Here's the thing I don't understand about husbands who don't help out

[Anonymous]

What if when you try to have a conversation about it, your husband just sits there and doesn’t engage? Or minimizes everything you say and brushed the whole thing off like no big deal?

Leaving doesn’t fix the problem either because then he will have the kids alone a lot more and many more things like this will happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I think the bolded is a key key key point and something everyone should really try to think about before having kids. Having childcare fall all on the mom IS a choice. I know it doesn't feel like one but it is. It is hard to force equality into that first year, but IMO it is one of the best things you can do for a marriage. Leave the baby with dad for hours and don't check in 15 times. Pump and if pumping doesn't work then supplement. I know this will set people off but I do not understand people that sacrifice their marriage for EBF. Early motherhood is uncomfortable, you learn to do all those things because you're in the moment and have to figure it out. Force your husband to go through that as well, even if it is uncomfortable for you (not you specifically pp just generally women) and it will pay dividends in the years to come.

What if when you leave DH alone with the baby, bad things happen? And no, not CPS level things, but bad things nonetheless, like:

-2 yo on the verge of being potty trained never gets reminded to go to the bathroom and has accidents in her pants, which are not addressed immediately so she sits in wet underwear

-1.5 yo who has been weaned off of bottles is given mutiple bottles full of milk Because that’s easier than preparing and making food or coming up with other ways to soothe baby

-baby and 2 yo literally spend 3-4 hours straight in front of the TV

-2 yo ends up, every single time, getting hurt. DH not hurting the kid, and not bad enough to go to ER, but I’m talking major wipe outs with multiple scrapes/bumps/bruises.

1) Make him clean up the accidents.
2) No big deal, no baby is drinking bottles at age 10 or 5 and if he's weaned off bottles already its not that big a deal. But also, if he's weaned off bottles have your husband move all bottles into storage and then they're not even there.
3) This would bother me if it was not a one off and I'd say it was not ok and it would turn into a large fight if he wouldn't come around but my response would not be to stop leaving the kids with him, it would be to keep leaving the kisd with him until he stopped or to leave him or go to marital counseling. It would be an ever present issue until we reached common ground.
4) My 2 yo constantly bumps himself, I think its a part of learning how to move your body, this I would consider a normal part of growing up unless they were egregious safety oversights like regularly falling off a high spot or something.

See here's what you're not getting with men like this. There's no "make them" do anything. It would go like this in my household:

I arrive home and see that 2 year old is sitting in wet, cold, smelly underwear on the couch and has obviously been like that for hours.

Me (probably looking/sounding upset): "DH, why is Larla sitting in her wet underwear? Could you please change her?"
DH: "Why are you always nagging me?"
Me: Could you please just change her while I put the groceries away? It smells and she gets rashes.
DH: You're crazy. Why do you always get so mad? (Walks away.)

I guess I'm not getting it because I cannot imagine a world where that is the end of the conversation in my house. That would result in a two hour long discussion after the kids had gone to bed about the importance of being observant with the kids and, much more importantly, the importance of talking to me with respect in front of the kids and the gross violation of calling me crazy.

The exchange you describe above would result in an enormous fight in my house. And if nothing changed after enough of those I really would leave. I would absolutely not be spoken to like that.

I'm glad for you. As it turns out, it is much harder to leave than you may think. Why is why a lot of women end up being "trained" to just do it all themselves and not create conflict. It's sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I think the bolded is a key key key point and something everyone should really try to think about before having kids. Having childcare fall all on the mom IS a choice. I know it doesn't feel like one but it is. It is hard to force equality into that first year, but IMO it is one of the best things you can do for a marriage. Leave the baby with dad for hours and don't check in 15 times. Pump and if pumping doesn't work then supplement. I know this will set people off but I do not understand people that sacrifice their marriage for EBF. Early motherhood is uncomfortable, you learn to do all those things because you're in the moment and have to figure it out. Force your husband to go through that as well, even if it is uncomfortable for you (not you specifically pp just generally women) and it will pay dividends in the years to come.

