Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Similar situation here. My son has recently "re-friended" a neighborhood kid who he'd grown apart from. The friend has asked him repeatedly if he could come to his family's neighborhood gathering, which we have heard nothing about. There is a "popular" neighborhood clique that we have always been on the fringes of and of course, never were invited to this party. I asked another neighbor who is in that group and that I'm close with about the party, and she said there was a neighborhood group text (that I'd been left out of) and she was like "I'm sure nobody would care if you guys showed up. But we were left out as we have been with other gatherings and I wouldn't just "show up" to a party that I was never invited to. Yet, my kid keeps asking if we could go because his friend "invited" him. Not sure what the right answer is here. The hosts are not the most welcoming family, so not comfortable asking them about it. But it sucks that my kid is being left out along with us.
Tell the other child it’s not up to you if it’s at their house. Tell the child to ask their parents not you, because it’s not your decision.
Unlikely that the PP is interacting directly with this kid -- she's hearing about this second hand from her son. If that family doesn't interact with PP, it's not like she's seeing this kid at playdates or hanging with them at the playground. So PP would have to coach her son on what to say and who knows what gets lost in the translation.
We've had similar situations on occasion, with a kid at school telling my child they want to do a playdate, but when I've reached out to parents about it, they don't respond or are noncommittal. But then I'll keep hearing from my kid "Larla and I want to do a playdate." There's nothing you can do. I just tell my kid, "I texted Larla's parents but there's nothing else I can do. Maybe they are too busy for playdates."
I think some parents just only want their kids to socialize with the kids of people they are already friends with. I don't think it's even personal to me or our family other than we are an unknown quantity and it's just easier not to put in the effort.
I handle this by making sure my kid gets lots of time to socialize with other kids. We have lots of friends with kids and will plan playdates with them all the time (though none of them have kids at our school, which is the issue). Our kid is also in a couple activities and has made friends that way. She's an only so we have to work at it. She seems to have playground friends at school during recess, but for whatever reason this does not translate into playdates or birthday invites at the school. I think the issue is likely that we moved to the school in 1st and the family friendships were formed in K and people just aren't interested in expanding their circles. I personally think that's stingy but then of course I think that -- we are the new family and our kid is looking for friends and it would be a lot easier if people were more welcoming.
You can't force people to act the way you want though, so you just have to accept their behavior as a fact of the world and move on.
PP here. Yes, that’s right. Their interactions mostly happen at school or on the bus, with very little contact between me and the parents. In larger social settings, the parents tend to ignore me as I’m clearly not part of their “popular neighborhood crowd” and they seem to encourage their son to spend time with those kids instead. The whole thing feels a bit like high school drama, honestly. I don’t have much interest in being part of their gatherings, except that my son really wants to go since his friend keeps inviting him, and they genuinely enjoy spending time together.
The kids just started middle school, and my son is forming other friendships and getting included in different things, but he especially values this one. It’s just unfortunate because his friend is a truly great kid — they have a lot in common — and my son feels like he’s missing out on spending time with someone he really likes simply because the parents clearly don’t see our family as “worthy.”
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
Of course not. But if you invite them, they may invite your child. And if these kids aren’t available ask the other kids your kids are friends with who are. These kids are six, and these friend groups change. Who gets so caught up in this?
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
Of course not. But if you invite them, they may invite your child. And if these kids aren’t available ask the other kids your kids are friends with who are. These kids are six, and these friend groups change. Who gets so caught up in this?
My DD is 12 not 6. Friend groups don’t change a much as everyone is insisting they do. She is just going to go with friends outside of school but kind of a shame she can’t go with the friends at school because “not everyone can be invited to everything” right? Isn’t that the mantra?
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.
