What is a Tiger Mom? If you are one how are you different from everyone else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A true Tiger mom doesn't care what the pudgy nose wrinkling mommies think about her. She's fine that their kids will pose no competition to hers. She's fine not to be included because she doesn't want to associate with Nelly the Nit Wit anyway. This, of course, infuriates Nelly the Nit Wit.

Oh, the irony.

It IS irony, isn't it? Damn you, Alanis Morissette!

[Anonymous]

13:42- I'm not some monster but I'm not going to spend a ton of time defending myself either. I will say withholding food/love is child abuse and I would never hold my kids to unrealistic expectations.

The point of my prior post is that I feel that people particularly lax parents who have problems with their kids feel threatened/anxious by the fact I do work hard with mine and as a result say some really horrible and untrue/uncalled for things. As I mentioned above, the "sole" proof from my family member that I am not satisfied with my kids performance is that they are required to do a certain number of enrichment activities per day during the summer. Is this any worse then allowing your kid to watch 4.5 hours of TV per day?


I take my kids to the library. I read with them. I teach them math. I take them to lessons of their choosing. It's not an open ended list but they have many different options to choose from. Once a year they have a choice of continuing with the particular activity that they originally started or trying a new one. I take them to the park/biking/ swimming for fun. They spend time with friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Either there is something you are not telling us about your parenting (are you constantly berating your kids in front of others? withholding love and food when they get a B?) or your friends and family are totally clueless. I'm as soft and cuddly as they come, and I try to encourage my kid's independence and creativity, but there are extra workbooks at my house too. Few people are so "innately smart" that they can learn things they've never been taught. Most of the kids who are accepted into advanced classes and "gifted" programs are there because their parents did extra work with them, not because they were born geniuses.

I am wondering about this too. My kids do extra work and have scheduled activities, I have family members whose kids don't do this, and nobody has ever accused me of being a tiger mother. Maybe the OP's family members are clueless and talk a lot. Or maybe the OP talks a lot about OP's admiration for tiger mothers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Bingo!

And this is why we have mediocre performance in schools. Parents will argue ad nauseum about how they care about education and the academic achievement of their children but they don't want to put in the effort involved in achieving results and resent tiger moms who do so claiming that they push their children needlessly.

When all else fails they blame the teachers, the lack of funding, the unfairness of testing, etc. What they will never do is to blame themselves for not doing what is needed to get their children on the right track.

This thread is a perfect illustration of why many of our kids are academically mediocre and many Asian kids excel. When 60% of the students at TJ are Asian, there is a lesson to be learned in that statistic. The lesson is not that Asians game the system as some non-Asian parents claim.

"Our" kids vs. "Asian" kids? Really? Who's "we", here?

"Our" kids = All kids irrespective of race, color or creed the majority of whom are not Asian

"Asian kids" = Asian kids whether they are American citizens or immigrants

"We" = The US where collectively our kids are falling behind compared to other nations

Question: Why do Asian kids do so much better in school than non-Asian kids? Is it in the genes or is it some sort of cultural advantage? Could it just be the right type of parental involvement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A true Tiger mom doesn't care what the pudgy nose wrinkling mommies think about her. She's fine that their kids will pose no competition to hers. She's fine not to be included because she doesn't want to associate with Nelly the Nit Wit anyway. This, of course, infuriates Nelly the Nit Wit.

Inflammatory language that I would not have used. But, in essence, PP is correct: Tiger moms don't give a flying hoot what others think about their parenting methods because it works.

[Anonymous]

OP, back to your original question "How are you different from other parents who have high expectations for their kids?"

I don't consider myself a tiger mom, but I am Asian. Yes, I have expectations that my kids will do well in school because:

1. I can see they are bright
2. I want to instill in them to work hard, try your best
3. Both DH and I are immigrants. My parents worked hard to give us a better life, and so they'd better take the opportunity and not waste it

Having stated that, how am I different from other high-expectation type parents?

