If you are married to a big law partner, how involved are they in your family's home life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something has to give. Women who want the big house, designer bags, frequent, fancy vacations…are not going to get a husband with a teacher’s schedule.

You can’t have it all, and you chose money over a well balanced life/partnership.

A lot of times it’s men who want those things, and choose money and prestige over a well balanced life/partnership. Their wives are more or less forced to accept it or divorce.

This.

It what was the game plan/discussion when you got married?

Are you passive in the relationship?

[Anonymous]

Just say this is not what you signed up for, and head to a mediator for options.

Really, there are other law jobs. Every generation does not have to lament this.

Take charge a little.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is enlightening and devastating in equal measure. Thank you for all these honests posts. I feel like I'm truly reading a chapter in my future life in a "choose your own adventure" kind of way.

My DH is a new-ish Big Law partner in a field he finds rewarding and at a firm he feels is a good fit though he has sacrificed compensation by choosing to be there. There are weeks that are just insane where I swear he's working 20 out of 24 hours. Or months where it's all travel all the time. Honestly, the former is actually harder since as other PPs mentioned, he tends to parachute in to family affairs and gives his unwanted two cents. When he's away, things run like clockwork.

But at least 75 percent of the year is what I call a super schedule. He wakes up an hour early to squeeze in emails, helps a little with morning kid stuff then it's incommunicado for the next 11 hours until we see him home around 8pm. Then quick dinner while I do bedtime routine and then he reads stories, plays a quick game, etc. Then more work until 11pm or so. Some weeks he can actually chill. Weekends are at minimum 2 hours of emails and vacations always include a little work.

That said, he does find time to throw in the odd load of laundry, clean dishes/sweep a couple times a week, take out trash, and yes, makes the coffee regularly. Everything else, and I mean everything, falls on me. Social schedules, cooking, shopping, school stuff, travel, medical, financial, house, yard, clothing, even his, is on my plate. Not to mention all the other things women typically take on to raise good kids in a warm environment.

I'm at WAHM but work in a creative space so it's easy to just push my projects to the side. I'm getting better about being ok with a little more mess and chaos in order to carve out more work time. But I don't love outsourcing things so just have my house cleaned once a month.

I will add that my husband and I have been together for decades so we have a rock solid relationship. If we didn't, I'm not sure we could have weathered some of the storms that him being physically and emotionally unavailable has brought on. I'll also add that lawyers, especially litigators, are trained to duel intellectually and thrive on it which means they don't often turn it off at home. I keep reminding him that it's better to be married then to be right all the time.

Anyway, so many nuggets of wisdom on this thread.i do consider myself extremely privileged to live the Lifestyle his career affords (private schools, expensive vacations, buying what we want when we want it) but like any high-powered job, it has a dark side. I will also add that as we get older, I truly do see the toll this job is taking on his health. So much so, I'm considering putting other career ambitions aside and starting a business to help get him into an early retirement track.

I’m the early retired Biglaw poster. Thanks for sharing this. It’s honest and enlightening and in many ways I can relate.

The one thing that we did when I was working was avoid lifestyle creep at all costs. Part of this was strategic, but mostly it was organic. My wife was (is) Midwest raised with parents who had lots of money but didn’t spend it or show it off. My wife is the same way. No private schools for our kids; no expensive colleges when UVA will do; no keeping up with the Joneses in terms of cars and houses etc. We only splurged on vacations. That’s it.

Because of that, and because we married and had kids early, we were well positioned to walk away from work very early with a nice nest egg and without worrying that our lifestyle would suffer without all of that money - we never lived a moneyed lifestyle in the first place, so there was no adjustments required.

Previous posters who (or whose spouses) have remained in Biglaw, especially the one who accused me of mansplaining, have rightfully noted that I “hated” my job. In fact, I did. I never adjusted to the arrogance, the elitism, the way lawyers looked down on staff - or anybody without their education or income stream, honestly - the uptightedness, the boring social events, the private schooling for the kids, the often tedious work, clients who you’d have nothing to do with were it high school but who you have to suck up to, etc etc etc. The whole thing was just so awful and contrived and sterile and fake.

