What’s the end game plan for a cheating husband?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes it's an exit affair and he wants out of the marriage. Google it, it's a thing.

Not as typical for men, but very common for married women in affairs. 65% unhappily married women in affairs looking for it as an exit, compared to only 20% of men, and only 2% actually marry the AP.

+1.

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but seriously how is this even a question. Most men have a strong desire to have sex.

Sometimes they just want to be with variety of women.
Sometimes they want to be with a woman who is hotter/younger than their wife
Sometimes they want to feel wanted/desired
Sometimes they have a sex addiction
Sometimes they are looking for different/wilder/kinkier sex than they have at home
Sometimes they enjoy the thrill of getting one over their wife
Sometimes they are approached or see an opportunity and they think that they won't get caught so it will be OK

Most of the time, they are cheating to get it in because they can, not some grand scheme to eventually divorce and marry the AP.

You forgot: Sometimes they hate women and enjoy the thrill of duping a woman into thinking he cares so that she will relent and have sex with him with the belief they have a sincere relationship, aka rape by fraud.

First, this is not rape by fraud. Sheesh. Don't water down the trauma of rape.

Second, this is not at all a common reason for men to have affairs. Maybe this happened to you, but then I wonder why you married a sociopath.

She's the OW that thought the guy was going to leave for her, not the wife. She is conflating having consensual sex with him and believing his lies as rape, instead of what it really was: her stupidity for getting involved with a married man in the first place.

Incorrect. It is an acknowledgment of how men in a number of these DCUM cheating threads describe how dumb their APs are — people they have ongoing affairs with, not just hook ups — to believe that there’s something more. The men take advantage of that dumbness to get what they want and are laughing at and disparaging the OW behind her back and here on DCUM. That nuance of enjoying duping the AP certainly seems to be an additional reason for why men — at least on DCUM it seems — like to cheat.

I saw the emails my now exDH was sending to the AP. It was actually sad - he told her lies about my relationship with him (like that we weren’t sleeping together when we were multiple times a week, like I had trapped him into the relationship when it was he who proposed to me and we had explicitly discussed having each child). Those lies were designed to make her feel like it was OK he was cheating on me. He was also telling me lies - like that we were having monogamous sex. In both cases, the AP and I consented to sex on the basis of certain ideas he misrepresented. For me, that makes the sex non-consensual. Consent must be informed and freely given in order to be consent;otherwise, it’s nit consent it’s just successful manipulation.

We have to get away from this idea that it is OK for men to use any means to get sex - we have moved away from rape by stranger, date rape and marital rape, but as a culture we have not evolved away from rape by fraud. Many states have no laws against stealthing, which is a form of rape by fraud.

That's not a realistic definition of consent for sex. What if the wife had been secretly gambling away the life savings? You could say that a man wouldn't have wanted to have sex with the wife if he'd known because he would have gotten a divorce. Is that non-consensual sex? Of course not.

it's ok to be mad at the lies and manipulation, but calling it rape is nonsense.

The elements of informed and freely given aspects of consent have been embedded in the law for a long time. We just have chosen, as a culture, not to afford women the right to exercise that kind of consent when it comes to sex.

BTW, one can have an argument about what kinds of information are relevant to “informed” sexual consent. I feel like when a person explicitly bargains for monogamy prior to entering a sexual or marital relationship and then the partner deliberately ignores that element of the consent, well, to me, that’s pretty straight up fraud that is relevant to the consent given. It’s also distinguishable from your “if he had known” standard, because the woman has explicitly said prior to the transaction, “I’m not willing to have sex with you if you’re sleeping with others.”

There are many forms of rape. Some people choose to focus on “forcible” “stranger” rape as the only “legitimate” rape. But, there are other forms - date rape, marital rape, etc. Your pre-requisite for “realistic” definition of consent is the same argument that was applied to date and marital rape - is it “realistic” to believe that the husband would be able to hear “no” from his wife (or that she could say it), is it realistic to believe that a husband could restrain himself from having sex with his wife when she said “no”, is it realistic to think that a date or marriage wasn’t itself consent to sex?, etc. What once was unrealistic is now a realistic expectation.

Either women have a right to control their bodies and the terms on which they have sex, or they don’t. Monogamy is frequently one of those terms. It is a term that is absolutely under the exclusive control of the prospective partner. If the partner chooses to violate the terms of consent, whether or not the monogamy-requiring partner knows, then it becomes non-consensual sex, otherwise known as rape.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes it's an exit affair and he wants out of the marriage. Google it, it's a thing.

Not as typical for men, but very common for married women in affairs. 65% unhappily married women in affairs looking for it as an exit, compared to only 20% of men, and only 2% actually marry the AP.

+1.

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but seriously how is this even a question. Most men have a strong desire to have sex.

Sometimes they just want to be with variety of women.
Sometimes they want to be with a woman who is hotter/younger than their wife
Sometimes they want to feel wanted/desired
Sometimes they have a sex addiction
Sometimes they are looking for different/wilder/kinkier sex than they have at home
Sometimes they enjoy the thrill of getting one over their wife
Sometimes they are approached or see an opportunity and they think that they won't get caught so it will be OK

Most of the time, they are cheating to get it in because they can, not some grand scheme to eventually divorce and marry the AP.

You forgot: Sometimes they hate women and enjoy the thrill of duping a woman into thinking he cares so that she will relent and have sex with him with the belief they have a sincere relationship, aka rape by fraud.

First, this is not rape by fraud. Sheesh. Don't water down the trauma of rape.

Second, this is not at all a common reason for men to have affairs. Maybe this happened to you, but then I wonder why you married a sociopath.

