What is a Tiger Mom? If you are one how are you different from everyone else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You make it sound so gentle. Maybe sometimes it is. Maybe this is how parents perceive it. I can think of one girl who told my daughter that her mother has already told her (in high school) where she must go to college and what she must major in. Her mother has chosen her profession. She has no interest in any of this but has been raised to just go along, and so she will. She is incapable of making any big decisions on her own. Perhaps she does have some aptitude for that particular area but she has been tutored in it since she was young so its hard to know. I know another man who hasn't spoken with his parents in 20 years because he had to break away from it. They have never met their grandchildren.

This does not strike me as benign.

I suspect that the PP says "Asian parents" and "tiger parents" when what the PP really means is, "This is what I believe I'm doing, and my friends and family too."

And, as a patient, I hope I don't see any doctors who went into medicine because their parents started barely perceptively channeling them into medicine at a very young age because medicine is a lucrative and high-prestige profession.

[Anonymous]

OP again-

Let me try to explain it as an "outsider" looking in. I've never heard a single Asian mom tell me that their son or daughter must become X even among our most high achieving friends.

However, I find there is so much "positive peer pressure" through the socialization activities that my kids have been involved in. These kids want to do well not only because their parents expect it but because their friends are also excelling and they want to have the same opportunities.

I don't see as being very different from parents who want their kids to be great athletes. These parents choose specific activities that will help their kids excel.

People don't say very often that parents who push their kids athletically are raising unhappy people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again-

Let me try to explain it as an "outsider" looking in. I've never heard a single Asian mom tell me that their son or daughter must become X even among our most high achieving friends.

However, I find there is so much "positive peer pressure" through the socialization activities that my kids have been involved in. These kids want to do well not only because their parents expect it but because their friends are also excelling and they want to have the same opportunities.

I don't see as being very different from parents who want their kids to be great athletes. These parents choose specific activities that will help their kids excel.

People don't say very often that parents who push their kids athletically are raising unhappy people.

People actually do say that very often, in my experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Passion at the age of 18 or 19 is not a basis for a career decision.

The greatest disservice a parent can do is to encourage a child to pursue a course of study where the prospects for employment especially in today's competitive market, are dismal. It is the reason why adult children end up living with their parents in many cases.

My Asian friend's daughter was offered admission at Julliard and at MIT; she was a brilliant young lady who was also a very talented violinist. She wanted to go to Julliard but her parents would not hear of it. She was seventeen years old.

She is now 26 years old, graduated from MIT and completed a Masters from Harvard. She is well employed. She is grateful to her parents today that they did the right thing not allowing her to go to Julliard although at the time it caused a lot of friction.

At a time when college costs $100K to $200K just to get an undergraduate degree, a passion has to be viewed as something to be pursued as a hobby unless the chances of employment are good. As the Russian panda mom said, there is nothing to prevent a student from pursuing his/her passion as a minor if it does not offer the prospects for employment.

That is sad. She could probably be enjoying herself more playing the violin instead of slaving away at a lawfirm or consulting job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Coming from a family of mathematicians most of whom also play a musical instrument as a hobby, I agree with you about related genes. But to be an accomplished violinist at 18 requires hours of hard work every day from the time you are 5. Add to that all the advanced math coursework, participation in math and science olympiads, and so on, to impress MIT. I can't imagine many non-tiger-parents working their kid that hard, or very many kids choosing to work that hard on their own.
.

This is not entirely true. Not all accomplished classical musicians were tiger parented. My sister and I were not tiger parented and she is an employed and very accomplished classical musician. Anyway, from the moment her fingers first touched the piano keys at around age 6-7 she was in LOVE. Every day after school she'd head straight to the piano and "practice" (or just have fun inventing music) for hours and hours at a time. I remember once when she was about 12 she discovered my dad's video cassettes of Wagner's Ring Cycle and she spent the entire weekend watching it entranced. I don't think our parents, even once, reminded her to go and practice piano or the other instrument which she now plays professionally. She just loved it from the beginning and spend literally all her free time doing it as it was such a joy to her. I, on the other hand, never practiced the piano and my parents had to force me to play. Music is not my passion.

Now, as an adult, I'm actually jealous of my sister as she is the one person I know who truly loves every second of her job. It's her passion and it's what she was born to do. Not many people can say that. She doesn't make a lot of money but she's able to survive.

