How to handle a kid who does not want a Bar Mitzvah

[Anonymous]

It can be a tough call. Is this kid more likely to practice Judaism as an adult if he is forced to have a Bar Mitzvah? Or if he chooses to opt out?

[Anonymous]

I have not read all 10 pages. Start by talking to your rabbi. Perhaps a smaller role for your child is possible. You don't have to have the service to become a Bar Mitzvah. It happens just by turning 13!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's sad to me that kids are forced to "do" religion even when they don't want to. Why can't they choose? It's not a matter of health and safety, or developing their brains. I don't let my kids skip brushing their teeth or go out of school, but if they wanted to stop going to religious services or not participate in ceremonies, I would let them.

They're "doing" ancestral and community connection to maintain a chain thousands of years old. It isn't "religion" in the Protestant sense.

This.

You all standing by this and insisting on it is the reason generational trauma and guilt exists.

Perhaps. It is also the reason the Jewish people still exists. We are the people who remember. It is our most basic operating principle since Yavne.

Your ideas about guilt are rooted in Protestant individualism. We think in a fundamentally different way.

A pp brought up A Letter in the Scroll. Here's a famous quote from it: “I am a Jew because, knowing the story of my people, I hear their call to write the next chapter. I did not come from nowhere; I have a past, and if any past commands anyone this past commands me. I am a Jew because only if I remain a Jew will the story of a hundred generations live on in me. I continue their journey because, having come this far, I may not let it and them fail. I cannot be the missing letter in the scroll.”

Lol. I posted upthread about my non-catholic confirmation…that’s a lot of guilt to foist on a kid. To me it sounds even worse. No wonder OP is upset because he kid may be the missing letter in the scroll letting down millions who walked before him. But, sure if you want him to obligingly say the words…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's sad to me that kids are forced to "do" religion even when they don't want to. Why can't they choose? It's not a matter of health and safety, or developing their brains. I don't let my kids skip brushing their teeth or go out of school, but if they wanted to stop going to religious services or not participate in ceremonies, I would let them.

They're "doing" ancestral and community connection to maintain a chain thousands of years old. It isn't "religion" in the Protestant sense.

This.

You all standing by this and insisting on it is the reason generational trauma and guilt exists.

Perhaps. It is also the reason the Jewish people still exists. We are the people who remember. It is our most basic operating principle since Yavne.

Your ideas about guilt are rooted in Protestant individualism. We think in a fundamentally different way.

A pp brought up A Letter in the Scroll. Here's a famous quote from it: “I am a Jew because, knowing the story of my people, I hear their call to write the next chapter. I did not come from nowhere; I have a past, and if any past commands anyone this past commands me. I am a Jew because only if I remain a Jew will the story of a hundred generations live on in me. I continue their journey because, having come this far, I may not let it and them fail. I cannot be the missing letter in the scroll.”

Lol. I posted upthread about my non-catholic confirmation…that’s a lot of guilt to foist on a kid. To me it sounds even worse. No wonder OP is upset because he kid may be the missing letter in the scroll letting down millions who walked before him. But, sure if you want him to obligingly say the words…

I think there's a thread in off-topic called "I have no culture" (or something) that would benefit from your enthusiastic participation far more than this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We had an identical experience. I did not force my son to have one. As a kid I was forced to go through all the Catholic sacraments, because my Jewish mother and Catholic father decided without my input that I should be Catholic. I hated and resented having a religion I didn't choose forced on me - even moreso because at one point I had to do Confirmation, around bar mitzvah age, and everyone kept emphasizing how it marked my choice to be Catholic. Except I was forced and it didn't. It left me with a bad taste about forced religious rituals, so when my son didn't want a bar mitzvah I didn't force him.

I don't think forcing a kid to have one will make Jewish - it might even do the opposite. And you don't have to have one in order to be Jewish. So that's why I didn't force it.

That’s horrifying. Your poor maternal grandparents.

Love this megalomania, so typical. No care at all for the "poor" Catholic paternal grandparents.

Your AS AF respond is alas, also so typical. Gross.

