Here's the thing I don't understand about husbands who don't help out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

I agree. And the women who hold their husbands to high standards - they can’t even imagine what these horrible men are like because they wouldn’t even have dated them. That story about the guy who brought in a dish washer technician to prove his gf wrong? I would have been so out of there. I would never even entertain craziness like that.

This guy who leaves his kids in a dirty diaper then abuses his wife when she speaks up? Oh hell no.

Many women are raised to have low self-esteem and to be deferential and accommodate others. It is incredibly hard to learn to stand up for yourself as an adult when, for your entire life, your parents and every other authority figure has punished you for speaking up, disagreeing, or advocating for yourself. And even when you do, there are still often people who will accuse you of being entitled or tell you that you’re not attractive or special enough to have high standards from men or others in your life.

This problem misogyny and internalized misogyny. It’s not an individual woman’s specific problem that she is just refusing to solve by taking your advice. It is a system designed to oppress women by convincing them they deserve to be oppressed. You can’t fight it by telling these women to just “have higher standards.”

I can't totally explain how I have ended up in this situation. I don't FEEL like I was raised not to stand up for myself, but as time has gone on, it's clear my father views my brothers as "real" people with opinions worth consulting, and his daughters as much less competent or intelligent. So I'm sure I must have gotten some bad messages.

But I also feel like a lot of it is just shock and surprised. When this stuff started happening and escalating when I was pregnant/had a newborn/back to work, I was just so overwhelmed and exhausted that I couldn't really do anything about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

can't you see the embedded misogyning in WOMEN having to be the ones to "hold" men to a "higher standard"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Add me to the list of people being amazed that open communication between spouses = mothering!

Wow! You guys make it sound like you walk on eggshells around your spouses. I can’t even imagine. Who’d want to live that way?

I guess the issue is, I would NEVER marry a guy who can’t take constructive criticism or “criticism from a woman” as a PP said (wtf doesn’t he work with any women??). Talk about a red flag for toxic masculinity.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my DH asked me to clean the bathroom and then walked me in afterwards pointing out where I missed spots, I would hand him the paper towels, say “have fun!” and never do it again. Who would talk to an adult like this?

Imagine if the "adult" left all the poop stains in the toilet and completely forgot the sink bowl altogether. What would you say?

No amount of “training” would cure insanity, which is the only possible explanation someone thinking poop-stained toilets are clean. But if the bathroom were 95% clean, I would drop it. My DH takes out the trash all the time, and never remembers to replace the bin with a new trash bag. It drives me nuts, but after telling him once, I left it behind with all the other petty annoyances. I like not taking out the trash, and I like not having a resentful DH whom I have to babysit. It’s worth the two seconds it takes me to “finish” his chore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

can't you see the embedded misogyning in WOMEN having to be the ones to "hold" men to a "higher standard"?

Society needs to hold men to higher standards, that includes women. I am not blaming a woman for the man being a d, but there are shi**y people everywhere and always will be. Shi**y men and shi**y women and while you cannot control all of society you can control whether you stay with someone who treats you like sh*t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like my mama always said "marry them young and train them hard"

So... why is it that it is up to women to "train" the husbands? Who trained us? Why is it that we can see what needs to be done and do it without being given a chore list? My husband will gladly "help out" if I give him a very specific list of what needs to be done... but the fact that I have to tell him what to do and that he still sees it as "assisting" in my domain makes me extremely angry. Did women in the 1960s and 1970s, when many more were entering the workforce have to be "trained" in how to behave and perform in business? No - women entered the workforce, killing it in every way possible, while still keeping the lion's share of home responsibilities. We are doing something very wrong in our society if many men STILL need to be told what to do or are still unable to complete basic home tasks.

+ 1 million!!!! This is EXACTLY how I feel. Why in the hell do I have to figure it all out, get it all done, tell everyone else what needs to get done, do it correctly (yes there is a correct and an incorrect way to do lots of things, not everything is inconsequential), and he can't? The last time we went away for a week, I literally had to stand around like a drill sergeant telling him what to do, what to pack, where to put things constantly, or nothing would get done or he would keep asking me "what should I do?" "What car are we taking?" "Where should I put this?" It's ridiculous. It's tiring. It's lonely. It's exasperating because now I'm seen as a drill sergeant but my only other option is to do it all myself...literally. "Where are the garbage bags? What do I make so and so for lunch ? Is she allergic to this? Questions he should know by now if he used half of his very smart brain for anything important to our family except for making money. I have lost all respect. I'm so sick and tired of being married to someone who in some respects is still 12. It's insane, and if you couldn't tell, it also makes me very angry. I want to be married to an adult, someone who doesn't need a mommy anymore. I wanted a companion, a friend, a partner. Yet I have another child to manage instead.