It’s funny. We no longer have to worry about making more and more money to do and buy more and more things to feel good about ourselves and feel like we’re better parents. Instead, to reach a goal (say, another trip abroad) we just cut back on eating out for a little while. It’s so liberating being out of the Biglaw rat race. I really don’t think that most of the folks who are still caught up in it realize just how terrible it is.

PP, based on your experience, what do you think motivates the Biglaw partners to live this life?

I mean...it can't just be the money, right? Because you'd have to be crazy to think that the paltry sum of 1 mil a year is enough to make up for having zero life.

I’m the PP.

First, it’s not $1 million for many Biglaw partners - it’s way more than that. When I walked away nearly a decade ago I was making just shy of $1 million myself, and I was one of the lower paid partners. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that the partners I used to work with are now pulling in up to $3 million or more. Of course, I don’t know that for sure because I have nothing to do with any of them.

That amount of money is not easy for anyone to walk away from. It defines a person. Makes them feel special. Important. Better than other people. Whatever you want to call it. I know it did for me at least, for a long while.

They’d also vehemently disagree (as you’ve seen some of them and their spouses here) that they have “zero” life. They will talk up their houses, their vacations, their private schools, their social lives with their clients and colleagues etc, and insist that it’s all pretty damned good and that they really can put work completely aside sometimes and really enjoy themselves. But I rarely saw that happen for real in my firm, and I’m pretty confident that we are not unique. You don’t make partner at Biglaw without being driven and focused AF, and you can’t keep at it without continuing to be that way. You can pretend around others (including your spouse) that you’re turning it off, of course. But I know better. It’s always on the back of your mind.

One anecdote. Several months ago one of my former partners (with one of the most “laid back” reputations in my old firm) reached out to me out of the blue and asked to meet over a drink to talk about the financial adjustments involved in retiring early. We met. They had their spouse with them. They asked how high end we had been traveling (pre-Covid) since retiring. When I responded that we haven’t been traveling particularly high end but it was fine because high end was never our style even when I was working, the response I got was, and this is a quote: “Ugh. That would be tough for us. We love our Four Seasons.”

That partner ain’t leaving anytime soon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is enlightening and devastating in equal measure. Thank you for all these honests posts. I feel like I'm truly reading a chapter in my future life in a "choose your own adventure" kind of way.

My DH is a new-ish Big Law partner in a field he finds rewarding and at a firm he feels is a good fit though he has sacrificed compensation by choosing to be there. There are weeks that are just insane where I swear he's working 20 out of 24 hours. Or months where it's all travel all the time. Honestly, the former is actually harder since as other PPs mentioned, he tends to parachute in to family affairs and gives his unwanted two cents. When he's away, things run like clockwork.

But at least 75 percent of the year is what I call a super schedule. He wakes up an hour early to squeeze in emails, helps a little with morning kid stuff then it's incommunicado for the next 11 hours until we see him home around 8pm. Then quick dinner while I do bedtime routine and then he reads stories, plays a quick game, etc. Then more work until 11pm or so. Some weeks he can actually chill. Weekends are at minimum 2 hours of emails and vacations always include a little work.

That said, he does find time to throw in the odd load of laundry, clean dishes/sweep a couple times a week, take out trash, and yes, makes the coffee regularly. Everything else, and I mean everything, falls on me. Social schedules, cooking, shopping, school stuff, travel, medical, financial, house, yard, clothing, even his, is on my plate. Not to mention all the other things women typically take on to raise good kids in a warm environment.

I'm at WAHM but work in a creative space so it's easy to just push my projects to the side. I'm getting better about being ok with a little more mess and chaos in order to carve out more work time. But I don't love outsourcing things so just have my house cleaned once a month.

I will add that my husband and I have been together for decades so we have a rock solid relationship. If we didn't, I'm not sure we could have weathered some of the storms that him being physically and emotionally unavailable has brought on. I'll also add that lawyers, especially litigators, are trained to duel intellectually and thrive on it which means they don't often turn it off at home. I keep reminding him that it's better to be married then to be right all the time.