What's AS about pointing out your ugly biases against the Catholic grandparents? You sound like the bigot yourself.

What's gross is shrieking "antisemite" every time somebody disagrees with you on an issue like which grandparents get to pass down their religion.

Surely you can’t be that stupid? Typical megalomania and shrieking is AS trope that one or bigots - probably you once or twice uses over and over DCUM, whenever Jews express themselves. It’s indeed gross.

Please, grow up. PP expressed empathy for the "poor" Jewish grandparents and ignored the Catholic grandparents on the other side of the family. Bigotry at its finest.

What is gross to me is the idea of controlling one’s descendants. Do you really expect your grandchildren to practice a religion simply to honor you and your beliefs? That sounds insane to me. Someday when I have grandchildren I will be so happy just knowing they are physically and emotionally strong. Let people live their lives and find their own faith. How degrading to think our grandparents’ religious values take precedence over our own. No I just cannot roll like that.

I think it’s part of your majority religion privilege for you to feel like that, honestly. It’s very challenging to sublimate that privilege to under the lived experiences of a minority religion or ethnoreligious group.

I didn’t mention my religious affiliation actually - just my personal values. It’s human rights kind of thing. I try to live by my personal values. They may or may not reflect my dead ancestors’ religious beliefs.

Your statements are ego-driven and narcissism-forward, and cloaking it in "human rights" is particularly myopic and atonal, or as the kids would say "cringe." Your personal values need some work, I guess. It is not a human rights violation to give your child literacy into their heritage language even if there is an attendant religious practice (note: not religious belief) attached to it. One doubts you would say the same to an Indian parent who occasionally takes their kid to a temple and teaches them Gujarati. or a Chinese parent that enrolls their kid in a weekend school. Jewish practice does not require a belief in a higher power. It is a practice that requires practice, only. If a kid does not have minimal literacy, which is what a bar mitzvah is supposed to lead to - they cannot help others who do believe, practice, because Judaism is a communal religion lar It is not a requirement - and if the kid is miserable, there are other ways to promote Jewish literacy. But promoting literacy is not a human rights abuse - and if you think it is, that is so deeply steeped in privilege...cringe.

I am the pp you responded to. For what it’s worth I am Jewish . and comfortable with my value system, my spirituality and my religious beliefs. I was not aware that Judaism is not a religion - this is news to me. If part of the “practice” is chastising others for opposing views that is definitely not something I would choose to be a part of. I guess I just don’t get it. But I don’t think that makes me a narcissist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son has just started the more intense phase of Bar Mitzvah prep and hates it. He fights us on having to practice, says he doesn't consider himself to be Jewish so does not want to have a Bar Mitzvah. We are reaching out to the (conservative) temple to talk it through, but I am interested in how others might handle it. On the one hand, I hate to teach him the lesson that he can get out of doing anything he doesn't like. On the other hand, he is overall a very hard working kid who will do his regular homework and even additional enrichment work (he asked us to sign him up for Russian School of Math) without us having to bug him at at all. So that makes me think this is more than tween laziness and we should respect his choice.

One complicating factor is that he is old for his grade so he hasn't been to any friend's bar mitzvah's yet (and he does not have many Jewish friends from school). Also zoom Hebrew school led to him being behind in Hebrew so the prep is hard for him. He did not want a party for his Bar Mitzvah so we were going to take a bonus short vacation and bring his best friend, but he is happy to give that up (even though the vacation was his idea) if it means no Bar Mitzvah.

My DH was originally more invested in forcing my son to continue but now even he is wondering if we are doing more harm than good by continuing, given that the long-term goal is for him to consider himself Jewish as an adult.

Ever heard of Freedom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same poster again: we get to speak up for our needs just like anyone else. You just can't handle it when we're not consigned to the past and replaced.

FFS. Jews have "needs" to force their kids into classes the kids don't want?

NP. Yes, just like many parents have "needs" to force kids to go to school when their kids might prefer to screw around on their iPads all day. If you want to be Jewish actively, sometimes that means you have to go do stuff. Like go to services and learn customs.

But the kid DOESN'T want to be Jewish actively. That's the whole point.