What an awesome story. However, people like your sister are very rare. People who have that much passion for music and are still good enough at math and science to be accepted to MIT are rarer still.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again-

Let me try to explain it as an "outsider" looking in. I've never heard a single Asian mom tell me that their son or daughter must become X even among our most high achieving friends.

However, I find there is so much "positive peer pressure" through the socialization activities that my kids have been involved in. These kids want to do well not only because their parents expect it but because their friends are also excelling and they want to have the same opportunities.

I don't see as being very different from parents who want their kids to be great athletes. These parents choose specific activities that will help their kids excel.

People don't say very often that parents who push their kids athletically are raising unhappy people.

That's because in the Asian community it is simply implied that you will become either: doctor, lawyer, engineer (computer or other)... second choice: finance or consulting. Maybe the younger parents are changing somewhat. Maybe they feel that there are good job prospects in these professions, but this is the general attitude of most Asian parents.

Yes, I know, this is not true IRL. But this is what Asian parents have traditionally believed in. Like I said, maybe it is changing, but I'm pretty sure most Asian tiger parents won't want their kid being a K teacher, Professor in college - ok, but not a K teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again-

Let me try to explain it as an "outsider" looking in. I've never heard a single Asian mom tell me that their son or daughter must become X even among our most high achieving friends.

However, I find there is so much "positive peer pressure" through the socialization activities that my kids have been involved in. These kids want to do well not only because their parents expect it but because their friends are also excelling and they want to have the same opportunities.

I don't see as being very different from parents who want their kids to be great athletes. These parents choose specific activities that will help their kids excel.

People don't say very often that parents who push their kids athletically are raising unhappy people.

That's because in the Asian community it is simply implied that you will become either: doctor, lawyer, engineer (computer or other)... second choice: finance or consulting. Maybe the younger parents are changing somewhat. Maybe they feel that there are good job prospects in these professions, but this is the general attitude of most Asian parents.

Yes, I know, this is not true IRL. But this is what Asian parents have traditionally believed in. Like I said, maybe it is changing, but I'm pretty sure most Asian tiger parents won't want their kid being a K teacher, Professor in college - ok, but not a K teacher.

This may come as a surprise to you but the majority of Asians - even those born and educated in the US - are not doctors, lawyers, engineers or even in finance or consulting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again-

Let me try to explain it as an "outsider" looking in. I've never heard a single Asian mom tell me that their son or daughter must become X even among our most high achieving friends.

However, I find there is so much "positive peer pressure" through the socialization activities that my kids have been involved in. These kids want to do well not only because their parents expect it but because their friends are also excelling and they want to have the same opportunities.

I don't see as being very different from parents who want their kids to be great athletes. These parents choose specific activities that will help their kids excel.

People don't say very often that parents who push their kids athletically are raising unhappy people.

That's because in the Asian community it is simply implied that you will become either: doctor, lawyer, engineer (computer or other)... second choice: finance or consulting. Maybe the younger parents are changing somewhat. Maybe they feel that there are good job prospects in these professions, but this is the general attitude of most Asian parents.

Yes, I know, this is not true IRL. But this is what Asian parents have traditionally believed in. Like I said, maybe it is changing, but I'm pretty sure most Asian tiger parents won't want their kid being a K teacher, Professor in college - ok, but not a K teacher.

teacher as a profession holds a very high status in Asian culture, so while i agree it's not a top choice but i don't think it's on the black list either. a teacher is definitely more "acceptable" than an athlete, or a writer, for instance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is rare with tiger parenting for children to be forced to pursue a major that they have no interest in.

If you really want to know how it works, it is a gradual process of directing them into certain fields from a very young age where there are good employment prospects. It is a barely perceptible process and they are channeled into areas of interest that they show some aptitude. The kids also socialize with a peer group that has similar motivations and a wish to succeed.

Have you ever noticed the number of Asians - including South Asians - who end up in the medical profession? Why do you think this happens? It is not some innate talent that they have. It is the result of this channeling that occurs from a very young age. Those who don't have the academic talent or proficiency to pursue medicine end up majoring in some other field that offers good employment prospects.

You will rarely hear an Asian parent tell their child to pursue his/her passion unless it is one that offers employment prospects down the line. From the standpoint of an Asian parent, the primary purpose in going into college is to attain the education to be well employed. I have seen discussions on DCUM where posters have argued for education for the sake of education where employment prospects are of secondary importance. This is a concept that would be almost alien to most tiger parents.

