's thinking about getting involved in this or that. "No, pretty much just the fraternity."

Overall, I think that's a big missed opportunity for kids.

This. When my DD was thinking about out pledging, they said that student jobs were not excused absences. My DD needs to work. Another friend joined a sorority and paid all the money, only to find out that the sorority was oversubscribed such that most of the girls were excluded from activities because only X number could participate. I find that infuriating, especially if you are paying money to join.

My sorority daughter at UVA was heavily involved in volunteering through Madison House and also studied abroad for a semester. She didn't allow her sorority affiliation to hold her back. I guess some people are better at juggling than others.