You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Similar situation here. My son has recently "re-friended" a neighborhood kid who he'd grown apart from. The friend has asked him repeatedly if he could come to his family's neighborhood gathering, which we have heard nothing about. There is a "popular" neighborhood clique that we have always been on the fringes of and of course, never were invited to this party. I asked another neighbor who is in that group and that I'm close with about the party, and she said there was a neighborhood group text (that I'd been left out of) and she was like "I'm sure nobody would care if you guys showed up. But we were left out as we have been with other gatherings and I wouldn't just "show up" to a party that I was never invited to. Yet, my kid keeps asking if we could go because his friend "invited" him. Not sure what the right answer is here. The hosts are not the most welcoming family, so not comfortable asking them about it. But it sucks that my kid is being left out along with us.
Tell the other child it’s not up to you if it’s at their house. Tell the child to ask their parents not you, because it’s not your decision.
Unlikely that the PP is interacting directly with this kid -- she's hearing about this second hand from her son. If that family doesn't interact with PP, it's not like she's seeing this kid at playdates or hanging with them at the playground. So PP would have to coach her son on what to say and who knows what gets lost in the translation.
We've had similar situations on occasion, with a kid at school telling my child they want to do a playdate, but when I've reached out to parents about it, they don't respond or are noncommittal. But then I'll keep hearing from my kid "Larla and I want to do a playdate." There's nothing you can do. I just tell my kid, "I texted Larla's parents but there's nothing else I can do. Maybe they are too busy for playdates."
I think some parents just only want their kids to socialize with the kids of people they are already friends with. I don't think it's even personal to me or our family other than we are an unknown quantity and it's just easier not to put in the effort.
I handle this by making sure my kid gets lots of time to socialize with other kids. We have lots of friends with kids and will plan playdates with them all the time (though none of them have kids at our school, which is the issue). Our kid is also in a couple activities and has made friends that way. She's an only so we have to work at it. She seems to have playground friends at school during recess, but for whatever reason this does not translate into playdates or birthday invites at the school. I think the issue is likely that we moved to the school in 1st and the family friendships were formed in K and people just aren't interested in expanding their circles. I personally think that's stingy but then of course I think that -- we are the new family and our kid is looking for friends and it would be a lot easier if people were more welcoming.
You can't force people to act the way you want though, so you just have to accept their behavior as a fact of the world and move on.
PP here. Yes, that’s right. Their interactions mostly happen at school or on the bus, with very little contact between me and the parents. In larger social settings, the parents tend to ignore me as I’m clearly not part of their “popular neighborhood crowd” and they seem to encourage their son to spend time with those kids instead. The whole thing feels a bit like high school drama, honestly. I don’t have much interest in being part of their gatherings, except that my son really wants to go since his friend keeps inviting him, and they genuinely enjoy spending time together.
The kids just started middle school, and my son is forming other friendships and getting included in different things, but he especially values this one. It’s just unfortunate because his friend is a truly great kid — they have a lot in common — and my son feels like he’s missing out on spending time with someone he really likes simply because the parents clearly don’t see our family as “worthy.”
This is so gutting. It's one thing when adults self sort by social status and cliques. That's life. And it's also one thing when kids do this themselves within their community. But it's heartbreaking when kids are sorted according to their parents' social status. Because it makes you realize how arbitrary it is. People will talk about "shared values" and "compatible personalities" but really it's usually much shallower than that.
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.
You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.
You call it weird advice, but my each of my kids have great groups of friends that they've nurtured over the years.
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.
You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.
You call it weird advice, but my each of my kids have great groups of friends that they've nurtured over the years.
So you don’t know what the neighborhood cliques are like that have the block parties and tell everyone their kids “has plans” are like. We know. The adults run the show, you obviously don’t get it.
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.
You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.
You call it weird advice, but my each of my kids have great groups of friends that they've nurtured over the years.
So you don’t know what the neighborhood cliques are like that have the block parties and tell everyone their kids “has plans” are like. We know. The adults run the show, you obviously don’t get it.
Yes, I do. Like I said, we've had years of not being invited. But also like I said, if you accept it and move on, you can teach your kids not to be defined by these groups. You can encourage them to form good friendships independent of them.