You make it sound so gentle. Maybe sometimes it is. Maybe this is how parents perceive it. I can think of one girl who told my daughter that her mother has already told her (in high school) where she must go to college and what she must major in. Her mother has chosen her profession. She has no interest in any of this but has been raised to just go along, and so she will. She is incapable of making any big decisions on her own. Perhaps she does have some aptitude for that particular area but she has been tutored in it since she was young so its hard to know. I know another man who hasn't spoken with his parents in 20 years because he had to break away from it. They have never met their grandchildren.

This does not strike me as benign.

Locking down a child into a career path is one aspect of tiger parenting. The other is the implied consequences of any setbacks the child may experience along the way. Tiger parents send the message that they will be disappointed and ashamed if the child does not meet their expectations and/or performs below the stellar peer group hand-selected by them. As a result, the kid has acute fear of failure because failure will cost them their parents' affection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again-

Let me try to explain it as an "outsider" looking in. I've never heard a single Asian mom tell me that their son or daughter must become X even among our most high achieving friends.

However, I find there is so much "positive peer pressure" through the socialization activities that my kids have been involved in. These kids want to do well not only because their parents expect it but because their friends are also excelling and they want to have the same opportunities.

I don't see as being very different from parents who want their kids to be great athletes. These parents choose specific activities that will help their kids excel.

People don't say very often that parents who push their kids athletically are raising unhappy people.

That's because in the Asian community it is simply implied that you will become either: doctor, lawyer, engineer (computer or other)... second choice: finance or consulting. Maybe the younger parents are changing somewhat. Maybe they feel that there are good job prospects in these professions, but this is the general attitude of most Asian parents.

Yes, I know, this is not true IRL. But this is what Asian parents have traditionally believed in. Like I said, maybe it is changing, but I'm pretty sure most Asian tiger parents won't want their kid being a K teacher, Professor in college - ok, but not a K teacher.

This may come as a surprise to you but the majority of Asians - even those born and educated in the US - are not doctors, lawyers, engineers or even in finance or consulting.

In my circle of friends, the majority are one of these. And how do you know this... because you know several that are not? Yes, I know a few that are not either, but most of the ones I know (late 30's to 40's) are.

And to the poster that stated that Asians wouldn't put a teacher on the blacklist, but they would a writer... this is my point. A writer is not one of the professions Asian parents want their kids to go into because for the most part, there's no money in it. The term "starving artist" also refers to writers in their minds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is rare with tiger parenting for children to be forced to pursue a major that they have no interest in.

If you really want to know how it works, it is a gradual process of directing them into certain fields from a very young age where there are good employment prospects. It is a barely perceptible process and they are channeled into areas of interest that they show some aptitude. The kids also socialize with a peer group that has similar motivations and a wish to succeed.

Have you ever noticed the number of Asians - including South Asians - who end up in the medical profession? Why do you think this happens? It is not some innate talent that they have. It is the result of this channeling that occurs from a very young age. Those who don't have the academic talent or proficiency to pursue medicine end up majoring in some other field that offers good employment prospects.

You will rarely hear an Asian parent tell their child to pursue his/her passion unless it is one that offers employment prospects down the line. From the standpoint of an Asian parent, the primary purpose in going into college is to attain the education to be well employed. I have seen discussions on DCUM where posters have argued for education for the sake of education where employment prospects are of secondary importance. This is a concept that would be almost alien to most tiger parents.

You make it sound so gentle. Maybe sometimes it is. Maybe this is how parents perceive it. I can think of one girl who told my daughter that her mother has already told her (in high school) where she must go to college and what she must major in. Her mother has chosen her profession. She has no interest in any of this but has been raised to just go along, and so she will. She is incapable of making any big decisions on her own. Perhaps she does have some aptitude for that particular area but she has been tutored in it since she was young so its hard to know. I know another man who hasn't spoken with his parents in 20 years because he had to break away from it. They have never met their grandchildren.

This does not strike me as benign.

I can only comment on my experience and that of people who I know personally. I am sure there are instances where parents do not use the gentle approach.