She's the OW that thought the guy was going to leave for her, not the wife. She is conflating having consensual sex with him and believing his lies as rape, instead of what it really was: her stupidity for getting involved with a married man in the first place.

Incorrect. It is an acknowledgment of how men in a number of these DCUM cheating threads describe how dumb their APs are — people they have ongoing affairs with, not just hook ups — to believe that there’s something more. The men take advantage of that dumbness to get what they want and are laughing at and disparaging the OW behind her back and here on DCUM. That nuance of enjoying duping the AP certainly seems to be an additional reason for why men — at least on DCUM it seems — like to cheat.

I saw the emails my now exDH was sending to the AP. It was actually sad - he told her lies about my relationship with him (like that we weren’t sleeping together when we were multiple times a week, like I had trapped him into the relationship when it was he who proposed to me and we had explicitly discussed having each child). Those lies were designed to make her feel like it was OK he was cheating on me. He was also telling me lies - like that we were having monogamous sex. In both cases, the AP and I consented to sex on the basis of certain ideas he misrepresented. For me, that makes the sex non-consensual. Consent must be informed and freely given in order to be consent;otherwise, it’s nit consent it’s just successful manipulation.

We have to get away from this idea that it is OK for men to use any means to get sex - we have moved away from rape by stranger, date rape and marital rape, but as a culture we have not evolved away from rape by fraud. Many states have no laws against stealthing, which is a form of rape by fraud.

That's not a realistic definition of consent for sex. What if the wife had been secretly gambling away the life savings? You could say that a man wouldn't have wanted to have sex with the wife if he'd known because he would have gotten a divorce. Is that non-consensual sex? Of course not.

it's ok to be mad at the lies and manipulation, but calling it rape is nonsense.

The elements of informed and freely given aspects of consent have been embedded in the law for a long time. We just have chosen, as a culture, not to afford women the right to exercise that kind of consent when it comes to sex.

BTW, one can have an argument about what kinds of information are relevant to “informed” sexual consent. I feel like when a person explicitly bargains for monogamy prior to entering a sexual or marital relationship and then the partner deliberately ignores that element of the consent, well, to me, that’s pretty straight up fraud that is relevant to the consent given. It’s also distinguishable from your “if he had known” standard, because the woman has explicitly said prior to the transaction, “I’m not willing to have sex with you if you’re sleeping with others.”

There are many forms of rape. Some people choose to focus on “forcible” “stranger” rape as the only “legitimate” rape. But, there are other forms - date rape, marital rape, etc. Your pre-requisite for “realistic” definition of consent is the same argument that was applied to date and marital rape - is it “realistic” to believe that the husband would be able to hear “no” from his wife (or that she could say it), is it realistic to believe that a husband could restrain himself from having sex with his wife when she said “no”, is it realistic to think that a date or marriage wasn’t itself consent to sex?, etc. What once was unrealistic is now a realistic expectation.

Either women have a right to control their bodies and the terms on which they have sex, or they don’t. Monogamy is frequently one of those terms. It is a term that is absolutely under the exclusive control of the prospective partner. If the partner chooses to violate the terms of consent, whether or not the monogamy-requiring partner knows, then it becomes non-consensual sex, otherwise known as rape.

Yes. Betrayed partners can contract lethal infections without their knowledge and/or infections that are life-long. There are also STIs that are asymptomatic yet can cause infertility.

I really think its akin to criminal to not get consent before going outside of an agreed upon monogamous marriage, when you are still having sex with your spouse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes it's an exit affair and he wants out of the marriage. Google it, it's a thing.

Not as typical for men, but very common for married women in affairs. 65% unhappily married women in affairs looking for it as an exit, compared to only 20% of men, and only 2% actually marry the AP.

+1.

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but seriously how is this even a question. Most men have a strong desire to have sex.

Sometimes they just want to be with variety of women.
Sometimes they want to be with a woman who is hotter/younger than their wife
Sometimes they want to feel wanted/desired
Sometimes they have a sex addiction
Sometimes they are looking for different/wilder/kinkier sex than they have at home
Sometimes they enjoy the thrill of getting one over their wife
Sometimes they are approached or see an opportunity and they think that they won't get caught so it will be OK

Most of the time, they are cheating to get it in because they can, not some grand scheme to eventually divorce and marry the AP.

You forgot: Sometimes they hate women and enjoy the thrill of duping a woman into thinking he cares so that she will relent and have sex with him with the belief they have a sincere relationship, aka rape by fraud.

First, this is not rape by fraud. Sheesh. Don't water down the trauma of rape.

Second, this is not at all a common reason for men to have affairs. Maybe this happened to you, but then I wonder why you married a sociopath.

She's the OW that thought the guy was going to leave for her, not the wife. She is conflating having consensual sex with him and believing his lies as rape, instead of what it really was: her stupidity for getting involved with a married man in the first place.

Incorrect. It is an acknowledgment of how men in a number of these DCUM cheating threads describe how dumb their APs are — people they have ongoing affairs with, not just hook ups — to believe that there’s something more. The men take advantage of that dumbness to get what they want and are laughing at and disparaging the OW behind her back and here on DCUM. That nuance of enjoying duping the AP certainly seems to be an additional reason for why men — at least on DCUM it seems — like to cheat.

I saw the emails my now exDH was sending to the AP. It was actually sad - he told her lies about my relationship with him (like that we weren’t sleeping together when we were multiple times a week, like I had trapped him into the relationship when it was he who proposed to me and we had explicitly discussed having each child). Those lies were designed to make her feel like it was OK he was cheating on me. He was also telling me lies - like that we were having monogamous sex. In both cases, the AP and I consented to sex on the basis of certain ideas he misrepresented. For me, that makes the sex non-consensual. Consent must be informed and freely given in order to be consent;otherwise, it’s nit consent it’s just successful manipulation.

