What is a Tiger Mom? If you are one how are you different from everyone else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I would much rather my DC be a teacher than an MBA/executive. Teaching is a higher calling. I have several friends who are teachers married to teachers and they aren't poor. They certainly don't earn as much as executives but they can raise their families.

Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway. I would say the same of someone who only wants to pursue medicine because it pays well. They'd be a terrible doctor. I don't think PP's lesson in finances adds up to Tiger Mom level of pressure. It's important for all kids to understand what things cost, just as it's important for parents to respect their kids' choice to become a starving artist -- if it is done in service to a great passion and calling, not just out of ignorance.

Most children are very persuadable and can be steered away from a passion by their parents. It doesn'thave to look stron, to an external viewer.

Also, most of us know that being a teachet, artist, etc., is hard. Doing it without support and against your parents wishes is even harder. It definitely shows the difference between Tiger parenting and supporting your child in their dreams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I wasn't there, of course, and different people have different values. But "If you become a teacher, no way will you be able to spend all the money we spend" is not what I consider support. Nor do I consider financial compensation the only measure of success.

Not the PP but it is ludicrous to equate telling a child about financial realities as constituting lack of support. And of course success is more than just making money.

[Anonymous]

This is not entirely true. Not all accomplished classical musicians were tiger parented. My sister and I were not tiger parented and she is an employed and very accomplished classical musician. Anyway, from the moment her fingers first touched the piano keys at around age 6-7 she was in LOVE. Every day after school she'd head straight to the piano and "practice" (or just have fun inventing music) for hours and hours at a time. I remember once when she was about 12 she discovered my dad's video cassettes of Wagner's Ring Cycle and she spent the entire weekend watching it entranced. I don't think our parents, even once, reminded her to go and practice piano or the other instrument which she now plays professionally. She just loved it from the beginning and spend literally all her free time doing it as it was such a joy to her. I, on the other hand, never practiced the piano and my parents had to force me to play. Music is not my passion.

Now, as an adult, I'm actually jealous of my sister as she is the one person I know who truly loves every second of her job. It's her passion and it's what she was born to do. Not many people can say that. She doesn't make a lot of money but she's able to survive.

I posted the story above but I think I somehow messed up the quotes so it got buried.

Can I add that my sister is also very good at math and has a degree in a STEM field. But her passion is music and you only live once. When it was decision making time she decided to go for the music career even though at first she had to work in mindless jobs on the side to make ends meet. She lucked out and got an actual job a few years after making the decision to go into music. If she had not (she was only in her mid-20s) she could easily have gone back and done a graduate degree in something more practical. Since she did "make it" in music she didn't have to do that but her plan was to re-evaluate when she hit 30 if she still hadn't 'made it' in the music world. Can I say that she doesn not make a large income but her husband has a more regular job so they make ends meet (not well paying though) . Despite their lack of money they have a wonderful life. There is a lot more to life than making six figures.

[Anonymous]

You have to decide if it's worth struggling financially your whole life to be happy professionally. For me, it wouldn't be, so I do a job I'm good at and enjoy sometimes, but don't love, so I can be secure financially. But I never had a passion like PP's sister did with her music.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is not entirely true. Not all accomplished classical musicians were tiger parented. My sister and I were not tiger parented and she is an employed and very accomplished classical musician. Anyway, from the moment her fingers first touched the piano keys at around age 6-7 she was in LOVE. Every day after school she'd head straight to the piano and "practice" (or just have fun inventing music) for hours and hours at a time. I remember once when she was about 12 she discovered my dad's video cassettes of Wagner's Ring Cycle and she spent the entire weekend watching it entranced. I don't think our parents, even once, reminded her to go and practice piano or the other instrument which she now plays professionally. She just loved it from the beginning and spend literally all her free time doing it as it was such a joy to her. I, on the other hand, never practiced the piano and my parents had to force me to play. Music is not my passion.

Now, as an adult, I'm actually jealous of my sister as she is the one person I know who truly loves every second of her job. It's her passion and it's what she was born to do. Not many people can say that. She doesn't make a lot of money but she's able to survive.

I posted the story above but I think I somehow messed up the quotes so it got buried.

Can I add that my sister is also very good at math and has a degree in a STEM field. But her passion is music and you only live once. When it was decision making time she decided to go for the music career even though at first she had to work in mindless jobs on the side to make ends meet. She lucked out and got an actual job a few years after making the decision to go into music. If she had not (she was only in her mid-20s) she could easily have gone back and done a graduate degree in something more practical. Since she did "make it" in music she didn't have to do that but her plan was to re-evaluate when she hit 30 if she still hadn't 'made it' in the music world. Can I say that she doesn not make a large income but her husband has a more regular job so they make ends meet (not well paying though) . Despite their lack of money they have a wonderful life. There is a lot more to life than making six figures.