One of the things I told my children was that I was fine with them pursuing any profession they felt was best suited to them but I always emphasized that they should choose a major that would enable them to get a job after they graduated. I never did tell them to pursue a specific career based on what they could earn. However, one thing I did tell them was that if they wanted to enjoy the lifestyle they had as children with vacations abroad, discretionary income to spend on various luxuries, a nice home, etc they would not be able to do so unless they earned enough money. It was the one and only time that I told them what we spent monthly on average to maintain our lifestyle and what that would translate into in terms of gross income.

This would be an eye-opener for them because a teenager living at home obviously cannot relate to how much money is needed to maintain a specific lifestyle. One of my children wanted to be a teacher and I supported her in that wish with the very same cautionary advice about expenditures and lifestyle. She chose not to become a teacher after she finished her undergrad and went into consulting. It was the first time that she lived on her own earning her own way and she realized that she could not maintain the sort of lifestyle she wanted with the income she was making, although it was a lot more than a teacher made. So she went on to do a MBA from one of the top schools and is today a senior executive in a major company. She is happy in her career and is being well rewarded for all of the hard work she put in through school and college and the jobs she had.

So does this constitute coercion? Is it the gentler approach I/you mentioned? Is it responsible parenting? Should I have said nothing, let her become a teacher and find out the hard way that income limitations would impact her lifestyle?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I can only comment on my experience and that of people who I know personally. I am sure there are instances where parents do not use the gentle approach.

One of the things I told my children was that I was fine with them pursuing any profession they felt was best suited to them but I always emphasized that they should choose a major that would enable them to get a job after they graduated. I never did tell them to pursue a specific career based on what they could earn. However, one thing I did tell them was that if they wanted to enjoy the lifestyle they had as children with vacations abroad, discretionary income to spend on various luxuries, a nice home, etc they would not be able to do so unless they earned enough money. It was the one and only time that I told them what we spent monthly on average to maintain our lifestyle and what that would translate into in terms of gross income.

This would be an eye-opener for them because a teenager living at home obviously cannot relate to how much money is needed to maintain a specific lifestyle. One of my children wanted to be a teacher and I supported her in that wish with the very same cautionary advice about expenditures and lifestyle. She chose not to become a teacher after she finished her undergrad and went into consulting. It was the first time that she lived on her own earning her own way and she realized that she could not maintain the sort of lifestyle she wanted with the income she was making, although it was a lot more than a teacher made. So she went on to do a MBA from one of the top schools and is today a senior executive in a major company. She is happy in her career and is being well rewarded for all of the hard work she put in through school and college and the jobs she had.

So does this constitute coercion? Is it the gentler approach I/you mentioned? Is it responsible parenting? Should I have said nothing, let her become a teacher and find out the hard way that income limitations would impact her lifestyle?

I wasn't there, of course, and different people have different values. But "If you become a teacher, no way will you be able to spend all the money we spend" is not what I consider support. Nor do I consider financial compensation the only measure of success.

[Anonymous]

Wow, I would much rather my DC be a teacher than an MBA/executive. Teaching is a higher calling. I have several friends who are teachers married to teachers and they aren't poor. They certainly don't earn as much as executives but they can raise their families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I would much rather my DC be a teacher than an MBA/executive. Teaching is a higher calling. I have several friends who are teachers married to teachers and they aren't poor. They certainly don't earn as much as executives but they can raise their families.

Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway. I would say the same of someone who only wants to pursue medicine because it pays well. They'd be a terrible doctor. I don't think PP's lesson in finances adds up to Tiger Mom level of pressure. It's important for all kids to understand what things cost, just as it's important for parents to respect their kids' choice to become a starving artist -- if it is done in service to a great passion and calling, not just out of ignorance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I would much rather my DC be a teacher than an MBA/executive. Teaching is a higher calling. I have several friends who are teachers married to teachers and they aren't poor. They certainly don't earn as much as executives but they can raise their families.

Yes, teaching is a calling. Which is why someone easily dissuaded from pursuing it because it does not pay a lot probably would not have been a good teacher anyway. I would say the same of someone who only wants to pursue medicine because it pays well. They'd be a terrible doctor. I don't think PP's lesson in finances adds up to Tiger Mom level of pressure. It's important for all kids to understand what things cost, just as it's important for parents to respect their kids' choice to become a starving artist -- if it is done in service to a great passion and calling, not just out of ignorance.

There is a difference between "I would like to be a teacher, but it doesn't pay enough" and "I want to have a lot of money, so I will be a doctor". Yes?