We have to get away from this idea that it is OK for men to use any means to get sex - we have moved away from rape by stranger, date rape and marital rape, but as a culture we have not evolved away from rape by fraud. Many states have no laws against stealthing, which is a form of rape by fraud.

That's not a realistic definition of consent for sex. What if the wife had been secretly gambling away the life savings? You could say that a man wouldn't have wanted to have sex with the wife if he'd known because he would have gotten a divorce. Is that non-consensual sex? Of course not.

it's ok to be mad at the lies and manipulation, but calling it rape is nonsense.

The elements of informed and freely given aspects of consent have been embedded in the law for a long time. We just have chosen, as a culture, not to afford women the right to exercise that kind of consent when it comes to sex.

BTW, one can have an argument about what kinds of information are relevant to “informed” sexual consent. I feel like when a person explicitly bargains for monogamy prior to entering a sexual or marital relationship and then the partner deliberately ignores that element of the consent, well, to me, that’s pretty straight up fraud that is relevant to the consent given. It’s also distinguishable from your “if he had known” standard, because the woman has explicitly said prior to the transaction, “I’m not willing to have sex with you if you’re sleeping with others.”

There are many forms of rape. Some people choose to focus on “forcible” “stranger” rape as the only “legitimate” rape. But, there are other forms - date rape, marital rape, etc. Your pre-requisite for “realistic” definition of consent is the same argument that was applied to date and marital rape - is it “realistic” to believe that the husband would be able to hear “no” from his wife (or that she could say it), is it realistic to believe that a husband could restrain himself from having sex with his wife when she said “no”, is it realistic to think that a date or marriage wasn’t itself consent to sex?, etc. What once was unrealistic is now a realistic expectation.

Either women have a right to control their bodies and the terms on which they have sex, or they don’t. Monogamy is frequently one of those terms. It is a term that is absolutely under the exclusive control of the prospective partner. If the partner chooses to violate the terms of consent, whether or not the monogamy-requiring partner knows, then it becomes non-consensual sex, otherwise known as rape.

Yes. Betrayed partners can contract lethal infections without their knowledge and/or infections that are life-long. There are also STIs that are asymptomatic yet can cause infertility.

I really think its akin to criminal to not get consent before going outside of an agreed upon monogamous marriage, when you are still having sex with your spouse.

Certain STIS can also cause harm to a fetus and/or newborn in a pregnant spouse that contracts one from a cheater. Mental retardation, blindness, deafness, learning and/or developmental issues, early birth, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes it's an exit affair and he wants out of the marriage. Google it, it's a thing.

Not as typical for men, but very common for married women in affairs. 65% unhappily married women in affairs looking for it as an exit, compared to only 20% of men, and only 2% actually marry the AP.

+1.

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but seriously how is this even a question. Most men have a strong desire to have sex.

Sometimes they just want to be with variety of women.
Sometimes they want to be with a woman who is hotter/younger than their wife
Sometimes they want to feel wanted/desired
Sometimes they have a sex addiction
Sometimes they are looking for different/wilder/kinkier sex than they have at home
Sometimes they enjoy the thrill of getting one over their wife
Sometimes they are approached or see an opportunity and they think that they won't get caught so it will be OK

Most of the time, they are cheating to get it in because they can, not some grand scheme to eventually divorce and marry the AP.

You forgot: Sometimes they hate women and enjoy the thrill of duping a woman into thinking he cares so that she will relent and have sex with him with the belief they have a sincere relationship, aka rape by fraud.

First, this is not rape by fraud. Sheesh. Don't water down the trauma of rape.

Second, this is not at all a common reason for men to have affairs. Maybe this happened to you, but then I wonder why you married a sociopath.

She's the OW that thought the guy was going to leave for her, not the wife. She is conflating having consensual sex with him and believing his lies as rape, instead of what it really was: her stupidity for getting involved with a married man in the first place.

Incorrect. It is an acknowledgment of how men in a number of these DCUM cheating threads describe how dumb their APs are — people they have ongoing affairs with, not just hook ups — to believe that there’s something more. The men take advantage of that dumbness to get what they want and are laughing at and disparaging the OW behind her back and here on DCUM. That nuance of enjoying duping the AP certainly seems to be an additional reason for why men — at least on DCUM it seems — like to cheat.

I saw the emails my now exDH was sending to the AP. It was actually sad - he told her lies about my relationship with him (like that we weren’t sleeping together when we were multiple times a week, like I had trapped him into the relationship when it was he who proposed to me and we had explicitly discussed having each child). Those lies were designed to make her feel like it was OK he was cheating on me. He was also telling me lies - like that we were having monogamous sex. In both cases, the AP and I consented to sex on the basis of certain ideas he misrepresented. For me, that makes the sex non-consensual. Consent must be informed and freely given in order to be consent;otherwise, it’s nit consent it’s just successful manipulation.

We have to get away from this idea that it is OK for men to use any means to get sex - we have moved away from rape by stranger, date rape and marital rape, but as a culture we have not evolved away from rape by fraud. Many states have no laws against stealthing, which is a form of rape by fraud.

That's not a realistic definition of consent for sex. What if the wife had been secretly gambling away the life savings? You could say that a man wouldn't have wanted to have sex with the wife if he'd known because he would have gotten a divorce. Is that non-consensual sex? Of course not.

it's ok to be mad at the lies and manipulation, but calling it rape is nonsense.