Anyway, so many nuggets of wisdom on this thread.i do consider myself extremely privileged to live the Lifestyle his career affords (private schools, expensive vacations, buying what we want when we want it) but like any high-powered job, it has a dark side. I will also add that as we get older, I truly do see the toll this job is taking on his health. So much so, I'm considering putting other career ambitions aside and starting a business to help get him into an early retirement track.

I’m the early retired Biglaw poster. Thanks for sharing this. It’s honest and enlightening and in many ways I can relate.

The one thing that we did when I was working was avoid lifestyle creep at all costs. Part of this was strategic, but mostly it was organic. My wife was (is) Midwest raised with parents who had lots of money but didn’t spend it or show it off. My wife is the same way. No private schools for our kids; no expensive colleges when UVA will do; no keeping up with the Joneses in terms of cars and houses etc. We only splurged on vacations. That’s it.

Because of that, and because we married and had kids early, we were well positioned to walk away from work very early with a nice nest egg and without worrying that our lifestyle would suffer without all of that money - we never lived a moneyed lifestyle in the first place, so there was no adjustments required.

Previous posters who (or whose spouses) have remained in Biglaw, especially the one who accused me of mansplaining, have rightfully noted that I “hated” my job. In fact, I did. I never adjusted to the arrogance, the elitism, the way lawyers looked down on staff - or anybody without their education or income stream, honestly - the uptightedness, the boring social events, the private schooling for the kids, the often tedious work, clients who you’d have nothing to do with were it high school but who you have to suck up to, etc etc etc. The whole thing was just so awful and contrived and sterile and fake.

It’s funny. We no longer have to worry about making more and more money to do and buy more and more things to feel good about ourselves and feel like we’re better parents. Instead, to reach a goal (say, another trip abroad) we just cut back on eating out for a little while. It’s so liberating being out of the Biglaw rat race. I really don’t think that most of the folks who are still caught up in it realize just how terrible it is.

PP, based on your experience, what do you think motivates the Biglaw partners to live this life?

I mean...it can't just be the money, right? Because you'd have to be crazy to think that the paltry sum of 1 mil a year is enough to make up for having zero life.

I’m the PP.

First, it’s not $1 million for many Biglaw partners - it’s way more than that. When I walked away nearly a decade ago I was making just shy of $1 million myself, and I was one of the lower paid partners. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that the partners I used to work with are now pulling in up to $3 million or more. Of course, I don’t know that for sure because I have nothing to do with any of them.

That amount of money is not easy for anyone to walk away from. It defines a person. Makes them feel special. Important. Better than other people. Whatever you want to call it. I know it did for me at least, for a long while.

They’d also vehemently disagree (as you’ve seen some of them and their spouses here) that they have “zero” life. They will talk up their houses, their vacations, their private schools, their social lives with their clients and colleagues etc, and insist that it’s all pretty damned good and that they really can put work completely aside sometimes and really enjoy themselves. But I rarely saw that happen for real in my firm, and I’m pretty confident that we are not unique. You don’t make partner at Biglaw without being driven and focused AF, and you can’t keep at it without continuing to be that way. You can pretend around others (including your spouse) that you’re turning it off, of course. But I know better. It’s always on the back of your mind.

One anecdote. Several months ago one of my former partners (with one of the most “laid back” reputations in my old firm) reached out to me out of the blue and asked to meet over a drink to talk about the financial adjustments involved in retiring early. We met. They had their spouse with them. They asked how high end we had been traveling (pre-Covid) since retiring. When I responded that we haven’t been traveling particularly high end but it was fine because high end was never our style even when I was working, the response I got was, and this is a quote: “Ugh. That would be tough for us. We love our Four Seasons.”

That partner ain’t leaving anytime soon.

Good grief that anecdote is so cringey!

And I’m glad you shared it, it will be a good reminder to stick with the residence inns.

[Anonymous]

DCUM always comes to the same conclusion - that partners in top law firms are always miserable - but it just isn't true.

There are definitely top firms where there are plenty of balanced (though certainly hard working) partners. They are exceptionally well paid because they are exceptional: often that means brilliant AS WELL AS socially competent (relationship building is a big part of the job). I think it would be extremely difficult to have that career and do 50% of the labor at home / with a family, but 30%? Sure. Spouse either SAH and takes on the remaining 70% or (more likely) has a low-key career that permits taking on more of the load.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DCUM always comes to the same conclusion - that partners in top law firms are always miserable - but it just isn't true.

