Parents getting upset about any group invitation

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Is your son friends with the other kids? Contact your son’s closest friend’s mom in the group and invite the friend over for Halloween. If the kids want to go together, the other mom may either invite your son or ditch the group to join you. You can also suggest inviting mutual friends.

If the other mom says they have plans, then your son is not invited. Make alternative plans that are so fun your child forgets about the group. Again, these kids are six.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All of you sound like a bunch of middle schoolers. I thought I was in the teen forum and couldn’t believe what I was reading and just noticed I was in the elementary forum. I must have clicked here by mistake.

Ignore the mom and stop caring what anyone thinks. Soon enough, you won’t even know the parents of your kids friends. - mom of teens

^^^^

We've just found the mom that does this stuff on purpose.

You are bananas. OP did nothing at all wrong and the other mom sounds unhinged. I cannot imagine caring about this or confronting another parent about not being invited to something. That is psycho

Psycho is not explaining to your kids social norms. Since you can't control others behavior, stop putting yourself in the position to get blow back. It's really very simple. Shut your mouth, and nothing will happen. You can't control others so control your own behavior, right?

It’s normal to occasionally find out about something you weren’t invited to for many reasons. This wasn’t a gathering at Camp David. I’ve had a friend ask me if I’m going to So and So’s dinner on the weekend (when I didn’t even know about it, i.e. I wasn’t invited). I just say, no, I’m not. I don’t make that person feel bad for mentioning it nor do I call up the host and harangue her for not inviting me. It’s not a big deal.

Read the op. A kid mentioned it to another kid. Kids shouldn’t do that. Because look what happens.

NP. I agree that parents should instruct their children not to discuss social events at school. But parents should also teach their kids that they will not be invited to every event, and that’s okay. Frankly it’s not even clear to me that the “excluded” child is upset. It’s the mother who seems to be taking all this very badly.

The mother said her piece and then has been silent. Not sure why OP isn’t picking up on her cues that she is no longer interested in a group that didn’t include her kid. This kid found out about a party and said something to their parent. What exactly did that kid do wrong?

I don’t think anyone really did anything terribly wrong. Yes, the kid shouldn’t have talked about the event at school, but apparently we’re discussing 6 year olds here. Hurt feelings are a part of life and this could be a teachable moment for the excluded child. Instead his mother is making it worse.

But the mom is just choosing to no longer interact with OP and the moms in this group. How does that make it worse? It sounds like OP doesn't want to socialize with this woman (or have her kid socialize with this woman's son), but she also needs the more to be friendly to her.

OP's hurt feelings over the mom's silent treatment are also a "part of life" that OP is having trouble dealing with. So much so that she started this thread and posted repeatedly to defend herself and attack this woman. Who cares? There are also people I am not friends with who don't speak to me, it's never occurred to me that this is a problem.

🤦‍♀️

OP posted because she’s gone above and beyond and the other mom is acting pissy and huffy. The excluded mom needs to take it down a notch. She’s a taker with thin skin and OP should cut her off completely.

The other mom has been aloof and non committal, OPs exact words. The exact opposite of huffy and pissy. I guess OP is miffed that his woman isn’t leaping at her invitations. Her kid got hurt by this crowd once and she’s not letting it happen again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Similar situation here. My son has recently "re-friended" a neighborhood kid who he'd grown apart from. The friend has asked him repeatedly if he could come to his family's neighborhood gathering, which we have heard nothing about. There is a "popular" neighborhood clique that we have always been on the fringes of and of course, never were invited to this party. I asked another neighbor who is in that group and that I'm close with about the party, and she said there was a neighborhood group text (that I'd been left out of) and she was like "I'm sure nobody would care if you guys showed up. But we were left out as we have been with other gatherings and I wouldn't just "show up" to a party that I was never invited to. Yet, my kid keeps asking if we could go because his friend "invited" him. Not sure what the right answer is here. The hosts are not the most welcoming family, so not comfortable asking them about it. But it sucks that my kid is being left out along with us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Similar situation here. My son has recently "re-friended" a neighborhood kid who he'd grown apart from. The friend has asked him repeatedly if he could come to his family's neighborhood gathering, which we have heard nothing about. There is a "popular" neighborhood clique that we have always been on the fringes of and of course, never were invited to this party. I asked another neighbor who is in that group and that I'm close with about the party, and she said there was a neighborhood group text (that I'd been left out of) and she was like "I'm sure nobody would care if you guys showed up. But we were left out as we have been with other gatherings and I wouldn't just "show up" to a party that I was never invited to. Yet, my kid keeps asking if we could go because his friend "invited" him. Not sure what the right answer is here. The hosts are not the most welcoming family, so not comfortable asking them about it. But it sucks that my kid is being left out along with us.