Your sister sounds wonderful, clearly passionate about music but grounded and realistic as well. It's a sad thought that if she had had "tiger parents" she might not have had the same chance to find her own path in life. I never said all accomplished musicians were tiger-parented, just that most (not all) kids who are making a choice between Julliard and MIT in 12th grade had to have received a lot of coaching to get there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway. I would say the same of someone who only wants to pursue medicine because it pays well. They'd be a terrible doctor. I don't think PP's lesson in finances adds up to Tiger Mom level of pressure. It's important for all kids to understand what things cost, just as it's important for parents to respect their kids' choice to become a starving artist -- if it is done in service to a great passion and calling, not just out of ignorance.

I am amazed at the erroneous and misleading information that is being posted.

Teachers may not be paid a substantial amount but they have a very strong union that safeguards them in terms of job security and benefits. Most teachers - hard as this may be to believe - don't have a profound calling that makes them choose teaching as a profession. Yes, there are exceptions and I admire such teachers - I have come across a few. My niece became a teacher not because she is passionate about teaching but because she sort of fell into it. She is not untypical and it does not make her a bad teacher.

With regard to doctors, when you say they are in it for the money you are are displaying your ignorance. I say this because there are several doctors in my family and extended family. By the time they are in a position to start making a decent income, they are in their early thirties. It takes four years of undergrad, four years of med school and then another four to six years of internship and residency before they are board certified. During residency they make enough to live and often work 60-80 hours a week. Quite apart from the academic rigors involved in becoming a doctor, they usually have debt of $250-300K at the very least paying for medical school and related expenditures unless their parents are in a position to help them out.

Once they are done most specialties make $150K - $200K; there are a few that make more and they are very difficult specialties to get into from a standpoint of residency.

You don't become a doctor because you want to make money! There is a prestige associated with being a doctor and you can lead a comfortable life and that is about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway. I would say the same of someone who only wants to pursue medicine because it pays well. They'd be a terrible doctor. I don't think PP's lesson in finances adds up to Tiger Mom level of pressure. It's important for all kids to understand what things cost, just as it's important for parents to respect their kids' choice to become a starving artist -- if it is done in service to a great passion and calling, not just out of ignorance.

I am amazed at the erroneous and misleading information that is being posted.

Teachers may not be paid a substantial amount but they have a very strong union that safeguards them in terms of job security and benefits. Most teachers - hard as this may be to believe - don't have a profound calling that makes them choose teaching as a profession. Yes, there are exceptions and I admire such teachers - I have come across a few. My niece became a teacher not because she is passionate about teaching but because she sort of fell into it. She is not untypical and it does not make her a bad teacher.

With regard to doctors, when you say they are in it for the money you are are displaying your ignorance. I say this because there are several doctors in my family and extended family. By the time they are in a position to start making a decent income, they are in their early thirties. It takes four years of undergrad, four years of med school and then another four to six years of internship and residency before they are board certified. During residency they make enough to live and often work 60-80 hours a week. Quite apart from the academic rigors involved in becoming a doctor, they usually have debt of $250-300K at the very least paying for medical school and related expenditures unless their parents are in a position to help them out.

Once they are done most specialties make $150K - $200K; there are a few that make more and they are very difficult specialties to get into from a standpoint of residency.

You don't become a doctor because you want to make money! There is a prestige associated with being a doctor and you can lead a comfortable life and that is about it.

I am fully aware of the rigors of becoming a doctor. But not every kid who wants to become a doctor (or is pushed by her parents to become one) knows all this. All I was saying is someone choosing to be a doctor because it is hard and you have to be really smart, or because it is prestigious, or because (eventually) you'll make decent money, should be dissuaded from doing so, just as someone choosing to be a teacher because of long summer vacations, or strong unions, or because they aren't good at anything else, should be encouraged to look elsewhere. Sorry for the pathos, but there are plenty of other professions you can "fall into" or make good money at that don't involve dealing with death and human suffering every day or shaping the hearts and minds of children.

[Anonymous]

There's a spectrum here.

We have many Chinese and Indian friends. The school systems that they went to were incredibly competitive. Only the high performers get an opportunity to go to the national universities. The middle performers who fall off out rank the high performer in US schools. There is no " a C student can be a teacher or some other less competitive profession". They studied until 10 pm every night not just because their parents expected it but because this is how the system worked. Americans just can't understand the level of competition that a hugely dense population create. If you do not work hard, you are lost and there is no safety net. You have visible reminders of poverty unlike anything we see here in every city.