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Similar situation here. My son has recently "re-friended" a neighborhood kid who he'd grown apart from. The friend has asked him repeatedly if he could come to his family's neighborhood gathering, which we have heard nothing about. There is a "popular" neighborhood clique that we have always been on the fringes of and of course, never were invited to this party. I asked another neighbor who is in that group and that I'm close with about the party, and she said there was a neighborhood group text (that I'd been left out of) and she was like "I'm sure nobody would care if you guys showed up. But we were left out as we have been with other gatherings and I wouldn't just "show up" to a party that I was never invited to. Yet, my kid keeps asking if we could go because his friend "invited" him. Not sure what the right answer is here. The hosts are not the most welcoming family, so not comfortable asking them about it. But it sucks that my kid is being left out along with us.
Tell the other child it’s not up to you if it’s at their house. Tell the child to ask their parents not you, because it’s not your decision.
Unlikely that the PP is interacting directly with this kid -- she's hearing about this second hand from her son. If that family doesn't interact with PP, it's not like she's seeing this kid at playdates or hanging with them at the playground. So PP would have to coach her son on what to say and who knows what gets lost in the translation.
We've had similar situations on occasion, with a kid at school telling my child they want to do a playdate, but when I've reached out to parents about it, they don't respond or are noncommittal. But then I'll keep hearing from my kid "Larla and I want to do a playdate." There's nothing you can do. I just tell my kid, "I texted Larla's parents but there's nothing else I can do. Maybe they are too busy for playdates."
I think some parents just only want their kids to socialize with the kids of people they are already friends with. I don't think it's even personal to me or our family other than we are an unknown quantity and it's just easier not to put in the effort.
I handle this by making sure my kid gets lots of time to socialize with other kids. We have lots of friends with kids and will plan playdates with them all the time (though none of them have kids at our school, which is the issue). Our kid is also in a couple activities and has made friends that way. She's an only so we have to work at it. She seems to have playground friends at school during recess, but for whatever reason this does not translate into playdates or birthday invites at the school. I think the issue is likely that we moved to the school in 1st and the family friendships were formed in K and people just aren't interested in expanding their circles. I personally think that's stingy but then of course I think that -- we are the new family and our kid is looking for friends and it would be a lot easier if people were more welcoming.
You can't force people to act the way you want though, so you just have to accept their behavior as a fact of the world and move on.
PP here. Yes, that’s right. Their interactions mostly happen at school or on the bus, with very little contact between me and the parents. In larger social settings, the parents tend to ignore me as I’m clearly not part of their “popular neighborhood crowd” and they seem to encourage their son to spend time with those kids instead. The whole thing feels a bit like high school drama, honestly. I don’t have much interest in being part of their gatherings, except that my son really wants to go since his friend keeps inviting him, and they genuinely enjoy spending time together.
The kids just started middle school, and my son is forming other friendships and getting included in different things, but he especially values this one. It’s just unfortunate because his friend is a truly great kid — they have a lot in common — and my son feels like he’s missing out on spending time with someone he really likes simply because the parents clearly don’t see our family as “worthy.”
This is so gutting. It's one thing when adults self sort by social status and cliques. That's life. And it's also one thing when kids do this themselves within their community. But it's heartbreaking when kids are sorted according to their parents' social status. Because it makes you realize how arbitrary it is. People will talk about "shared values" and "compatible personalities" but really it's usually much shallower than that.
It is so very shallow, usually comes from the parents, and has long term impacts. The saddest part is that it is usually just one or two of them with the rest semi-oblivious or just going along to get along.
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.
You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.
You call it weird advice, but my each of my kids have great groups of friends that they've nurtured over the years.
So you don’t know what the neighborhood cliques are like that have the block parties and tell everyone their kids “has plans” are like. We know. The adults run the show, you obviously don’t get it.
Yes, I do. Like I said, we've had years of not being invited. But also like I said, if you accept it and move on, you can teach your kids not to be defined by these groups. You can encourage them to form good friendships independent of them.