Tell the other child it’s not up to you if it’s at their house. Tell the child to ask their parents not you, because it’s not your decision.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Similar situation here. My son has recently "re-friended" a neighborhood kid who he'd grown apart from. The friend has asked him repeatedly if he could come to his family's neighborhood gathering, which we have heard nothing about. There is a "popular" neighborhood clique that we have always been on the fringes of and of course, never were invited to this party. I asked another neighbor who is in that group and that I'm close with about the party, and she said there was a neighborhood group text (that I'd been left out of) and she was like "I'm sure nobody would care if you guys showed up. But we were left out as we have been with other gatherings and I wouldn't just "show up" to a party that I was never invited to. Yet, my kid keeps asking if we could go because his friend "invited" him. Not sure what the right answer is here. The hosts are not the most welcoming family, so not comfortable asking them about it. But it sucks that my kid is being left out along with us.

Tell the other child it’s not up to you if it’s at their house. Tell the child to ask their parents not you, because it’s not your decision.

Unlikely that the PP is interacting directly with this kid -- she's hearing about this second hand from her son. If that family doesn't interact with PP, it's not like she's seeing this kid at playdates or hanging with them at the playground. So PP would have to coach her son on what to say and who knows what gets lost in the translation.

We've had similar situations on occasion, with a kid at school telling my child they want to do a playdate, but when I've reached out to parents about it, they don't respond or are noncommittal. But then I'll keep hearing from my kid "Larla and I want to do a playdate." There's nothing you can do. I just tell my kid, "I texted Larla's parents but there's nothing else I can do. Maybe they are too busy for playdates."

I think some parents just only want their kids to socialize with the kids of people they are already friends with. I don't think it's even personal to me or our family other than we are an unknown quantity and it's just easier not to put in the effort.

I handle this by making sure my kid gets lots of time to socialize with other kids. We have lots of friends with kids and will plan playdates with them all the time (though none of them have kids at our school, which is the issue). Our kid is also in a couple activities and has made friends that way. She's an only so we have to work at it. She seems to have playground friends at school during recess, but for whatever reason this does not translate into playdates or birthday invites at the school. I think the issue is likely that we moved to the school in 1st and the family friendships were formed in K and people just aren't interested in expanding their circles. I personally think that's stingy but then of course I think that -- we are the new family and our kid is looking for friends and it would be a lot easier if people were more welcoming.

You can't force people to act the way you want though, so you just have to accept their behavior as a fact of the world and move on.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All of you sound like a bunch of middle schoolers. I thought I was in the teen forum and couldn’t believe what I was reading and just noticed I was in the elementary forum. I must have clicked here by mistake.

Ignore the mom and stop caring what anyone thinks. Soon enough, you won’t even know the parents of your kids friends. - mom of teens

^^^^

We've just found the mom that does this stuff on purpose.

You are bananas. OP did nothing at all wrong and the other mom sounds unhinged. I cannot imagine caring about this or confronting another parent about not being invited to something. That is psycho

Psycho is not explaining to your kids social norms. Since you can't control others behavior, stop putting yourself in the position to get blow back. It's really very simple. Shut your mouth, and nothing will happen. You can't control others so control your own behavior, right?

It’s normal to occasionally find out about something you weren’t invited to for many reasons. This wasn’t a gathering at Camp David. I’ve had a friend ask me if I’m going to So and So’s dinner on the weekend (when I didn’t even know about it, i.e. I wasn’t invited). I just say, no, I’m not. I don’t make that person feel bad for mentioning it nor do I call up the host and harangue her for not inviting me. It’s not a big deal.

Read the op. A kid mentioned it to another kid. Kids shouldn’t do that. Because look what happens.