What do you think would happen if you said all this to him? In a calm, genuinely caring way, not in a nasty attacking way. Like, “I’m worried about the future of our relations if nothing changes,” kind of way.

I'm the PP you quoted. I have spoken about this very thing calmly and lovingly for almost 20 years. Nothing has changed. I look back and KNOW I should have known all this before we were married. I was young, stupid, had no family that ever spoke about any of this, had just lost my father, my mother was in a hospital, and I guess what subconsciously happened was that I was desperate to overlook any flaws in the hopes that I would have a better life. What has happened is that I have grown, evolved, matured.....and he hasn't. It's difficult and a lonely life especially as my kids get older and I know I will never have the kind of relationship I had always dreamed of but he is a good man at heart. He is just extremely immature. I know it's too late for me (mid 50s), but I hope to teach my children what I was never taught about life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

can't you see the embedded misogyning in WOMEN having to be the ones to "hold" men to a "higher standard"?

+1. PP is attempting to sound understanding but her judgment and misogyny shines through.

[Anonymous]

Women ~ why are your opinions the "right" opinions?

Your spouse doesn't think xx needs to happen

Not done the way you want
Not done on your schedule
Not done as often

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women ~ why are your opinions the "right" opinions?

Your spouse doesn't think xx needs to happen

Not done the way you want
Not done on your schedule
Not done as often

I know I have all these crazy expectations that DH, the father of my children, will do things like pick their dirty diapers up off the floor. If only I could understand that life is subjective and there’s no need to remove feces from the areas where they play on any kind of specific time schedule!

And I need to just understand that it’s normal to sometimes get salmonella because DH doesn’t clean up the chicken juice off the counter and I assume it’s clean and end up preparing food on it.

You’re so right! I need to just chill out, thank you for suggesting that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

can't you see the embedded misogyning in WOMEN having to be the ones to "hold" men to a "higher standard"?

+1. PP is attempting to sound understanding but her judgment and misogyny shines through.

I am the pp and I don’t understand this. If I were talking about the larger societal issues that lead to a dynamic in a marriage I would say something different about how fathers do not raise their sons to be equal partners and capitalism assumes men don’t need to be home with kids and society drills gender roles into us from a young age and how we don’t teach out e daughters to love themselves enough.

But here I’m talking to actual women in actual bad relationships. And to those real women I say hold him to a high standard, because you deserve to be respected. I do not believe that is misogyny.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand it either OP, I also don't understand women who train their husbands.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous]Women ~ why are your opinions the "right" opinions?

Your spouse doesn't think xx needs to happen

Not done the way you want
Not done on your schedule
Not done as often

[/quote]

Really?
I am pretty sure that he thinks all of the things need to happen as often as I do and more. He just doesn’t think he needs to be the one doing them. To be fair, he doesn’t think that I should do them either. He thinks there should be a magic wand, or that the reason they aren’t done is because we don’t have good systems or good feng shui.

But yeah. He wants dinner (and a hot breakfast...not happening), clean sheets, clean laundry, a nice lawn, decorated and tidy home, happy and respectful kids who do well in school and sports, well maintained vehicles, friends and a social life, etc etc.

There was just a post on here the other day where a man got angry with his wife because the kids’ bathroom was a mess. Don’t tell me that men aren’t doing their fair share because they don’t care if it’s done. Men care just as much as women. They just don’t think they should have to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

can't you see the embedded misogyning in WOMEN having to be the ones to "hold" men to a "higher standard"?

+1. PP is attempting to sound understanding but her judgment and misogyny shines through.

I am the pp and I don’t understand this. If I were talking about the larger societal issues that lead to a dynamic in a marriage I would say something different about how fathers do not raise their sons to be equal partners and capitalism assumes men don’t need to be home with kids and society drills gender roles into us from a young age and how we don’t teach out e daughters to love themselves enough.

But here I’m talking to actual women in actual bad relationships. And to those real women I say hold him to a high standard, because you deserve to be respected. I do not believe that is misogyny.

But don’t you think that larger societal issues can play a part in actual bad relationships? Why do you think those societal issues are affecting some people and not others?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As usual, 90% of the posts in this thread are internalized misogyny.

The one that offends me most is the idea that any woman who struggles with allocating household duties and childcare with her spouse has somehow failed by either:

1) Being too dumb to marry a "good" husband
2) Being too obtuse to realize her husband sucks more than other husbands
3) Being too lazy to train her "bad" husband
4) Being too incompetent to just do it herself
5) Being too high-strung to just accept less than perfect
6) Being too poor to just hire it out

Imagine what the world would be like if, instead of constantly trying to prove that we alone figured out how to solve gender inequality in our specific marriage by just being smarter or prettier or more organized than all the other lesser women. Imagine if instead we supported each other. Imagine if every time some man said "Whatever, you're never happy anyway so why should I try", all the women backed that man's wife up and said "No, dumbass, you need to try harder."