The elements of informed and freely given aspects of consent have been embedded in the law for a long time. We just have chosen, as a culture, not to afford women the right to exercise that kind of consent when it comes to sex.

BTW, one can have an argument about what kinds of information are relevant to “informed” sexual consent. I feel like when a person explicitly bargains for monogamy prior to entering a sexual or marital relationship and then the partner deliberately ignores that element of the consent, well, to me, that’s pretty straight up fraud that is relevant to the consent given. It’s also distinguishable from your “if he had known” standard, because the woman has explicitly said prior to the transaction, “I’m not willing to have sex with you if you’re sleeping with others.”

There are many forms of rape. Some people choose to focus on “forcible” “stranger” rape as the only “legitimate” rape. But, there are other forms - date rape, marital rape, etc. Your pre-requisite for “realistic” definition of consent is the same argument that was applied to date and marital rape - is it “realistic” to believe that the husband would be able to hear “no” from his wife (or that she could say it), is it realistic to believe that a husband could restrain himself from having sex with his wife when she said “no”, is it realistic to think that a date or marriage wasn’t itself consent to sex?, etc. What once was unrealistic is now a realistic expectation.

Either women have a right to control their bodies and the terms on which they have sex, or they don’t. Monogamy is frequently one of those terms. It is a term that is absolutely under the exclusive control of the prospective partner. If the partner chooses to violate the terms of consent, whether or not the monogamy-requiring partner knows, then it becomes non-consensual sex, otherwise known as rape.

Yes. Betrayed partners can contract lethal infections without their knowledge and/or infections that are life-long. There are also STIs that are asymptomatic yet can cause infertility.

I really think its akin to criminal to not get consent before going outside of an agreed upon monogamous marriage, when you are still having sex with your spouse.

Certain STIS can also cause harm to a fetus and/or newborn in a pregnant spouse that contracts one from a cheater. Mental retardation, blindness, deafness, learning and/or developmental issues, early birth, etc.

All true, and not likely the cheater cares or thinks about this at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes it's an exit affair and he wants out of the marriage. Google it, it's a thing.

Not as typical for men, but very common for married women in affairs. 65% unhappily married women in affairs looking for it as an exit, compared to only 20% of men, and only 2% actually marry the AP.

+1.

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but seriously how is this even a question. Most men have a strong desire to have sex.

Sometimes they just want to be with variety of women.
Sometimes they want to be with a woman who is hotter/younger than their wife
Sometimes they want to feel wanted/desired
Sometimes they have a sex addiction
Sometimes they are looking for different/wilder/kinkier sex than they have at home
Sometimes they enjoy the thrill of getting one over their wife
Sometimes they are approached or see an opportunity and they think that they won't get caught so it will be OK

Most of the time, they are cheating to get it in because they can, not some grand scheme to eventually divorce and marry the AP.

You forgot: Sometimes they hate women and enjoy the thrill of duping a woman into thinking he cares so that she will relent and have sex with him with the belief they have a sincere relationship, aka rape by fraud.

First, this is not rape by fraud. Sheesh. Don't water down the trauma of rape.

Second, this is not at all a common reason for men to have affairs. Maybe this happened to you, but then I wonder why you married a sociopath.

She's the OW that thought the guy was going to leave for her, not the wife. She is conflating having consensual sex with him and believing his lies as rape, instead of what it really was: her stupidity for getting involved with a married man in the first place.

Incorrect. It is an acknowledgment of how men in a number of these DCUM cheating threads describe how dumb their APs are — people they have ongoing affairs with, not just hook ups — to believe that there’s something more. The men take advantage of that dumbness to get what they want and are laughing at and disparaging the OW behind her back and here on DCUM. That nuance of enjoying duping the AP certainly seems to be an additional reason for why men — at least on DCUM it seems — like to cheat.

I saw the emails my now exDH was sending to the AP. It was actually sad - he told her lies about my relationship with him (like that we weren’t sleeping together when we were multiple times a week, like I had trapped him into the relationship when it was he who proposed to me and we had explicitly discussed having each child). Those lies were designed to make her feel like it was OK he was cheating on me. He was also telling me lies - like that we were having monogamous sex. In both cases, the AP and I consented to sex on the basis of certain ideas he misrepresented. For me, that makes the sex non-consensual. Consent must be informed and freely given in order to be consent;otherwise, it’s nit consent it’s just successful manipulation.

We have to get away from this idea that it is OK for men to use any means to get sex - we have moved away from rape by stranger, date rape and marital rape, but as a culture we have not evolved away from rape by fraud. Many states have no laws against stealthing, which is a form of rape by fraud.

That's not a realistic definition of consent for sex. What if the wife had been secretly gambling away the life savings? You could say that a man wouldn't have wanted to have sex with the wife if he'd known because he would have gotten a divorce. Is that non-consensual sex? Of course not.

it's ok to be mad at the lies and manipulation, but calling it rape is nonsense.

The elements of informed and freely given aspects of consent have been embedded in the law for a long time. We just have chosen, as a culture, not to afford women the right to exercise that kind of consent when it comes to sex.

BTW, one can have an argument about what kinds of information are relevant to “informed” sexual consent. I feel like when a person explicitly bargains for monogamy prior to entering a sexual or marital relationship and then the partner deliberately ignores that element of the consent, well, to me, that’s pretty straight up fraud that is relevant to the consent given. It’s also distinguishable from your “if he had known” standard, because the woman has explicitly said prior to the transaction, “I’m not willing to have sex with you if you’re sleeping with others.”