What if when you leave DH alone with the baby, bad things happen? And no, not CPS level things, but bad things nonetheless, like:

-2 yo on the verge of being potty trained never gets reminded to go to the bathroom and has accidents in her pants, which are not addressed immediately so she sits in wet underwear

-1.5 yo who has been weaned off of bottles is given mutiple bottles full of milk Because that’s easier than preparing and making food or coming up with other ways to soothe baby

-baby and 2 yo literally spend 3-4 hours straight in front of the TV

-2 yo ends up, every single time, getting hurt. DH not hurting the kid, and not bad enough to go to ER, but I’m talking major wipe outs with multiple scrapes/bumps/bruises.

1) Make him clean up the accidents.
2) No big deal, no baby is drinking bottles at age 10 or 5 and if he's weaned off bottles already its not that big a deal. But also, if he's weaned off bottles have your husband move all bottles into storage and then they're not even there.
3) This would bother me if it was not a one off and I'd say it was not ok and it would turn into a large fight if he wouldn't come around but my response would not be to stop leaving the kids with him, it would be to keep leaving the kisd with him until he stopped or to leave him or go to marital counseling. It would be an ever present issue until we reached common ground.
4) My 2 yo constantly bumps himself, I think its a part of learning how to move your body, this I would consider a normal part of growing up unless they were egregious safety oversights like regularly falling off a high spot or something.

See here's what you're not getting with men like this. There's no "make them" do anything. It would go like this in my household:

I arrive home and see that 2 year old is sitting in wet, cold, smelly underwear on the couch and has obviously been like that for hours.

Me (probably looking/sounding upset): "DH, why is Larla sitting in her wet underwear? Could you please change her?"
DH: "Why are you always nagging me?"
Me: Could you please just change her while I put the groceries away? It smells and she gets rashes.
DH: You're crazy. Why do you always get so mad? (Walks away.)

Exactly this. The mess and cleaning it up is not the issue. The issue is that it’s unacceptable for my child to sit in soiled underwear for hours.

I really don't know what to say about this. Any man who lets his kid sit in dirty diapers, and then gets mad when it's pointed out to him, is a loser (not just because of this, but it's pretty obvious that this attitude woudl permeate everything he does). I'm not going to say divorce him, but this is not the recipe for a happy relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What if when you try to have a conversation about it, your husband just sits there and doesn’t engage? Or minimizes everything you say and brushed the whole thing off like no big deal?

Leaving doesn’t fix the problem either because then he will have the kids alone a lot more and many more things like this will happen.

My husband has been like that sometimes, the conversation is not over until we've talked it out, full stop. Maybe we need to cool down before we have it, but that conversation above would just...that conversation would not happen in my house.

To me, in that conversation, there is years worth of resentment and unspoken issues. I would be furious if I came home and my daughter had been sitting in wet underwear watching tv for hours. But there must have been a million things leading up to this. And if my husband had been like that for two years and talked to me like that then yes I'd leave. I can't imagine a man like that wanting equal custody but I'd also document neglect. Leaving a child soiled is actual abusive behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I think the bolded is a key key key point and something everyone should really try to think about before having kids. Having childcare fall all on the mom IS a choice. I know it doesn't feel like one but it is. It is hard to force equality into that first year, but IMO it is one of the best things you can do for a marriage. Leave the baby with dad for hours and don't check in 15 times. Pump and if pumping doesn't work then supplement. I know this will set people off but I do not understand people that sacrifice their marriage for EBF. Early motherhood is uncomfortable, you learn to do all those things because you're in the moment and have to figure it out. Force your husband to go through that as well, even if it is uncomfortable for you (not you specifically pp just generally women) and it will pay dividends in the years to come.

What if when you leave DH alone with the baby, bad things happen? And no, not CPS level things, but bad things nonetheless, like:

-2 yo on the verge of being potty trained never gets reminded to go to the bathroom and has accidents in her pants, which are not addressed immediately so she sits in wet underwear

-1.5 yo who has been weaned off of bottles is given mutiple bottles full of milk Because that’s easier than preparing and making food or coming up with other ways to soothe baby

-baby and 2 yo literally spend 3-4 hours straight in front of the TV

-2 yo ends up, every single time, getting hurt. DH not hurting the kid, and not bad enough to go to ER, but I’m talking major wipe outs with multiple scrapes/bumps/bruises.