I already said my DD was going with outside of school friends. That doesn’t make it ok that parents are cultivating and making these decisions for their own kids. I already have the solution, I’m discussing the problem. Why propose “just ask those kids anyway!” When it’s not likely to work? To make other people look foolish?
Can't believe there are so many people in the same situation!
And it is so arbitrary. I had a friend who decided to buy a house on one of the "cool" blocks and now shes invitef to everything, her kids are 100% included and she's all over social media with her new "crew". 12 months ago none of these women would give her the time of day or even knew her name. Just a change of address was all it took
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.
You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.
You call it weird advice, but my each of my kids have great groups of friends that they've nurtured over the years.
So you don’t know what the neighborhood cliques are like that have the block parties and tell everyone their kids “has plans” are like. We know. The adults run the show, you obviously don’t get it.
Yes, I do. Like I said, we've had years of not being invited. But also like I said, if you accept it and move on, you can teach your kids not to be defined by these groups. You can encourage them to form good friendships independent of them.
I already said my DD was going with outside of school friends. That doesn’t make it ok that parents are cultivating and making these decisions for their own kids. I already have the solution, I’m discussing the problem. Why propose “just ask those kids anyway!” When it’s not likely to work? To make other people look foolish?
Of course it’s ok for parents to do this. They have one life, just like you. They want to spend it with the people they care about just like you.
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.
You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.
You call it weird advice, but my each of my kids have great groups of friends that they've nurtured over the years.
So you don’t know what the neighborhood cliques are like that have the block parties and tell everyone their kids “has plans” are like. We know. The adults run the show, you obviously don’t get it.
Yes, I do. Like I said, we've had years of not being invited. But also like I said, if you accept it and move on, you can teach your kids not to be defined by these groups. You can encourage them to form good friendships independent of them.
I already said my DD was going with outside of school friends. That doesn’t make it ok that parents are cultivating and making these decisions for their own kids. I already have the solution, I’m discussing the problem. Why propose “just ask those kids anyway!” When it’s not likely to work? To make other people look foolish?
Of course it’s ok for parents to do this. They have one life, just like you. They want to spend it with the people they care about just like you.
I don’t think it’s ok. The kids would like to make plans with their own friends but their parents won’t let them. I don’t live through my kids the way you and some of these parents do. “Want to spend it with people they care about?” It’s Halloween. Stay home and pass out candy the way it used to be done before the parents took over and ruined it.
Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.
OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.
So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.
The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.
Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.
Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.
The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.
These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.
For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.
OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.
This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.
I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.
The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”
The kids are six.
The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.
Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.
This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.
I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.
Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.
Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.
Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.
The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.
I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.
Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.
Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.
So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.
Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.
This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.
You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.
You call it weird advice, but my each of my kids have great groups of friends that they've nurtured over the years.
So you don’t know what the neighborhood cliques are like that have the block parties and tell everyone their kids “has plans” are like. We know. The adults run the show, you obviously don’t get it.
Yes, I do. Like I said, we've had years of not being invited. But also like I said, if you accept it and move on, you can teach your kids not to be defined by these groups. You can encourage them to form good friendships independent of them.
I already said my DD was going with outside of school friends. That doesn’t make it ok that parents are cultivating and making these decisions for their own kids. I already have the solution, I’m discussing the problem. Why propose “just ask those kids anyway!” When it’s not likely to work? To make other people look foolish?
Of course it’s ok for parents to do this. They have one life, just like you. They want to spend it with the people they care about just like you.
I don’t think it’s ok. The kids would like to make plans with their own friends but their parents won’t let them. I don’t live through my kids the way you and some of these parents do. “Want to spend it with people they care about?” It’s Halloween. Stay home and pass out candy the way it used to be done before the parents took over and ruined it.
Not only is it ok, you can’t stop people from spending their time the way if they want to. You can hate them for it and judge them for it, but all that will do is make them even less your friends.
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