There are many forms of rape. Some people choose to focus on “forcible” “stranger” rape as the only “legitimate” rape. But, there are other forms - date rape, marital rape, etc. Your pre-requisite for “realistic” definition of consent is the same argument that was applied to date and marital rape - is it “realistic” to believe that the husband would be able to hear “no” from his wife (or that she could say it), is it realistic to believe that a husband could restrain himself from having sex with his wife when she said “no”, is it realistic to think that a date or marriage wasn’t itself consent to sex?, etc. What once was unrealistic is now a realistic expectation.

Either women have a right to control their bodies and the terms on which they have sex, or they don’t. Monogamy is frequently one of those terms. It is a term that is absolutely under the exclusive control of the prospective partner. If the partner chooses to violate the terms of consent, whether or not the monogamy-requiring partner knows, then it becomes non-consensual sex, otherwise known as rape.

I think you pretty much agreed that your definition of "consent" is not one used in the law, which defines what "rape" is, and it is self-evident why that is not the definition used in the law. I guess you are tying yourself in knots with this because you want to condemn cheating as something more than a broken promise, but what you are doing is equating rape to a broken promise. This just seems like some silly academic women's studies course nonsense that has zero applicability to the real world, and is frankly insulting to those who have been assaulted.

[Anonymous]

Sex and sex and sex

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes it's an exit affair and he wants out of the marriage. Google it, it's a thing.

Not as typical for men, but very common for married women in affairs. 65% unhappily married women in affairs looking for it as an exit, compared to only 20% of men, and only 2% actually marry the AP.

+1.

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but seriously how is this even a question. Most men have a strong desire to have sex.

Sometimes they just want to be with variety of women.
Sometimes they want to be with a woman who is hotter/younger than their wife
Sometimes they want to feel wanted/desired
Sometimes they have a sex addiction
Sometimes they are looking for different/wilder/kinkier sex than they have at home
Sometimes they enjoy the thrill of getting one over their wife
Sometimes they are approached or see an opportunity and they think that they won't get caught so it will be OK

Most of the time, they are cheating to get it in because they can, not some grand scheme to eventually divorce and marry the AP.

You forgot: Sometimes they hate women and enjoy the thrill of duping a woman into thinking he cares so that she will relent and have sex with him with the belief they have a sincere relationship, aka rape by fraud.

First, this is not rape by fraud. Sheesh. Don't water down the trauma of rape.

Second, this is not at all a common reason for men to have affairs. Maybe this happened to you, but then I wonder why you married a sociopath.

She's the OW that thought the guy was going to leave for her, not the wife. She is conflating having consensual sex with him and believing his lies as rape, instead of what it really was: her stupidity for getting involved with a married man in the first place.

Incorrect. It is an acknowledgment of how men in a number of these DCUM cheating threads describe how dumb their APs are — people they have ongoing affairs with, not just hook ups — to believe that there’s something more. The men take advantage of that dumbness to get what they want and are laughing at and disparaging the OW behind her back and here on DCUM. That nuance of enjoying duping the AP certainly seems to be an additional reason for why men — at least on DCUM it seems — like to cheat.

I saw the emails my now exDH was sending to the AP. It was actually sad - he told her lies about my relationship with him (like that we weren’t sleeping together when we were multiple times a week, like I had trapped him into the relationship when it was he who proposed to me and we had explicitly discussed having each child). Those lies were designed to make her feel like it was OK he was cheating on me. He was also telling me lies - like that we were having monogamous sex. In both cases, the AP and I consented to sex on the basis of certain ideas he misrepresented. For me, that makes the sex non-consensual. Consent must be informed and freely given in order to be consent;otherwise, it’s nit consent it’s just successful manipulation.

We have to get away from this idea that it is OK for men to use any means to get sex - we have moved away from rape by stranger, date rape and marital rape, but as a culture we have not evolved away from rape by fraud. Many states have no laws against stealthing, which is a form of rape by fraud.

That's not a realistic definition of consent for sex. What if the wife had been secretly gambling away the life savings? You could say that a man wouldn't have wanted to have sex with the wife if he'd known because he would have gotten a divorce. Is that non-consensual sex? Of course not.

it's ok to be mad at the lies and manipulation, but calling it rape is nonsense.

The elements of informed and freely given aspects of consent have been embedded in the law for a long time. We just have chosen, as a culture, not to afford women the right to exercise that kind of consent when it comes to sex.

BTW, one can have an argument about what kinds of information are relevant to “informed” sexual consent. I feel like when a person explicitly bargains for monogamy prior to entering a sexual or marital relationship and then the partner deliberately ignores that element of the consent, well, to me, that’s pretty straight up fraud that is relevant to the consent given. It’s also distinguishable from your “if he had known” standard, because the woman has explicitly said prior to the transaction, “I’m not willing to have sex with you if you’re sleeping with others.”

There are many forms of rape. Some people choose to focus on “forcible” “stranger” rape as the only “legitimate” rape. But, there are other forms - date rape, marital rape, etc. Your pre-requisite for “realistic” definition of consent is the same argument that was applied to date and marital rape - is it “realistic” to believe that the husband would be able to hear “no” from his wife (or that she could say it), is it realistic to believe that a husband could restrain himself from having sex with his wife when she said “no”, is it realistic to think that a date or marriage wasn’t itself consent to sex?, etc. What once was unrealistic is now a realistic expectation.

Either women have a right to control their bodies and the terms on which they have sex, or they don’t. Monogamy is frequently one of those terms. It is a term that is absolutely under the exclusive control of the prospective partner. If the partner chooses to violate the terms of consent, whether or not the monogamy-requiring partner knows, then it becomes non-consensual sex, otherwise known as rape.