NP. I agree that parents should instruct their children not to discuss social events at school. But parents should also teach their kids that they will not be invited to every event, and that’s okay. Frankly it’s not even clear to me that the “excluded” child is upset. It’s the mother who seems to be taking all this very badly.

The mother said her piece and then has been silent. Not sure why OP isn’t picking up on her cues that she is no longer interested in a group that didn’t include her kid. This kid found out about a party and said something to their parent. What exactly did that kid do wrong?

I don’t think anyone really did anything terribly wrong. Yes, the kid shouldn’t have talked about the event at school, but apparently we’re discussing 6 year olds here. Hurt feelings are a part of life and this could be a teachable moment for the excluded child. Instead his mother is making it worse.

But the mom is just choosing to no longer interact with OP and the moms in this group. How does that make it worse? It sounds like OP doesn't want to socialize with this woman (or have her kid socialize with this woman's son), but she also needs the more to be friendly to her.

OP's hurt feelings over the mom's silent treatment are also a "part of life" that OP is having trouble dealing with. So much so that she started this thread and posted repeatedly to defend herself and attack this woman. Who cares? There are also people I am not friends with who don't speak to me, it's never occurred to me that this is a problem.

🤦‍♀️

OP posted because she’s gone above and beyond and the other mom is acting pissy and huffy. The excluded mom needs to take it down a notch. She’s a taker with thin skin and OP should cut her off completely.

The other mom has been aloof and non committal, OPs exact words. The exact opposite of huffy and pissy. I guess OP is miffed that his woman isn’t leaping at her invitations. Her kid got hurt by this crowd once and she’s not letting it happen again.

Did you miss the part where OP said she has gone out of her way to include this mom. And that OP says hi and this mom walks right past her and doesn’t say hello back?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All of you sound like a bunch of middle schoolers. I thought I was in the teen forum and couldn’t believe what I was reading and just noticed I was in the elementary forum. I must have clicked here by mistake.

Ignore the mom and stop caring what anyone thinks. Soon enough, you won’t even know the parents of your kids friends. - mom of teens

^^^^

We've just found the mom that does this stuff on purpose.

You are bananas. OP did nothing at all wrong and the other mom sounds unhinged. I cannot imagine caring about this or confronting another parent about not being invited to something. That is psycho

Psycho is not explaining to your kids social norms. Since you can't control others behavior, stop putting yourself in the position to get blow back. It's really very simple. Shut your mouth, and nothing will happen. You can't control others so control your own behavior, right?

It’s normal to occasionally find out about something you weren’t invited to for many reasons. This wasn’t a gathering at Camp David. I’ve had a friend ask me if I’m going to So and So’s dinner on the weekend (when I didn’t even know about it, i.e. I wasn’t invited). I just say, no, I’m not. I don’t make that person feel bad for mentioning it nor do I call up the host and harangue her for not inviting me. It’s not a big deal.

Read the op. A kid mentioned it to another kid. Kids shouldn’t do that. Because look what happens.

NP. I agree that parents should instruct their children not to discuss social events at school. But parents should also teach their kids that they will not be invited to every event, and that’s okay. Frankly it’s not even clear to me that the “excluded” child is upset. It’s the mother who seems to be taking all this very badly.

The mother said her piece and then has been silent. Not sure why OP isn’t picking up on her cues that she is no longer interested in a group that didn’t include her kid. This kid found out about a party and said something to their parent. What exactly did that kid do wrong?

I don’t think anyone really did anything terribly wrong. Yes, the kid shouldn’t have talked about the event at school, but apparently we’re discussing 6 year olds here. Hurt feelings are a part of life and this could be a teachable moment for the excluded child. Instead his mother is making it worse.

But the mom is just choosing to no longer interact with OP and the moms in this group. How does that make it worse? It sounds like OP doesn't want to socialize with this woman (or have her kid socialize with this woman's son), but she also needs the more to be friendly to her.

OP's hurt feelings over the mom's silent treatment are also a "part of life" that OP is having trouble dealing with. So much so that she started this thread and posted repeatedly to defend herself and attack this woman. Who cares? There are also people I am not friends with who don't speak to me, it's never occurred to me that this is a problem.