Some families have different values. Just because they’re not your values doesn’t make them less important.

dp Notice the dodge and weave on this one! You never answered the question. Of course, if the kid wanted to have a Bar Mitzvah and happily practiced no one would bat an eye or denigrate their religion. But the kid does not consider himself Jewish. You can force him but,when an adult he can choose what he wants to do and there is nothing that op can do. It has nothing to do with my values or your values being important or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here, thanks to the PPs who provided helpful perspective.

We met with the rabbi. We are going to pare back what my son has to read (no haftarah!) and limit his practice to 20 min, 4 times a week (vs 30 min 6 times a week, which was the original expectation and was stressing him out). She will talk to him and make it very clear that she does not expect him to be believe in god or care if he believes in god and that it is not her job to make him believe in god. We will talk to him about how just as we can't guarantee that he will need algebra in his adult life but he has to learn it anyway, he needs to go through the Bar Mitzvah process because as his parents we think it makes sense for him to be well prepared to participate in a Jewish community when he is older if he wants to do so.

Let's see if he goes for it. I wouldn't. Algebra is different - it trains the mind and is required to do other forms of math (and to get into college) - which he presumably wants to do.

Maybe he'll like that the Rabbi isn't pushing God, but I wouldn't be swayed. I'd think the rabbi was hypocritical and would wonder if the whole synagogue was just a charade.

Please tell us your son's reaction. I hope for your sake that he goes for it.

Dp. I disagree about Algebra. Not everyone is capable but kids are failing basic math so that should come first.

A better analogy is kids who have to go to language/culture schools. Like if you’re Korean or Korean American and you send your kid to Saturday Korean school, and he tells you he’s not interested in the school or its periodic public language demos and doesn’t feel Korean. Do you make him go? I would. He can decide never to speak Korean as an adult but he needs the language and cultural background.

So if your child goes because you force him and doesn't participate and doesn't study and maybe disruptive that is ok with you? Is that being productive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same poster again: we get to speak up for our needs just like anyone else. You just can't handle it when we're not consigned to the past and replaced.

FFS. Jews have "needs" to force their kids into classes the kids don't want?

NP. Yes, just like many parents have "needs" to force kids to go to school when their kids might prefer to screw around on their iPads all day. If you want to be Jewish actively, sometimes that means you have to go do stuff. Like go to services and learn customs.

But the kid DOESN'T want to be Jewish actively. That's the whole point.

This is a hilarious argument, really. How many Christian kids want to go to Sunday school?? I don't remember a single one. How many kids want to take violin lessons, play the piano, do swim lessons, or go to after school tutoring? Not a whole lot. As parents we force them to do things we think will benefit them in the long run. I was personally against forcing the bar mitzvah on the kid (I didn't force mine to have one), but at the same time I totally understand why a parent would. This is the kind of choice parents make for their children all the time, so skip the judgement unless you are letting your kid eat candy for breakfast, skip his homework, and play video games all day.

My parents allowed me to quit Catholic church and any other activity I did not want to pursue except swimming because that was a life skill. As for the others natural consequences would help the child learn rather than you forcing.

Did she let you drop out of school? For a lot of Jews, a basic Jewish education is part of their overall preparation for adulthood. It doesn't really compare to the Catholic church. No one is asking this kid to believe in anything.

All I am saying is you can take a horse to water but, you can't make them drink. If you force it and don't believe than what? I understand why it is important to the op but, obviously the kid has a mind of his own

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We had an identical experience. I did not force my son to have one. As a kid I was forced to go through all the Catholic sacraments, because my Jewish mother and Catholic father decided without my input that I should be Catholic. I hated and resented having a religion I didn't choose forced on me - even moreso because at one point I had to do Confirmation, around bar mitzvah age, and everyone kept emphasizing how it marked my choice to be Catholic. Except I was forced and it didn't. It left me with a bad taste about forced religious rituals, so when my son didn't want a bar mitzvah I didn't force him.

I don't think forcing a kid to have one will make Jewish - it might even do the opposite. And you don't have to have one in order to be Jewish. So that's why I didn't force it.