I think you pretty much agreed that your definition of "consent" is not one used in the law, which defines what "rape" is, and it is self-evident why that is not the definition used in the law. I guess you are tying yourself in knots with this because you want to condemn cheating as something more than a broken promise, but what you are doing is equating rape to a broken promise. This just seems like some silly academic women's studies course nonsense that has zero applicability to the real world, and is frankly insulting to those who have been assaulted.

NP. I’m pretty sure that was PP’s point that, although this type of situation isn’t expressly addressed in the law, it involves lack of consent (due to being defrauded) and therefore arguably should be considered rape, or sexual assault, or whatever term is used to describe non consensual sexual activity.

Consider for example if a man were dating a woman but had no idea she was trans. The woman did not disclose, because she wanted sex and knew he would not consent if he knew she originally had been a man. In fact, he has strong religious beliefs and, when he finds out he’s had sex with a person who originally was a man, he feels violated and devastated. Mind you, I think this scenario is much far less likely to happen than the scenario of a man duping a woman into having sex with him by withholding the fact that he’s married, or that he actually thinks she’s trash and is just using her, etc. But it all gets to the same place that the perpetrator is enacting a fraud to obtain sex. Not unlike fraudsters perpetrate a scheme to defraud you of money. PP’s point is this should be actionable under the law, because it involves the same elements of lack of informed consent and intent to defraud that apply in crimes that are recognized under the law.

[Anonymous]

Wow, someone that put my health at great risk I wouldn't care what happens to. Cancer, or run over by a car...wouldn't care OP. Hopefully that's a cheaters end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes it's an exit affair and he wants out of the marriage. Google it, it's a thing.

Not as typical for men, but very common for married women in affairs. 65% unhappily married women in affairs looking for it as an exit, compared to only 20% of men, and only 2% actually marry the AP.

+1.

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but seriously how is this even a question. Most men have a strong desire to have sex.

Sometimes they just want to be with variety of women.
Sometimes they want to be with a woman who is hotter/younger than their wife
Sometimes they want to feel wanted/desired
Sometimes they have a sex addiction
Sometimes they are looking for different/wilder/kinkier sex than they have at home
Sometimes they enjoy the thrill of getting one over their wife
Sometimes they are approached or see an opportunity and they think that they won't get caught so it will be OK

Most of the time, they are cheating to get it in because they can, not some grand scheme to eventually divorce and marry the AP.

You forgot: Sometimes they hate women and enjoy the thrill of duping a woman into thinking he cares so that she will relent and have sex with him with the belief they have a sincere relationship, aka rape by fraud.

First, this is not rape by fraud. Sheesh. Don't water down the trauma of rape.

Second, this is not at all a common reason for men to have affairs. Maybe this happened to you, but then I wonder why you married a sociopath.

She's the OW that thought the guy was going to leave for her, not the wife. She is conflating having consensual sex with him and believing his lies as rape, instead of what it really was: her stupidity for getting involved with a married man in the first place.

Incorrect. It is an acknowledgment of how men in a number of these DCUM cheating threads describe how dumb their APs are — people they have ongoing affairs with, not just hook ups — to believe that there’s something more. The men take advantage of that dumbness to get what they want and are laughing at and disparaging the OW behind her back and here on DCUM. That nuance of enjoying duping the AP certainly seems to be an additional reason for why men — at least on DCUM it seems — like to cheat.

I saw the emails my now exDH was sending to the AP. It was actually sad - he told her lies about my relationship with him (like that we weren’t sleeping together when we were multiple times a week, like I had trapped him into the relationship when it was he who proposed to me and we had explicitly discussed having each child). Those lies were designed to make her feel like it was OK he was cheating on me. He was also telling me lies - like that we were having monogamous sex. In both cases, the AP and I consented to sex on the basis of certain ideas he misrepresented. For me, that makes the sex non-consensual. Consent must be informed and freely given in order to be consent;otherwise, it’s nit consent it’s just successful manipulation.

We have to get away from this idea that it is OK for men to use any means to get sex - we have moved away from rape by stranger, date rape and marital rape, but as a culture we have not evolved away from rape by fraud. Many states have no laws against stealthing, which is a form of rape by fraud.

That's not a realistic definition of consent for sex. What if the wife had been secretly gambling away the life savings? You could say that a man wouldn't have wanted to have sex with the wife if he'd known because he would have gotten a divorce. Is that non-consensual sex? Of course not.

it's ok to be mad at the lies and manipulation, but calling it rape is nonsense.

PP was correct. It was rape by fraud. Not to mention the life long diseases or worse she could have gotten should be criminal.

[Anonymous]

Chris Rock said it best years ago - the only thing better than p*ssy is new p*ssy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes it's an exit affair and he wants out of the marriage. Google it, it's a thing.

Not as typical for men, but very common for married women in affairs. 65% unhappily married women in affairs looking for it as an exit, compared to only 20% of men, and only 2% actually marry the AP.

+1.

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but seriously how is this even a question. Most men have a strong desire to have sex.

Sometimes they just want to be with variety of women.
Sometimes they want to be with a woman who is hotter/younger than their wife
Sometimes they want to feel wanted/desired
Sometimes they have a sex addiction
Sometimes they are looking for different/wilder/kinkier sex than they have at home
Sometimes they enjoy the thrill of getting one over their wife
Sometimes they are approached or see an opportunity and they think that they won't get caught so it will be OK

Most of the time, they are cheating to get it in because they can, not some grand scheme to eventually divorce and marry the AP.