🤦‍♀️

OP posted because she’s gone above and beyond and the other mom is acting pissy and huffy. The excluded mom needs to take it down a notch. She’s a taker with thin skin and OP should cut her off completely.

The other mom has been aloof and non committal, OPs exact words. The exact opposite of huffy and pissy. I guess OP is miffed that his woman isn’t leaping at her invitations. Her kid got hurt by this crowd once and she’s not letting it happen again.

Did you miss the part where OP said she has gone out of her way to include this mom. And that OP says hi and this mom walks right past her and doesn’t say hello back?

The mom wanted her kid included. She never wanted to be OPs best friend. Why does this woman owe OP kindness after being shown OPs real colors?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Similar situation here. My son has recently "re-friended" a neighborhood kid who he'd grown apart from. The friend has asked him repeatedly if he could come to his family's neighborhood gathering, which we have heard nothing about. There is a "popular" neighborhood clique that we have always been on the fringes of and of course, never were invited to this party. I asked another neighbor who is in that group and that I'm close with about the party, and she said there was a neighborhood group text (that I'd been left out of) and she was like "I'm sure nobody would care if you guys showed up. But we were left out as we have been with other gatherings and I wouldn't just "show up" to a party that I was never invited to. Yet, my kid keeps asking if we could go because his friend "invited" him. Not sure what the right answer is here. The hosts are not the most welcoming family, so not comfortable asking them about it. But it sucks that my kid is being left out along with us.

Tell the other child it’s not up to you if it’s at their house. Tell the child to ask their parents not you, because it’s not your decision.

Unlikely that the PP is interacting directly with this kid -- she's hearing about this second hand from her son. If that family doesn't interact with PP, it's not like she's seeing this kid at playdates or hanging with them at the playground. So PP would have to coach her son on what to say and who knows what gets lost in the translation.

We've had similar situations on occasion, with a kid at school telling my child they want to do a playdate, but when I've reached out to parents about it, they don't respond or are noncommittal. But then I'll keep hearing from my kid "Larla and I want to do a playdate." There's nothing you can do. I just tell my kid, "I texted Larla's parents but there's nothing else I can do. Maybe they are too busy for playdates."

I think some parents just only want their kids to socialize with the kids of people they are already friends with. I don't think it's even personal to me or our family other than we are an unknown quantity and it's just easier not to put in the effort.

I handle this by making sure my kid gets lots of time to socialize with other kids. We have lots of friends with kids and will plan playdates with them all the time (though none of them have kids at our school, which is the issue). Our kid is also in a couple activities and has made friends that way. She's an only so we have to work at it. She seems to have playground friends at school during recess, but for whatever reason this does not translate into playdates or birthday invites at the school. I think the issue is likely that we moved to the school in 1st and the family friendships were formed in K and people just aren't interested in expanding their circles. I personally think that's stingy but then of course I think that -- we are the new family and our kid is looking for friends and it would be a lot easier if people were more welcoming.

You can't force people to act the way you want though, so you just have to accept their behavior as a fact of the world and move on.

Then tell your child that your child’s friend needs to ask his/her parents.

Agree with most of the rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Similar situation here. My son has recently "re-friended" a neighborhood kid who he'd grown apart from. The friend has asked him repeatedly if he could come to his family's neighborhood gathering, which we have heard nothing about. There is a "popular" neighborhood clique that we have always been on the fringes of and of course, never were invited to this party. I asked another neighbor who is in that group and that I'm close with about the party, and she said there was a neighborhood group text (that I'd been left out of) and she was like "I'm sure nobody would care if you guys showed up. But we were left out as we have been with other gatherings and I wouldn't just "show up" to a party that I was never invited to. Yet, my kid keeps asking if we could go because his friend "invited" him. Not sure what the right answer is here. The hosts are not the most welcoming family, so not comfortable asking them about it. But it sucks that my kid is being left out along with us.

I think you have two options, either of which is fine. First option: You reach out to the family; welcoming or not. Just say my kid keeps insisting that your kid invited him over on whatever day. Play dumb as to specifics. Just say: Is that true? No worries either way of course, I was just trying to make different plans and my kid keeps insisting he is busy. Second option: You tell your kid to tell the other kid that the invitation *must* come through his parents. Your kid should say that he would love to go but his mom says that his parents have to reach out. Then the kid will tell his parents if he really wants your kid to come and know it's on them if your kid doesn't show up. I have deployed both approaches with success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.

Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All of you sound like a bunch of middle schoolers. I thought I was in the teen forum and couldn’t believe what I was reading and just noticed I was in the elementary forum. I must have clicked here by mistake.

Ignore the mom and stop caring what anyone thinks. Soon enough, you won’t even know the parents of your kids friends. - mom of teens

^^^^

We've just found the mom that does this stuff on purpose.

You are bananas. OP did nothing at all wrong and the other mom sounds unhinged. I cannot imagine caring about this or confronting another parent about not being invited to something. That is psycho

Psycho is not explaining to your kids social norms. Since you can't control others behavior, stop putting yourself in the position to get blow back. It's really very simple. Shut your mouth, and nothing will happen. You can't control others so control your own behavior, right?

It’s normal to occasionally find out about something you weren’t invited to for many reasons. This wasn’t a gathering at Camp David. I’ve had a friend ask me if I’m going to So and So’s dinner on the weekend (when I didn’t even know about it, i.e. I wasn’t invited). I just say, no, I’m not. I don’t make that person feel bad for mentioning it nor do I call up the host and harangue her for not inviting me. It’s not a big deal.

Read the op. A kid mentioned it to another kid. Kids shouldn’t do that. Because look what happens.

NP. I agree that parents should instruct their children not to discuss social events at school. But parents should also teach their kids that they will not be invited to every event, and that’s okay. Frankly it’s not even clear to me that the “excluded” child is upset. It’s the mother who seems to be taking all this very badly.

The mother said her piece and then has been silent. Not sure why OP isn’t picking up on her cues that she is no longer interested in a group that didn’t include her kid. This kid found out about a party and said something to their parent. What exactly did that kid do wrong?

I don’t think anyone really did anything terribly wrong. Yes, the kid shouldn’t have talked about the event at school, but apparently we’re discussing 6 year olds here. Hurt feelings are a part of life and this could be a teachable moment for the excluded child. Instead his mother is making it worse.

But the mom is just choosing to no longer interact with OP and the moms in this group. How does that make it worse? It sounds like OP doesn't want to socialize with this woman (or have her kid socialize with this woman's son), but she also needs the more to be friendly to her.

OP's hurt feelings over the mom's silent treatment are also a "part of life" that OP is having trouble dealing with. So much so that she started this thread and posted repeatedly to defend herself and attack this woman. Who cares? There are also people I am not friends with who don't speak to me, it's never occurred to me that this is a problem.

🤦‍♀️

OP posted because she’s gone above and beyond and the other mom is acting pissy and huffy. The excluded mom needs to take it down a notch. She’s a taker with thin skin and OP should cut her off completely.

The other mom has been aloof and non committal, OPs exact words. The exact opposite of huffy and pissy. I guess OP is miffed that his woman isn’t leaping at her invitations. Her kid got hurt by this crowd once and she’s not letting it happen again.

Did you miss the part where OP said she has gone out of her way to include this mom. And that OP says hi and this mom walks right past her and doesn’t say hello back?

DP but you are conflating two separate anecdotes. OP says she has included this mom in plans with the kids a few times in the past (letting her know that other families are taking kids for ice cream at the park after school for instance) and that the mom has been "aloof and noncommittal" about these invites. This is meaningless to me. I don't think inviting a kid from class to an event with other kids from class is going above and beyond -- that just seems normal to me. And an aloof or noncommittal response would not bother me. People often say things like "we'll see if we can make it, thanks for letting us know" to that kind of thing and that seems fine. It seems unreasonable to expect a big, enthusiastic yes every time to something like this.

Separately, the woman (or her kid, more likely) was upset that a few of the moms in class planned a visit during one of these "open gym" Fridays, and the woman has been giving OP the silent treatment since then. This does seem like an overreaction but I feel like we don't really have all the info. I think OP might be overreacting to the woman's behavior (they aren't friends so it doesn't sound like they normally interact a lot, which would make "silent treatment" really not that big of a deal). Or maybe the woman is being really over the top and rude. It's honestly hard to tell based on OP's posts, as OP doesn't seem like the most reliable narrator.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.

Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.

So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.

Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.

So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.

Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.