But no, let's just keep doing this instead. It's working out GREAT.

Well said. Thank you.

I think it is difficult because there are two types of people here. People who could hold their husbands to a hire standard and women who are legitimately in shi**y relationships.

I'm honestly not sure what the latter want. If you suggest ways they could improve, they say those won't work and if you suggest leaving they say that won't work. And in some ways I fully believe them. But I do believe you can always leave if you are motivated enough, and I honestly don't know what the point is in just saying, 'ok I agree you are in a very difficult situation that has no easy solution so you should just endure it for the rest of your life'.

Men should be held to a higher standard and rise to it, women should not have to live with it, I fully fully agree with those two propositions, and yet I still feel like my posts are at least somewhat the kind of thing you're talking about.

can't you see the embedded misogyning in WOMEN having to be the ones to "hold" men to a "higher standard"?

+1. PP is attempting to sound understanding but her judgment and misogyny shines through.

I am the pp and I don’t understand this. If I were talking about the larger societal issues that lead to a dynamic in a marriage I would say something different about how fathers do not raise their sons to be equal partners and capitalism assumes men don’t need to be home with kids and society drills gender roles into us from a young age and how we don’t teach out e daughters to love themselves enough.

But here I’m talking to actual women in actual bad relationships. And to those real women I say hold him to a high standard, because you deserve to be respected. I do not believe that is misogyny.

But don’t you think that larger societal issues can play a part in actual bad relationships? Why do you think those societal issues are affecting some people and not others?

Why do you think that’s what I think? Of course the societal issues are why many of the women posting here are in the situation they are in. And that’s a problem that society needs to tackle. But changing society is useless to a woman in a crappy marriage. It will take decades and it won’t change the person she’s married to. So my advice to her has almost nothing to do with society. Problems like misogyny don’t really matter when you have two individual humans having their individual problems. Is the source of these problems systemic misogyny? Almost surely at least in part, but that doesn’t help them.

A woman in a bad marriage has three practical choices. Stay and fight, stay and give up, leave. The right choice depends on the man she’s with but prattling on about how society’s flaws led her to this place doesn’t actually help her. You don’t tell a black man wrongfully imprisoned to wait on society to realize it wronged him through systemic racism you get him a g*d dammed lawyer. Many of the women in this thread need lawyers not commiseration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wasn't the expert on these things when we were dating and first married. We were both a little clueless about it. We didn't cook much, and didn't really "grocery shop" the way that I do now. We cleaned some whenever people were coming over, but not other than that. I didn't see myself as being in a position to tell him if he got the right things at the grocery store or cleaned the bathroom correctly. WTF do I know?

None of this really mattered until we had children. When our oldest started crawling, walking, and eating normal food, my standards on what was acceptable changed. I could wear sandals and bathe in a dirty shower, but I wasn't going to bathe my baby in one. I could live without vacuuming for a month, but my baby was crawling all over the floors and putting his hands and every piece of dirt or lint in his mouth. DH and I could grab some food on our way home from work and eat in the car, but I wanted my toddler to have real food and family meals.

I started learning how to do all of these tasks and incorporate them into my life because I took on the bulk of the childcare (for all of the reasons that women normally do). DH didn't learn how to do them because he threw himself into work. We were probably 5 years into our marriage before I started feeling resentful that ALL of this was falling on me, and by that point it was really hard to change the dynamic.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I think the bolded is a key key key point and something everyone should really try to think about before having kids. Having childcare fall all on the mom IS a choice. I know it doesn't feel like one but it is. It is hard to force equality into that first year, but IMO it is one of the best things you can do for a marriage. Leave the baby with dad for hours and don't check in 15 times. Pump and if pumping doesn't work then supplement. I know this will set people off but I do not understand people that sacrifice their marriage for EBF. Early motherhood is uncomfortable, you learn to do all those things because you're in the moment and have to figure it out. Force your husband to go through that as well, even if it is uncomfortable for you (not you specifically pp just generally women) and it will pay dividends in the years to come.

+1000000. Every woman I know with a husband who isn’t a true partner was big into EBF. Flame away but my opinion is that EBF holds women back tremendously. It causes women to lose friendships, quit their jobs and be tied to their baby. Formula was marketed as a means to liberate women and it makes sense.

FWIW, I breastfed. It’s simply easy to see what EBF is doing to women. It starts with a mom who must be with a baby 24-7 and as a result, becomes the main caregiver and default parent. Then it never stops.

Best thing a new mom can do is supplement with some formula and get out of the house. Go out to dinner with a friend. Maintain your job and identify.