1. I allow playdates.. and not just with high achievers, unlike you... yes, I've posted here before
2. I let them on electronics, sometimes even on school days
3. I don't expect As or ESs or P's or whatever in every subject. Everyone has a weak spot. I recognize that.
4. I let them have a lot of free time to just play, be imaginitive. I don't structure their entire day. For the most part, as long as HW gets done, 15 to 20min piano practice is done, they have free time
5. They have 2 activities at most per week. Mostly, it's once a week. Again, I'm a firm believer in downtime and play time.
6. When DC got into HGC, DC didn't want to go initially. We didn't push DC. We talked to DC about it, and went to the Open House. But ultimately, we let DC make the final decision. I'm thinking most tiger parents wouldn't let their kids have the final say in this.
7. We don't have tutors or use tutoring classes. I'm guessing most tiger parents do send their kids to some sort of tutoring class. IDK, just a guess - seems like most of the tiger moms I see do send their kids to tutoring.
8. We emphasize way more on being a good person rather than doing well in school. We're lucky in that DCs are pretty bright, and they love to read for pleasure. Maybe if they weren't that bright we might emphasize academics more, but for now, we don't.

If there were only two options: 1. Get into ivy, but be a spoiled, entitled brat 2. Go to a no-name school, but be a good person and happy with their lives -- I pick option #2.

Yes, I recognize IRL there is option #3 where you can have best of both worlds, but there were only the two choices, I pick #2.

So there you go - OP. This is how I'm different from most tiger parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP again. I saw a family member last night who told me in casual conversation after church that I was making bad choices with regards to the way that I'm raising my kids. She actually told me that when my kids get to college that they will most likely do drugs and will flunk out because I won't be able to supervise them and they won't be able to handle their new found "freedom" and this made me think of Tiger mom's posting above particularly the statement in bold. The family member also said that I'm destroying my kid's confidence because I'm never satisfied with my kid's accomplishments with her proof being that my kids are required to do special summer workbooks/extra reading/ other types of practice. I wish I could feel as assured as the Tiger mom as these statements really do hurt me.

I also find it ironic that certain family members (not just the one above) tell me that they are proud of my kids academic accomplishments, comment on the caring and compassionate nature of my kids, are surprised by my kids lack of material interests, but yet tell me in almost the same breathe that I'm raising my kids completely wrong. I hold my tongue as there really isn't any use of trying to convince them. They don't believe the fact that I work with them has helped, according to them my kids are just "smart" innately. I find the ones most vocal and dismissive are the ones who both have kids with problems and have a parenting style opposite of mine.

OP, my advice, and I will paraphrase my doctor who when I asked how vigorously I can exercise given a medical issue, I was told to "listen to your body"!

I would say the same when it comes to how your children are faring in terms of your parenting. If they are interacting well with people, doing well academically, are generally happy, have friends and like being with their parents, you are doing fine. So listen and learn from your children.

[Anonymous]

I know I am not a tiger mom because I am not focused on my children being high achievers. I want them to try their best, be kind, be respectful, and try to leave the world around them better than they found it. I am uninterested in whether they can figure skate, throw a ball well, play an instrument, fly on a trapeze or whatever. I am not concerned about their ability to make a living as adults, nor do I think these kinds of hobbies will improve their ability to do so. I know they are bright and personable and responsible, which are traits that have made for the best co-workers in my experience.

Lest I be dismissed as ignorant, I will mention that I am a professional and I went to a very highly regarded college. I spent those years shocked at the immaturity and self-centeredness of many of my classmates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Either there is something you are not telling us about your parenting (are you constantly berating your kids in front of others? withholding love and food when they get a B?) or your friends and family are totally clueless. I'm as soft and cuddly as they come, and I try to encourage my kid's independence and creativity, but there are extra workbooks at my house too. Few people are so "innately smart" that they can learn things they've never been taught. Most of the kids who are accepted into advanced classes and "gifted" programs are there because their parents did extra work with them, not because they were born geniuses.

I am wondering about this too. My kids do extra work and have scheduled activities, I have family members whose kids don't do this, and nobody has ever accused me of being a tiger mother. Maybe the OP's family members are clueless and talk a lot. Or maybe the OP talks a lot about OP's admiration for tiger mothers.