That’s horrifying. Your poor maternal grandparents.

Love this megalomania, so typical. No care at all for the "poor" Catholic paternal grandparents.

Your AS AF respond is alas, also so typical. Gross.

What's AS about pointing out your ugly biases against the Catholic grandparents? You sound like the bigot yourself.

What's gross is shrieking "antisemite" every time somebody disagrees with you on an issue like which grandparents get to pass down their religion.

Surely you can’t be that stupid? Typical megalomania and shrieking is AS trope that one or bigots - probably you once or twice uses over and over DCUM, whenever Jews express themselves. It’s indeed gross.

Please, grow up. PP expressed empathy for the "poor" Jewish grandparents and ignored the Catholic grandparents on the other side of the family. Bigotry at its finest.

What is gross to me is the idea of controlling one’s descendants. Do you really expect your grandchildren to practice a religion simply to honor you and your beliefs? That sounds insane to me. Someday when I have grandchildren I will be so happy just knowing they are physically and emotionally strong. Let people live their lives and find their own faith. How degrading to think our grandparents’ religious values take precedence over our own. No I just cannot roll like that.

I think it’s part of your majority religion privilege for you to feel like that, honestly. It’s very challenging to sublimate that privilege to under the lived experiences of a minority religion or ethnoreligious group.

I didn’t mention my religious affiliation actually - just my personal values. It’s human rights kind of thing. I try to live by my personal values. They may or may not reflect my dead ancestors’ religious beliefs.

Your statements are ego-driven and narcissism-forward, and cloaking it in "human rights" is particularly myopic and atonal, or as the kids would say "cringe." Your personal values need some work, I guess. It is not a human rights violation to give your child literacy into their heritage language even if there is an attendant religious practice (note: not religious belief) attached to it. One doubts you would say the same to an Indian parent who occasionally takes their kid to a temple and teaches them Gujarati. or a Chinese parent that enrolls their kid in a weekend school. Jewish practice does not require a belief in a higher power. It is a practice that requires practice, only. If a kid does not have minimal literacy, which is what a bar mitzvah is supposed to lead to - they cannot help others who do believe, practice, because Judaism is a communal religion lar It is not a requirement - and if the kid is miserable, there are other ways to promote Jewish literacy. But promoting literacy is not a human rights abuse - and if you think it is, that is so deeply steeped in privilege...cringe.

I am the pp you responded to. For what it’s worth I am Jewish . and comfortable with my value system, my spirituality and my religious beliefs. I was not aware that Judaism is not a religion - this is news to me. If part of the “practice” is chastising others for opposing views that is definitely not something I would choose to be a part of. I guess I just don’t get it. But I don’t think that makes me a narcissist.

#wearing Jew-face online.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same poster again: we get to speak up for our needs just like anyone else. You just can't handle it when we're not consigned to the past and replaced.

FFS. Jews have "needs" to force their kids into classes the kids don't want?

NP. Yes, just like many parents have "needs" to force kids to go to school when their kids might prefer to screw around on their iPads all day. If you want to be Jewish actively, sometimes that means you have to go do stuff. Like go to services and learn customs.

But the kid DOESN'T want to be Jewish actively. That's the whole point.

Some families have different values. Just because they’re not your values doesn’t make them less important.

dp Notice the dodge and weave on this one! You never answered the question. Of course, if the kid wanted to have a Bar Mitzvah and happily practiced no one would bat an eye or denigrate their religion. But the kid does not consider himself Jewish. You can force him but,when an adult he can choose what he wants to do and there is nothing that op can do. It has nothing to do with my values or your values being important or not.

Sure adult is the key.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We had an identical experience. I did not force my son to have one. As a kid I was forced to go through all the Catholic sacraments, because my Jewish mother and Catholic father decided without my input that I should be Catholic. I hated and resented having a religion I didn't choose forced on me - even moreso because at one point I had to do Confirmation, around bar mitzvah age, and everyone kept emphasizing how it marked my choice to be Catholic. Except I was forced and it didn't. It left me with a bad taste about forced religious rituals, so when my son didn't want a bar mitzvah I didn't force him.