1) Make him clean up the accidents.
2) No big deal, no baby is drinking bottles at age 10 or 5 and if he's weaned off bottles already its not that big a deal. But also, if he's weaned off bottles have your husband move all bottles into storage and then they're not even there.
3) This would bother me if it was not a one off and I'd say it was not ok and it would turn into a large fight if he wouldn't come around but my response would not be to stop leaving the kids with him, it would be to keep leaving the kisd with him until he stopped or to leave him or go to marital counseling. It would be an ever present issue until we reached common ground.
4) My 2 yo constantly bumps himself, I think its a part of learning how to move your body, this I would consider a normal part of growing up unless they were egregious safety oversights like regularly falling off a high spot or something.

See here's what you're not getting with men like this. There's no "make them" do anything. It would go like this in my household:

I arrive home and see that 2 year old is sitting in wet, cold, smelly underwear on the couch and has obviously been like that for hours.

Me (probably looking/sounding upset): "DH, why is Larla sitting in her wet underwear? Could you please change her?"
DH: "Why are you always nagging me?"
Me: Could you please just change her while I put the groceries away? It smells and she gets rashes.
DH: You're crazy. Why do you always get so mad? (Walks away.)

I guess I'm not getting it because I cannot imagine a world where that is the end of the conversation in my house. That would result in a two hour long discussion after the kids had gone to bed about the importance of being observant with the kids and, much more importantly, the importance of talking to me with respect in front of the kids and the gross violation of calling me crazy.

The exchange you describe above would result in an enormous fight in my house. And if nothing changed after enough of those I really would leave. I would absolutely not be spoken to like that.

I'm glad for you. As it turns out, it is much harder to leave than you may think. Why is why a lot of women end up being "trained" to just do it all themselves and not create conflict. It's sad.

It is sad, I believe a relationship like this is not worth staying in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, OP, you sound like his Mother. Your way of teaching your DH to clean the bathroom is how I teach my sons. My DH knows how to clean a bathroom better than I do by learning from his Mother. If your DH is not cleaning the bathroom to your standards, then you should be the one with that chore, or you should learn to accept the way he does it. I mean, you can tell him you don't think it's clean enough, and if he wants you to teach him, then go for it, but don't think it helps any relationship to treat your partner like a child.

I don't get mad at my DH when he forgets stuff from the grocery store because he can't find the stuff he wanted just as often as what I wanted. I don't have to teach him how to clean (he's better at most cleaning than I am), but when we were dating and I told him he was loading the dishwasher wrong it led to something like a 4 week standoff because he can't handle criticism at all. He had to break the dishwasher and have a technician come out and tell him exactly what I said he was doing wrong before he changed his ways. I don't think you can teach or train a grown man to be better at basic tasks, you have to choose to marry one that's not a screw-up to begin with (which, dishwasher incident notwithstanding, is what I did). This is why I have more sympathy for women who realize their DH's suck at childcare than cleaning - that one is at least partially unknowable before the fact.

Man, I feel bad for you. He can’t find the things he wanted. You know what I’d say to a teenager? Well, did you ASK someone for help?? Plus now they have apps for that.

I don't think you should feel bad for me. Coming home with 18/20 things on the grocery list is simply not a big deal to me, and if I'm not bothered you shouldn't waste your pity.

It’s just so pathetic. I’m not being snarky, I’m being absolutely serious.

My wife and I split the grocery shopping pretty evenly. If one of us forgot to get something, here's the progression once we get home:

- Do we need it this week for a planned meal, or because it's an essential (someone is out of dedorant, for example). If yes, then you go back. If not immediately, then soon. If no, then we may not go back, immediately, or at all. Or we might, if we had the time and were so inclined. It's really not that difficult.

The amount of disrespect shown in this thread, flowing both ways, is truly stunning.

And I presume that if you couldn’t find something necessary for this week, you’d ask an employee for help? That’s the point. You wouldn’t just shrug your shoulders, think of we’ll I tried, then leave it to your wife to fix.

Of course.

If there are people who have a list of groceries, can't find something on it, and just shrug their shoulders and leave without asking someone, that's beyond pathetic. Man or woman.