Or maybe you are White and only Asians get accused of being Tiger Moms if their kids do well?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Either there is something you are not telling us about your parenting (are you constantly berating your kids in front of others? withholding love and food when they get a B?) or your friends and family are totally clueless. I'm as soft and cuddly as they come, and I try to encourage my kid's independence and creativity, but there are extra workbooks at my house too. Few people are so "innately smart" that they can learn things they've never been taught. Most of the kids who are accepted into advanced classes and "gifted" programs are there because their parents did extra work with them, not because they were born geniuses.

I am wondering about this too. My kids do extra work and have scheduled activities, I have family members whose kids don't do this, and nobody has ever accused me of being a tiger mother. Maybe the OP's family members are clueless and talk a lot. Or maybe the OP talks a lot about OP's admiration for tiger mothers.

Or maybe you are White and only Asians get accused of being Tiger Moms if their kids do well?

No, OP has said repeatedly that OP is not Asian.

[Anonymous]

OP here- Yes I'm white but the majority of things my kids are involved in outside the house are heavily dominated by Asians and my family knows my kids participate in these activities. I'm being purposely vague so that I can keep my identity anonymous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway. I would say the same of someone who only wants to pursue medicine because it pays well. They'd be a terrible doctor. I don't think PP's lesson in finances adds up to Tiger Mom level of pressure. It's important for all kids to understand what things cost, just as it's important for parents to respect their kids' choice to become a starving artist -- if it is done in service to a great passion and calling, not just out of ignorance.

I am amazed at the erroneous and misleading information that is being posted.

Teachers may not be paid a substantial amount but they have a very strong union that safeguards them in terms of job security and benefits. Most teachers - hard as this may be to believe - don't have a profound calling that makes them choose teaching as a profession. Yes, there are exceptions and I admire such teachers - I have come across a few. My niece became a teacher not because she is passionate about teaching but because she sort of fell into it. She is not untypical and it does not make her a bad teacher.

With regard to doctors, when you say they are in it for the money you are are displaying your ignorance. I say this because there are several doctors in my family and extended family. By the time they are in a position to start making a decent income, they are in their early thirties. It takes four years of undergrad, four years of med school and then another four to six years of internship and residency before they are board certified. During residency they make enough to live and often work 60-80 hours a week. Quite apart from the academic rigors involved in becoming a doctor, they usually have debt of $250-300K at the very least paying for medical school and related expenditures unless their parents are in a position to help them out.

Once they are done most specialties make $150K - $200K; there are a few that make more and they are very difficult specialties to get into from a standpoint of residency.

You don't become a doctor because you want to make money! There is a prestige associated with being a doctor and you can lead a comfortable life and that is about it.

I am fully aware of the rigors of becoming a doctor. But not every kid who wants to become a doctor (or is pushed by her parents to become one) knows all this. All I was saying is someone choosing to be a doctor because it is hard and you have to be really smart, or because it is prestigious, or because (eventually) you'll make decent money, should be dissuaded from doing so, just as someone choosing to be a teacher because of long summer vacations, or strong unions, or because they aren't good at anything else, should be encouraged to look elsewhere. Sorry for the pathos, but there are plenty of other professions you can "fall into" or make good money at that don't involve dealing with death and human suffering every day or shaping the hearts and minds of children.

Perhaps you should go back and look at what you posted - I have shown it in bold.

My point is that no one in their right mind would choose to become a doctor for the money when there are other professions that pay as well or even better without the rigorous study, length of training and debt to be incurred. I have a friend who is a doctor and his two sons both chose not to become doctors although he encouraged them to consider medicine as a profession. They are both investment bankers and make close to a million dollars a year. They have comparatively little debt, began earning at a much younger age and are making more money than any doctor would other than a select few.

You have an idealistic view of how people should choose their professions; the reality is that most people who pursue professions whether it is teaching, medicine, nursing, social work, policemen, etc do it because they want a job. My parents were both teachers - and they were very good teachers but they were not passionate about teaching or imparting knowledge to children. They were like most teachers who were conscientious and did the best job they could.

NP here. $150K isn't peanuts by any means, plus it's an entry salary. You make it sound like the choice is between a teacher because you fall into it, vs. an investment bank for the money, vs. a doctor for... no good reason, according to you, because the pay sucks. That's just not accurate in the larger scheme of things, because $150K is actually a pretty good salary for a job that involves helping people (if you doubt this, look around to not-for-profits and teaching). Plus, you haven't accounted for the status and prestige associated with being a doctor vs. being, say, an investment banker.