Here the education system goes in the opposite direction. Competition is hidden until college. Schools focus on getting kids to just average. Everyone gets a P or a C and it doesn't matter. Everyone can go to college if they can afford it and if they can't they can take out loans. A C student can be a teacher or go into sales. The education system is just far below what they experienced because we don't have the competition for jobs/professions that other countries experience.

I think this makes them very nervous and they are too risk adverse to realize Americans celebrate the C student and don't value academic achievement. They don't push their kids anything like what they experienced but they do balance it out which to us appears very intense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway. I would say the same of someone who only wants to pursue medicine because it pays well. They'd be a terrible doctor. I don't think PP's lesson in finances adds up to Tiger Mom level of pressure. It's important for all kids to understand what things cost, just as it's important for parents to respect their kids' choice to become a starving artist -- if it is done in service to a great passion and calling, not just out of ignorance.

I am amazed at the erroneous and misleading information that is being posted.

Teachers may not be paid a substantial amount but they have a very strong union that safeguards them in terms of job security and benefits. Most teachers - hard as this may be to believe - don't have a profound calling that makes them choose teaching as a profession. Yes, there are exceptions and I admire such teachers - I have come across a few. My niece became a teacher not because she is passionate about teaching but because she sort of fell into it. She is not untypical and it does not make her a bad teacher.

With regard to doctors, when you say they are in it for the money you are are displaying your ignorance. I say this because there are several doctors in my family and extended family. By the time they are in a position to start making a decent income, they are in their early thirties. It takes four years of undergrad, four years of med school and then another four to six years of internship and residency before they are board certified. During residency they make enough to live and often work 60-80 hours a week. Quite apart from the academic rigors involved in becoming a doctor, they usually have debt of $250-300K at the very least paying for medical school and related expenditures unless their parents are in a position to help them out.

Once they are done most specialties make $150K - $200K; there are a few that make more and they are very difficult specialties to get into from a standpoint of residency.

You don't become a doctor because you want to make money! There is a prestige associated with being a doctor and you can lead a comfortable life and that is about it.

I am fully aware of the rigors of becoming a doctor. But not every kid who wants to become a doctor (or is pushed by her parents to become one) knows all this. All I was saying is someone choosing to be a doctor because it is hard and you have to be really smart, or because it is prestigious, or because (eventually) you'll make decent money, should be dissuaded from doing so, just as someone choosing to be a teacher because of long summer vacations, or strong unions, or because they aren't good at anything else, should be encouraged to look elsewhere. Sorry for the pathos, but there are plenty of other professions you can "fall into" or make good money at that don't involve dealing with death and human suffering every day or shaping the hearts and minds of children.

Perhaps you should go back and look at what you posted - I have shown it in bold.

My point is that no one in their right mind would choose to become a doctor for the money when there are other professions that pay as well or even better without the rigorous study, length of training and debt to be incurred. I have a friend who is a doctor and his two sons both chose not to become doctors although he encouraged them to consider medicine as a profession. They are both investment bankers and make close to a million dollars a year. They have comparatively little debt, began earning at a much younger age and are making more money than any doctor would other than a select few.

You have an idealistic view of how people should choose their professions; the reality is that most people who pursue professions whether it is teaching, medicine, nursing, social work, policemen, etc do it because they want a job. My parents were both teachers - and they were very good teachers but they were not passionate about teaching or imparting knowledge to children. They were like most teachers who were conscientious and did the best job they could.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway. I would say the same of someone who only wants to pursue medicine because it pays well. They'd be a terrible doctor. I don't think PP's lesson in finances adds up to Tiger Mom level of pressure. It's important for all kids to understand what things cost, just as it's important for parents to respect their kids' choice to become a starving artist -- if it is done in service to a great passion and calling, not just out of ignorance.

I am amazed at the erroneous and misleading information that is being posted.

Teachers may not be paid a substantial amount but they have a very strong union that safeguards them in terms of job security and benefits. Most teachers - hard as this may be to believe - don't have a profound calling that makes them choose teaching as a profession. Yes, there are exceptions and I admire such teachers - I have come across a few. My niece became a teacher not because she is passionate about teaching but because she sort of fell into it. She is not untypical and it does not make her a bad teacher.

With regard to doctors, when you say they are in it for the money you are are displaying your ignorance. I say this because there are several doctors in my family and extended family. By the time they are in a position to start making a decent income, they are in their early thirties. It takes four years of undergrad, four years of med school and then another four to six years of internship and residency before they are board certified. During residency they make enough to live and often work 60-80 hours a week. Quite apart from the academic rigors involved in becoming a doctor, they usually have debt of $250-300K at the very least paying for medical school and related expenditures unless their parents are in a position to help them out.