Yes, that is EXACTLY the point!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I think the bolded is a key key key point and something everyone should really try to think about before having kids. Having childcare fall all on the mom IS a choice. I know it doesn't feel like one but it is. It is hard to force equality into that first year, but IMO it is one of the best things you can do for a marriage. Leave the baby with dad for hours and don't check in 15 times. Pump and if pumping doesn't work then supplement. I know this will set people off but I do not understand people that sacrifice their marriage for EBF. Early motherhood is uncomfortable, you learn to do all those things because you're in the moment and have to figure it out. Force your husband to go through that as well, even if it is uncomfortable for you (not you specifically pp just generally women) and it will pay dividends in the years to come.

What if when you leave DH alone with the baby, bad things happen? And no, not CPS level things, but bad things nonetheless, like:

-2 yo on the verge of being potty trained never gets reminded to go to the bathroom and has accidents in her pants, which are not addressed immediately so she sits in wet underwear

-1.5 yo who has been weaned off of bottles is given mutiple bottles full of milk Because that’s easier than preparing and making food or coming up with other ways to soothe baby

-baby and 2 yo literally spend 3-4 hours straight in front of the TV

-2 yo ends up, every single time, getting hurt. DH not hurting the kid, and not bad enough to go to ER, but I’m talking major wipe outs with multiple scrapes/bumps/bruises.

1) Make him clean up the accidents.
2) No big deal, no baby is drinking bottles at age 10 or 5 and if he's weaned off bottles already its not that big a deal. But also, if he's weaned off bottles have your husband move all bottles into storage and then they're not even there.
3) This would bother me if it was not a one off and I'd say it was not ok and it would turn into a large fight if he wouldn't come around but my response would not be to stop leaving the kids with him, it would be to keep leaving the kisd with him until he stopped or to leave him or go to marital counseling. It would be an ever present issue until we reached common ground.
4) My 2 yo constantly bumps himself, I think its a part of learning how to move your body, this I would consider a normal part of growing up unless they were egregious safety oversights like regularly falling off a high spot or something.

See here's what you're not getting with men like this. There's no "make them" do anything. It would go like this in my household:

I arrive home and see that 2 year old is sitting in wet, cold, smelly underwear on the couch and has obviously been like that for hours.

Me (probably looking/sounding upset): "DH, why is Larla sitting in her wet underwear? Could you please change her?"
DH: "Why are you always nagging me?"
Me: Could you please just change her while I put the groceries away? It smells and she gets rashes.
DH: You're crazy. Why do you always get so mad? (Walks away.)

I guess I'm not getting it because I cannot imagine a world where that is the end of the conversation in my house. That would result in a two hour long discussion after the kids had gone to bed about the importance of being observant with the kids and, much more importantly, the importance of talking to me with respect in front of the kids and the gross violation of calling me crazy.

The exchange you describe above would result in an enormous fight in my house. And if nothing changed after enough of those I really would leave. I would absolutely not be spoken to like that.

1000%

I just wouldn’t stay in a relationship like that, I can’t even fathom it. The things I see red on would be like nothing to the quoted PP (like DH talking with a “tone”).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

I agree. And the women who hold their husbands to high standards - they can’t even imagine what these horrible men are like because they wouldn’t even have dated them. That story about the guy who brought in a dish washer technician to prove his gf wrong? I would have been so out of there. I would never even entertain craziness like that.

This guy who leaves his kids in a dirty diaper then abuses his wife when she speaks up? Oh hell no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Problem is that you assume they care. Plenty of men don't care AT ALL if they live in filth and squalor or whether their meals are nutritious that they feed their families. They just don't care and are never going to do it themselves.

I knew plenty of guys in college that never cleaned the bathroom once and just moved to a new apartment every year. They'd scrub the one fork they were going to use, but leave the rest dirty or eat out every night. Basically living like pigs.

Sure, there are men who live in squalor. However, most men also find this unacceptable. If someone is willing to live with dirty diapers on the floor and unable to get a child ready properly, then they need to see a mental health professional.

The majority of men who don’t pitch in are simply taking advantage of unpaid labor of their DW. Guarantee you diaper guy has A relatively clean office at work.