I don't think forcing a kid to have one will make Jewish - it might even do the opposite. And you don't have to have one in order to be Jewish. So that's why I didn't force it.

That’s horrifying. Your poor maternal grandparents.

Love this megalomania, so typical. No care at all for the "poor" Catholic paternal grandparents.

Your AS AF respond is alas, also so typical. Gross.

What's AS about pointing out your ugly biases against the Catholic grandparents? You sound like the bigot yourself.

What's gross is shrieking "antisemite" every time somebody disagrees with you on an issue like which grandparents get to pass down their religion.

Surely you can’t be that stupid? Typical megalomania and shrieking is AS trope that one or bigots - probably you once or twice uses over and over DCUM, whenever Jews express themselves. It’s indeed gross.

Please, grow up. PP expressed empathy for the "poor" Jewish grandparents and ignored the Catholic grandparents on the other side of the family. Bigotry at its finest.

What is gross to me is the idea of controlling one’s descendants. Do you really expect your grandchildren to practice a religion simply to honor you and your beliefs? That sounds insane to me. Someday when I have grandchildren I will be so happy just knowing they are physically and emotionally strong. Let people live their lives and find their own faith. How degrading to think our grandparents’ religious values take precedence over our own. No I just cannot roll like that.

I think it’s part of your majority religion privilege for you to feel like that, honestly. It’s very challenging to sublimate that privilege to under the lived experiences of a minority religion or ethnoreligious group.

I didn’t mention my religious affiliation actually - just my personal values. It’s human rights kind of thing. I try to live by my personal values. They may or may not reflect my dead ancestors’ religious beliefs.

Your statements are ego-driven and narcissism-forward, and cloaking it in "human rights" is particularly myopic and atonal, or as the kids would say "cringe." Your personal values need some work, I guess. It is not a human rights violation to give your child literacy into their heritage language even if there is an attendant religious practice (note: not religious belief) attached to it. One doubts you would say the same to an Indian parent who occasionally takes their kid to a temple and teaches them Gujarati. or a Chinese parent that enrolls their kid in a weekend school. Jewish practice does not require a belief in a higher power. It is a practice that requires practice, only. If a kid does not have minimal literacy, which is what a bar mitzvah is supposed to lead to - they cannot help others who do believe, practice, because Judaism is a communal religion lar It is not a requirement - and if the kid is miserable, there are other ways to promote Jewish literacy. But promoting literacy is not a human rights abuse - and if you think it is, that is so deeply steeped in privilege...cringe.

I am the pp you responded to. For what it’s worth I am Jewish . and comfortable with my value system, my spirituality and my religious beliefs. I was not aware that Judaism is not a religion - this is news to me. If part of the “practice” is chastising others for opposing views that is definitely not something I would choose to be a part of. I guess I just don’t get it. But I don’t think that makes me a narcissist.

#wearing Jew-face online.

What does this mean? Please explain. Jew-face….?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have not read all 10 pages. Start by talking to your rabbi. Perhaps a smaller role for your child is possible. You don't have to have the service to become a Bar Mitzvah. It happens just by turning 13!

OP did talk to rabbi, they are dropping the haftarah from what her kid has to learn.

[Anonymous]

Judaism 101 classes and adult b'nei mitzvah classes are filled with Jewish adults who didn't learn "enough" about Judaism and feel "self-conscious" about their lack of Jewish knowledge. I work in Jewish adult education and so many of them say they wish they had gone through with their bar mitzvah (if they didn't) or paid more attention in religious school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Judaism 101 classes and adult b'nei mitzvah classes are filled with Jewish adults who didn't learn "enough" about Judaism and feel "self-conscious" about their lack of Jewish knowledge. I work in Jewish adult education and so many of them say they wish they had gone through with their bar mitzvah (if they didn't) or paid more attention in religious school.

They're doing it at the time that's right for them, when they're open to everything, which is probably a good outcome. It's good they weren't pushed away because they weren't ready. You talk to the adults who want to be there, though, and it's so hard to know which OP's son will be.