Once they are done most specialties make $150K - $200K; there are a few that make more and they are very difficult specialties to get into from a standpoint of residency.

You don't become a doctor because you want to make money! There is a prestige associated with being a doctor and you can lead a comfortable life and that is about it.

I am fully aware of the rigors of becoming a doctor. But not every kid who wants to become a doctor (or is pushed by her parents to become one) knows all this. All I was saying is someone choosing to be a doctor because it is hard and you have to be really smart, or because it is prestigious, or because (eventually) you'll make decent money, should be dissuaded from doing so, just as someone choosing to be a teacher because of long summer vacations, or strong unions, or because they aren't good at anything else, should be encouraged to look elsewhere. Sorry for the pathos, but there are plenty of other professions you can "fall into" or make good money at that don't involve dealing with death and human suffering every day or shaping the hearts and minds of children.

Perhaps you should go back and look at what you posted - I have shown it in bold.

My point is that no one in their right mind would choose to become a doctor for the money when there are other professions that pay as well or even better without the rigorous study, length of training and debt to be incurred. I have a friend who is a doctor and his two sons both chose not to become doctors although he encouraged them to consider medicine as a profession. They are both investment bankers and make close to a million dollars a year. They have comparatively little debt, began earning at a much younger age and are making more money than any doctor would other than a select few.

You have an idealistic view of how people should choose their professions; the reality is that most people who pursue professions whether it is teaching, medicine, nursing, social work, policemen, etc do it because they want a job. My parents were both teachers - and they were very good teachers but they were not passionate about teaching or imparting knowledge to children. They were like most teachers who were conscientious and did the best job they could.

NP here. $150K isn't peanuts by any means, plus it's an entry salary. You make it sound like the choice is between a teacher because you fall into it, vs. an investment bank for the money, vs. a doctor for... no good reason, according to you, because the pay sucks. That's just not accurate in the larger scheme of things, because $150K is actually a pretty good salary for a job that involves helping people (if you doubt this, look around to not-for-profits and teaching). Plus, you haven't accounted for the status and prestige associated with being a doctor vs. being, say, an investment banker.

FWIW, you sound very unpleasant, as if for some reason of your own you have to attack that PP, and you have to win. We get it, you know a handful of people who were teachers and doctors, in your own little circle. But I think it's dangerous for you to draw global conclusions from your own experiences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Here the education system goes in the opposite direction. Competition is hidden until college. Schools focus on getting kids to just average. Everyone gets a P or a C and it doesn't matter. Everyone can go to college if they can afford it and if they can't they can take out loans. A C student can be a teacher or go into sales. The education system is just far below what they experienced because we don't have the competition for jobs/professions that other countries experience.

I think this makes them very nervous and they are too risk adverse to realize Americans celebrate the C student and don't value academic achievement. They don't push their kids anything like what they experienced but they do balance it out which to us appears very intense.

Bingo!

And this is why we have mediocre performance in schools. Parents will argue ad nauseum about how they care about education and the academic achievement of their children but they don't want to put in the effort involved in achieving results and resent tiger moms who do so claiming that they push their children needlessly.

When all else fails they blame the teachers, the lack of funding, the unfairness of testing, etc. What they will never do is to blame themselves for not doing what is needed to get their children on the right track.

This thread is a perfect illustration of why many of our kids are academically mediocre and many Asian kids excel. When 60% of the students at TJ are Asian, there is a lesson to be learned in that statistic. The lesson is not that Asians game the system as some non-Asian parents claim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Bingo!

And this is why we have mediocre performance in schools. Parents will argue ad nauseum about how they care about education and the academic achievement of their children but they don't want to put in the effort involved in achieving results and resent tiger moms who do so claiming that they push their children needlessly.

When all else fails they blame the teachers, the lack of funding, the unfairness of testing, etc. What they will never do is to blame themselves for not doing what is needed to get their children on the right track.

This thread is a perfect illustration of why many of our kids are academically mediocre and many Asian kids excel. When 60% of the students at TJ are Asian, there is a lesson to be learned in that statistic. The lesson is not that Asians game the system as some non-Asian parents claim.

"Our" kids vs. "Asian" kids? Really? Who's "we", here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Thanks to those who are concerned about the tinges of racism that surface in some posts. As an Asian, I assure you that most of these comments about the traits of Asian children don't bother us a bit - it is like water off a duck's back. We are fine with our methods of parenting and we know how it impacts our children. I really believe the plethora of threads about tiger parenting on this and other forums is more than likely indicative of an element of insecurity by those who utilize more conventional approaches. I say this because I cannot think of another explanation of why tiger parenting repeatedly comes up with the attendant suggestions of Asian children lacking creativity, initiative, leadership abilities, etc.