You forgot: Sometimes they hate women and enjoy the thrill of duping a woman into thinking he cares so that she will relent and have sex with him with the belief they have a sincere relationship, aka rape by fraud.

First, this is not rape by fraud. Sheesh. Don't water down the trauma of rape.

Second, this is not at all a common reason for men to have affairs. Maybe this happened to you, but then I wonder why you married a sociopath.

She's the OW that thought the guy was going to leave for her, not the wife. She is conflating having consensual sex with him and believing his lies as rape, instead of what it really was: her stupidity for getting involved with a married man in the first place.

Incorrect. It is an acknowledgment of how men in a number of these DCUM cheating threads describe how dumb their APs are — people they have ongoing affairs with, not just hook ups — to believe that there’s something more. The men take advantage of that dumbness to get what they want and are laughing at and disparaging the OW behind her back and here on DCUM. That nuance of enjoying duping the AP certainly seems to be an additional reason for why men — at least on DCUM it seems — like to cheat.

I saw the emails my now exDH was sending to the AP. It was actually sad - he told her lies about my relationship with him (like that we weren’t sleeping together when we were multiple times a week, like I had trapped him into the relationship when it was he who proposed to me and we had explicitly discussed having each child). Those lies were designed to make her feel like it was OK he was cheating on me. He was also telling me lies - like that we were having monogamous sex. In both cases, the AP and I consented to sex on the basis of certain ideas he misrepresented. For me, that makes the sex non-consensual. Consent must be informed and freely given in order to be consent;otherwise, it’s nit consent it’s just successful manipulation.

We have to get away from this idea that it is OK for men to use any means to get sex - we have moved away from rape by stranger, date rape and marital rape, but as a culture we have not evolved away from rape by fraud. Many states have no laws against stealthing, which is a form of rape by fraud.

That's not a realistic definition of consent for sex. What if the wife had been secretly gambling away the life savings? You could say that a man wouldn't have wanted to have sex with the wife if he'd known because he would have gotten a divorce. Is that non-consensual sex? Of course not.

it's ok to be mad at the lies and manipulation, but calling it rape is nonsense.

The elements of informed and freely given aspects of consent have been embedded in the law for a long time. We just have chosen, as a culture, not to afford women the right to exercise that kind of consent when it comes to sex.

BTW, one can have an argument about what kinds of information are relevant to “informed” sexual consent. I feel like when a person explicitly bargains for monogamy prior to entering a sexual or marital relationship and then the partner deliberately ignores that element of the consent, well, to me, that’s pretty straight up fraud that is relevant to the consent given. It’s also distinguishable from your “if he had known” standard, because the woman has explicitly said prior to the transaction, “I’m not willing to have sex with you if you’re sleeping with others.”

There are many forms of rape. Some people choose to focus on “forcible” “stranger” rape as the only “legitimate” rape. But, there are other forms - date rape, marital rape, etc. Your pre-requisite for “realistic” definition of consent is the same argument that was applied to date and marital rape - is it “realistic” to believe that the husband would be able to hear “no” from his wife (or that she could say it), is it realistic to believe that a husband could restrain himself from having sex with his wife when she said “no”, is it realistic to think that a date or marriage wasn’t itself consent to sex?, etc. What once was unrealistic is now a realistic expectation.

Either women have a right to control their bodies and the terms on which they have sex, or they don’t. Monogamy is frequently one of those terms. It is a term that is absolutely under the exclusive control of the prospective partner. If the partner chooses to violate the terms of consent, whether or not the monogamy-requiring partner knows, then it becomes non-consensual sex, otherwise known as rape.

I think you pretty much agreed that your definition of "consent" is not one used in the law, which defines what "rape" is, and it is self-evident why that is not the definition used in the law. I guess you are tying yourself in knots with this because you want to condemn cheating as something more than a broken promise, but what you are doing is equating rape to a broken promise. This just seems like some silly academic women's studies course nonsense that has zero applicability to the real world, and is frankly insulting to those who have been assaulted.

The law does change. For example, for a long time any sexual contact between a husband and wife was not considered rape. It is only relatively recently that laws were passed against marital rape. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it isn’t as bad as something illegal.

Also there are “rape by deception” statutes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes it's an exit affair and he wants out of the marriage. Google it, it's a thing.

Not as typical for men, but very common for married women in affairs. 65% unhappily married women in affairs looking for it as an exit, compared to only 20% of men, and only 2% actually marry the AP.

+1.

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but seriously how is this even a question. Most men have a strong desire to have sex.

Sometimes they just want to be with variety of women.
Sometimes they want to be with a woman who is hotter/younger than their wife
Sometimes they want to feel wanted/desired
Sometimes they have a sex addiction
Sometimes they are looking for different/wilder/kinkier sex than they have at home
Sometimes they enjoy the thrill of getting one over their wife
Sometimes they are approached or see an opportunity and they think that they won't get caught so it will be OK

Most of the time, they are cheating to get it in because they can, not some grand scheme to eventually divorce and marry the AP.

You forgot: Sometimes they hate women and enjoy the thrill of duping a woman into thinking he cares so that she will relent and have sex with him with the belief they have a sincere relationship, aka rape by fraud.

First, this is not rape by fraud. Sheesh. Don't water down the trauma of rape.

Second, this is not at all a common reason for men to have affairs. Maybe this happened to you, but then I wonder why you married a sociopath.

She's the OW that thought the guy was going to leave for her, not the wife. She is conflating having consensual sex with him and believing his lies as rape, instead of what it really was: her stupidity for getting involved with a married man in the first place.