Likely not. Women get stuck cleaning up men's messes at work too. I remember when I (a young lawyer) got stuck on a rotating duty to clean the fridge and also do records filing. I didn't mind doing that, but the guys who were just as new as me didn't get tasked it. Only women got tasked with items like that and we had higher degrees than the men too.

Omg I hate this. I did work study a few years back (where I worked in exchange for a discount on a certification I wanted). They had me do things like vacuum, clean up the kitchen and break room, round up everyone when it was time for class to start, etc. There was a guy also doing work study who did literally nothing. His excuse was that he was a first year med student, so he would be doing "important" work like writing papers for them - that he never actually did.

The real kicker is that he had a crush on me and would come WATCH me clean up and talk to me while I was busting my @$$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

I agree. And the women who hold their husbands to high standards - they can’t even imagine what these horrible men are like because they wouldn’t even have dated them. That story about the guy who brought in a dish washer technician to prove his gf wrong? I would have been so out of there. I would never even entertain craziness like that.

This guy who leaves his kids in a dirty diaper then abuses his wife when she speaks up? Oh hell no.

Many women are raised to have low self-esteem and to be deferential and accommodate others. It is incredibly hard to learn to stand up for yourself as an adult when, for your entire life, your parents and every other authority figure has punished you for speaking up, disagreeing, or advocating for yourself. And even when you do, there are still often people who will accuse you of being entitled or tell you that you’re not attractive or special enough to have high standards from men or others in your life.

This problem misogyny and internalized misogyny. It’s not an individual woman’s specific problem that she is just refusing to solve by taking your advice. It is a system designed to oppress women by convincing them they deserve to be oppressed. You can’t fight it by telling these women to just “have higher standards.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

I agree. And the women who hold their husbands to high standards - they can’t even imagine what these horrible men are like because they wouldn’t even have dated them. That story about the guy who brought in a dish washer technician to prove his gf wrong? I would have been so out of there. I would never even entertain craziness like that.

This guy who leaves his kids in a dirty diaper then abuses his wife when she speaks up? Oh hell no.

Many women are raised to have low self-esteem and to be deferential and accommodate others. It is incredibly hard to learn to stand up for yourself as an adult when, for your entire life, your parents and every other authority figure has punished you for speaking up, disagreeing, or advocating for yourself. And even when you do, there are still often people who will accuse you of being entitled or tell you that you’re not attractive or special enough to have high standards from men or others in your life.

This problem misogyny and internalized misogyny. It’s not an individual woman’s specific problem that she is just refusing to solve by taking your advice. It is a system designed to oppress women by convincing them they deserve to be oppressed. You can’t fight it by telling these women to just “have higher standards.”

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

Sadly I don't think this will happen in my lifetime.

[Anonymous]

You know, it’s not always possible to know your DH will turn out like this before marriage. I know everyone on dcurbanmom thinks they would NEVER tolerate this think they can avoid this sort of problem just by making better decisions, but that’s not always true.

When we were dating, our life was simpler and DH was able to handle things in a way that looked normal to me or quirky at worst. He did help out and he held down a job and was kind.

After we had our first kid, we went through a huge adjustment. I was doing more than him but the spread didn’t feel too bad-we were at maybe 65/35 with me doing more but him doing a lot.

Then came the 2nd kid, who ended up having severe SN. We also moved across the country for our jobs, and DH has had some health challenges.

All hell has broken loose and I now feel I do 95% of everything.

I can’t leave because then he’d have my kids half the time, and my children would be in a dirty house watching tv 24/7 and eating McDonald’s.

I can’t control everything. Sometimes things don’t work out great and you make the best of things. DH isn’t mean and doesn’t yell. But he’s very checked out and not helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

I agree. And the women who hold their husbands to high standards - they can’t even imagine what these horrible men are like because they wouldn’t even have dated them. That story about the guy who brought in a dish washer technician to prove his gf wrong? I would have been so out of there. I would never even entertain craziness like that.

This guy who leaves his kids in a dirty diaper then abuses his wife when she speaks up? Oh hell no.

I think often about my DH's exGF (well, really woman who he dated a few times) who upon seeing his disaster of an apartment, said "I don't want to see you anymore - I want to get married someday."

Smart woman.