Tiger parenting is a lot of work for the parents and we imbue in our children an expectation of achievement and excellence. They don't need to excel in all subjects but we do make a point of motivating them to achieve their full potential. If that entails "pushing" them to do so, we have no hesitation in doing so. Yes, we limit TV and playing video games, give more focus to academics as opposed to sports, we emphasize respect to those older than them, etc.

No regrets or apologies from this parent ...... and no suggestion that other approaches to parenting are inferior and certainly no suggestion that others should adopt our approach.

OP again. I saw a family member last night who told me in casual conversation after church that I was making bad choices with regards to the way that I'm raising my kids. She actually told me that when my kids get to college that they will most likely do drugs and will flunk out because I won't be able to supervise them and they won't be able to handle their new found "freedom" and this made me think of Tiger mom's posting above particularly the statement in bold. The family member also said that I'm destroying my kid's confidence because I'm never satisfied with my kid's accomplishments with her proof being that my kids are required to do special summer workbooks/extra reading/ other types of practice. I wish I could feel as assured as the Tiger mom as these statements really do hurt me.

I also find it ironic that certain family members (not just the one above) tell me that they are proud of my kids academic accomplishments, comment on the caring and compassionate nature of my kids, are surprised by my kids lack of material interests, but yet tell me in almost the same breathe that I'm raising my kids completely wrong. I hold my tongue as there really isn't any use of trying to convince them. They don't believe the fact that I work with them has helped, according to them my kids are just "smart" innately. I find the ones most vocal and dismissive are the ones who both have kids with problems and have a parenting style opposite of mine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Thanks to those who are concerned about the tinges of racism that surface in some posts. As an Asian, I assure you that most of these comments about the traits of Asian children don't bother us a bit - it is like water off a duck's back. We are fine with our methods of parenting and we know how it impacts our children. I really believe the plethora of threads about tiger parenting on this and other forums is more than likely indicative of an element of insecurity by those who utilize more conventional approaches. I say this because I cannot think of another explanation of why tiger parenting repeatedly comes up with the attendant suggestions of Asian children lacking creativity, initiative, leadership abilities, etc.

Tiger parenting is a lot of work for the parents and we imbue in our children an expectation of achievement and excellence. They don't need to excel in all subjects but we do make a point of motivating them to achieve their full potential. If that entails "pushing" them to do so, we have no hesitation in doing so. Yes, we limit TV and playing video games, give more focus to academics as opposed to sports, we emphasize respect to those older than them, etc.

No regrets or apologies from this parent ...... and no suggestion that other approaches to parenting are inferior and certainly no suggestion that others should adopt our approach.

OP again. I saw a family member last night who told me in casual conversation after church that I was making bad choices with regards to the way that I'm raising my kids. She actually told me that when my kids get to college that they will most likely do drugs and will flunk out because I won't be able to supervise them and they won't be able to handle their new found "freedom" and this made me think of Tiger mom's posting above particularly the statement in bold. The family member also said that I'm destroying my kid's confidence because I'm never satisfied with my kid's accomplishments with her proof being that my kids are required to do special summer workbooks/extra reading/ other types of practice. I wish I could feel as assured as the Tiger mom as these statements really do hurt me.

I also find it ironic that certain family members (not just the one above) tell me that they are proud of my kids academic accomplishments, comment on the caring and compassionate nature of my kids, are surprised by my kids lack of material interests, but yet tell me in almost the same breathe that I'm raising my kids completely wrong. I hold my tongue as there really isn't any use of trying to convince them. They don't believe the fact that I work with them has helped, according to them my kids are just "smart" innately. I find the ones most vocal and dismissive are the ones who both have kids with problems and have a parenting style opposite of mine.

Either there is something you are not telling us about your parenting (are you constantly berating your kids in front of others? withholding love and food when they get a B?) or your friends and family are totally clueless. I'm as soft and cuddly as they come, and I try to encourage my kid's independence and creativity, but there are extra workbooks at my house too. Few people are so "innately smart" that they can learn things they've never been taught. Most of the kids who are accepted into advanced classes and "gifted" programs are there because their parents did extra work with them, not because they were born geniuses.

[Anonymous]

A true Tiger mom doesn't care what the pudgy nose wrinkling mommies think about her. She's fine that their kids will pose no competition to hers. She's fine not to be included because she doesn't want to associate with Nelly the Nit Wit anyway. This, of course, infuriates Nelly the Nit Wit.