Incorrect. It is an acknowledgment of how men in a number of these DCUM cheating threads describe how dumb their APs are — people they have ongoing affairs with, not just hook ups — to believe that there’s something more. The men take advantage of that dumbness to get what they want and are laughing at and disparaging the OW behind her back and here on DCUM. That nuance of enjoying duping the AP certainly seems to be an additional reason for why men — at least on DCUM it seems — like to cheat.

I saw the emails my now exDH was sending to the AP. It was actually sad - he told her lies about my relationship with him (like that we weren’t sleeping together when we were multiple times a week, like I had trapped him into the relationship when it was he who proposed to me and we had explicitly discussed having each child). Those lies were designed to make her feel like it was OK he was cheating on me. He was also telling me lies - like that we were having monogamous sex. In both cases, the AP and I consented to sex on the basis of certain ideas he misrepresented. For me, that makes the sex non-consensual. Consent must be informed and freely given in order to be consent;otherwise, it’s nit consent it’s just successful manipulation.

We have to get away from this idea that it is OK for men to use any means to get sex - we have moved away from rape by stranger, date rape and marital rape, but as a culture we have not evolved away from rape by fraud. Many states have no laws against stealthing, which is a form of rape by fraud.

That's not a realistic definition of consent for sex. What if the wife had been secretly gambling away the life savings? You could say that a man wouldn't have wanted to have sex with the wife if he'd known because he would have gotten a divorce. Is that non-consensual sex? Of course not.

it's ok to be mad at the lies and manipulation, but calling it rape is nonsense.

The elements of informed and freely given aspects of consent have been embedded in the law for a long time. We just have chosen, as a culture, not to afford women the right to exercise that kind of consent when it comes to sex.

BTW, one can have an argument about what kinds of information are relevant to “informed” sexual consent. I feel like when a person explicitly bargains for monogamy prior to entering a sexual or marital relationship and then the partner deliberately ignores that element of the consent, well, to me, that’s pretty straight up fraud that is relevant to the consent given. It’s also distinguishable from your “if he had known” standard, because the woman has explicitly said prior to the transaction, “I’m not willing to have sex with you if you’re sleeping with others.”

There are many forms of rape. Some people choose to focus on “forcible” “stranger” rape as the only “legitimate” rape. But, there are other forms - date rape, marital rape, etc. Your pre-requisite for “realistic” definition of consent is the same argument that was applied to date and marital rape - is it “realistic” to believe that the husband would be able to hear “no” from his wife (or that she could say it), is it realistic to believe that a husband could restrain himself from having sex with his wife when she said “no”, is it realistic to think that a date or marriage wasn’t itself consent to sex?, etc. What once was unrealistic is now a realistic expectation.

Either women have a right to control their bodies and the terms on which they have sex, or they don’t. Monogamy is frequently one of those terms. It is a term that is absolutely under the exclusive control of the prospective partner. If the partner chooses to violate the terms of consent, whether or not the monogamy-requiring partner knows, then it becomes non-consensual sex, otherwise known as rape.

I think you pretty much agreed that your definition of "consent" is not one used in the law, which defines what "rape" is, and it is self-evident why that is not the definition used in the law. I guess you are tying yourself in knots with this because you want to condemn cheating as something more than a broken promise, but what you are doing is equating rape to a broken promise. This just seems like some silly academic women's studies course nonsense that has zero applicability to the real world, and is frankly insulting to those who have been assaulted.

NP. I’m pretty sure that was PP’s point that, although this type of situation isn’t expressly addressed in the law, it involves lack of consent (due to being defrauded) and therefore arguably should be considered rape, or sexual assault, or whatever term is used to describe non consensual sexual activity.

Consider for example if a man were dating a woman but had no idea she was trans. The woman did not disclose, because she wanted sex and knew he would not consent if he knew she originally had been a man. In fact, he has strong religious beliefs and, when he finds out he’s had sex with a person who originally was a man, he feels violated and devastated. Mind you, I think this scenario is much far less likely to happen than the scenario of a man duping a woman into having sex with him by withholding the fact that he’s married, or that he actually thinks she’s trash and is just using her, etc. But it all gets to the same place that the perpetrator is enacting a fraud to obtain sex. Not unlike fraudsters perpetrate a scheme to defraud you of money. PP’s point is this should be actionable under the law, because it involves the same elements of lack of informed consent and intent to defraud that apply in crimes that are recognized under the law.

FYI somebody did actually go to prison for pretending to be a different gender to induce somebody to have sex with them. (Not the same thing as being trans of course)

[Anonymous]

"Rape by deception" refers to thinking you are sleeping with one person when it is not that person -- like it is really dark, you are drunk, and they are in costume or whatever. It does not refer to someone breaking a marriage vow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Rape by deception" refers to thinking you are sleeping with one person when it is not that person -- like it is really dark, you are drunk, and they are in costume or whatever. It does not refer to someone breaking a marriage vow.

Again, the PP (or multiple PPs) are saying that the cheater lying and leading his wife to think he’s being faithful, or lying to the OW that’s he’s single, or similar such lies are of the same ilk and SHOULD be considered rape by deception.

[Anonymous]

For me, it's really about being able to experience the joy of sex again. Not just the orgasms but the connection, the erotic dance, the seduction, all of it.

My wife has zero - zilch, nada - interest in sex. I have talked about it, tried suggestions, even tried abstinence, but at some point, I am not going the rest of my life without it.

And why should I have to give up my home and kids? I have kept my end of the bargain, I am in good shape, I am successful, I dress well, I take my wife on dates, plan vacations, all of it.

I did not choose this, I would much rather have sex with my wife, but I am not choosing celibacy or losing my kids as an option. And neither would the people who would judge me if they were in my shoes.