FWIW, you sound very unpleasant, as if for some reason of your own you have to attack that PP, and you have to win. We get it, you know a handful of people who were teachers and doctors, in your own little circle. But I think it's dangerous for you to draw global conclusions from your own experiences.

I have been mulling over how best to respond to your comments without being "unpleasant" as you put it. I will merely say that you should re-read the posts and see if your comments are germane to the issues I raised.

Winning an argument especially on an anonymous forum is a rather pointless exercise. I attempted to demonstrate the lack of validity of the PP's comments about the incomes of doctors and teachers. Incurring $300K in debt - on which interest must be paid - to attain the training to earn $150K annually commencing at the age of 30+ is not the best return on investment if the goal in becoming a doctor is to make money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Thanks to those who are concerned about the tinges of racism that surface in some posts. As an Asian, I assure you that most of these comments about the traits of Asian children don't bother us a bit - it is like water off a duck's back. We are fine with our methods of parenting and we know how it impacts our children. I really believe the plethora of threads about tiger parenting on this and other forums is more than likely indicative of an element of insecurity by those who utilize more conventional approaches. I say this because I cannot think of another explanation of why tiger parenting repeatedly comes up with the attendant suggestions of Asian children lacking creativity, initiative, leadership abilities, etc.

Tiger parenting is a lot of work for the parents and we imbue in our children an expectation of achievement and excellence. They don't need to excel in all subjects but we do make a point of motivating them to achieve their full potential. If that entails "pushing" them to do so, we have no hesitation in doing so. Yes, we limit TV and playing video games, give more focus to academics as opposed to sports, we emphasize respect to those older than them, etc.

No regrets or apologies from this parent ...... and no suggestion that other approaches to parenting are inferior and certainly no suggestion that others should adopt our approach.

OP again. I saw a family member last night who told me in casual conversation after church that I was making bad choices with regards to the way that I'm raising my kids. She actually told me that when my kids get to college that they will most likely do drugs and will flunk out because I won't be able to supervise them and they won't be able to handle their new found "freedom" and this made me think of Tiger mom's posting above particularly the statement in bold. The family member also said that I'm destroying my kid's confidence because I'm never satisfied with my kid's accomplishments with her proof being that my kids are required to do special summer workbooks/extra reading/ other types of practice. I wish I could feel as assured as the Tiger mom as these statements really do hurt me.

I also find it ironic that certain family members (not just the one above) tell me that they are proud of my kids academic accomplishments, comment on the caring and compassionate nature of my kids, are surprised by my kids lack of material interests, but yet tell me in almost the same breathe that I'm raising my kids completely wrong. I hold my tongue as there really isn't any use of trying to convince them. They don't believe the fact that I work with them has helped, according to them my kids are just "smart" innately. I find the ones most vocal and dismissive are the ones who both have kids with problems and have a parenting style opposite of mine.

The fact that so many people in your family are critical speaks volumes to me. Isn't everyone a parenting style opposite to yours, in your mind?

There are some children of tiger parents who turn out just fine. The ones who don;t blame their parents' pressure and over-involvement. That also speaks volumes.

[Anonymous]

Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway.

Good grief. Teaching is not a calling at all. Teaching is a profession that less intelligent people choose over becoming an administrative assistant. Teachers, as a group, have the lowest SAT scores, lowest IQs, and lowest GPAs. They all may say "Its a calling" but if they had better skills or more academic potential they would have chosen something else.

Saying "teaching is a calling" is as dumb as saying " being a SAHM is the toughest job in the world". Neither are true but they make the people in those position feel good about themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway.

Good grief. Teaching is not a calling at all. Teaching is a profession that less intelligent people choose over becoming an administrative assistant. Teachers, as a group, have the lowest SAT scores, lowest IQs, and lowest GPAs. They all may say "Its a calling" but if they had better skills or more academic potential they would have chosen something else.

Saying "teaching is a calling" is as dumb as saying " being a SAHM is the toughest job in the world". Neither are true but they make the people in those position feel good about themselves.

Did you bring this attitude with you to the parent-teacher conferences? I feel sad for your children's teachers.