There are definitely top firms where there are plenty of balanced (though certainly hard working) partners. They are exceptionally well paid because they are exceptional: often that means brilliant AS WELL AS socially competent (relationship building is a big part of the job). I think it would be extremely difficult to have that career and do 50% of the labor at home / with a family, but 30%? Sure. Spouse either SAH and takes on the remaining 70% or (more likely) has a low-key career that permits taking on more of the load.

Are you a Biglaw partner? How much of the load do you pull? Serious questions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My dad is a retired big law partner. The answer to how involved he was in the day to day when I was growing up was “not very.” He worked very hard and my mom handled everything plus her own more flexible but still demanding career. It definitely strained their marriage. But I will say that the time my dad was home was a lot of quality time and we are all very close.

I will agree with all of this. My dad definitely made time for us, and I love him very much. But I also remember that he would be out of town for a week, and we would have no idea he has even been gone until he came home with presents one day. Or my mom would be rounding in the ICU on a Saturday morning, and dad would forget to feed us and take us out to get the oil changed on the cars. He just didn’t know what to do day to day with kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dad is a retired big law partner. The answer to how involved he was in the day to day when I was growing up was “not very.” He worked very hard and my mom handled everything plus her own more flexible but still demanding career. It definitely strained their marriage. But I will say that the time my dad was home was a lot of quality time and we are all very close.

I will agree with all of this. My dad definitely made time for us, and I love him very much. But I also remember that he would be out of town for a week, and we would have no idea he has even been gone until he came home with presents one day. Or my mom would be rounding in the ICU on a Saturday morning, and dad would forget to feed us and take us out to get the oil changed on the cars. He just didn’t know what to do day to day with kids.

I feel for your mom. My dad was rounding in the ICU and never present but my mom didn’t work. I can’t imagine being a physician and then pulling the weight of a biglaw spouse at home. Hell, I can barely do it and I’m in the most mommy-tracked position ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dad is a retired big law partner. The answer to how involved he was in the day to day when I was growing up was “not very.” He worked very hard and my mom handled everything plus her own more flexible but still demanding career. It definitely strained their marriage. But I will say that the time my dad was home was a lot of quality time and we are all very close.

I will agree with all of this. My dad definitely made time for us, and I love him very much. But I also remember that he would be out of town for a week, and we would have no idea he has even been gone until he came home with presents one day. Or my mom would be rounding in the ICU on a Saturday morning, and dad would forget to feed us and take us out to get the oil changed on the cars. He just didn’t know what to do day to day with kids.

I feel for your mom. My dad was rounding in the ICU and never present but my mom didn’t work. I can’t imagine being a physician and then pulling the weight of a biglaw spouse at home. Hell, I can barely do it and I’m in the most mommy-tracked position ever.

Oh wow. She is a pharmacist, not a physician, and she only worked about 15 hours a week. She just had to take weekend and holiday rounds sometimes.
I don’t think that it’s the job she would have chosen for herself, and she started working FT when we got older.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I manage 75% of our home life (one kid). He handles bedtime. He manages most of our finances, home repairs, lawn, dishes, trash and that's about it. Everything else is on me. We have a housekeeper, nanny and regular babysitters so that I get some support. I knew what I was getting myself into when we got married and knew that I would be the default parent.

LOL. "Some" support? You don't do squat!

God, it's never enough for you people. Not enough work, too much work, he can't be a good partner if he's around too much, he can't be a good dad if he's working too much, she's a bad mom if she hires out everything, she's dumb because why wouldn't you hire someone to help with all this money? Etc., etc. This thread is hilarious.

You’re right but please understand the “LOL” pp is just jealous of the help.

LOL no jealousy at all just amusement at how clueless this poster is. She manages 75 percent of the home life by paying others to do it. Of course, she couldn’t do that if she wasn’t married to a partner making big money. So how exactly is she “managing” any of that more than him? Because it’s her thumb and not his that pushes the Venmo button?

I’m an early retired Biglaw partner sitting by the pool at our second home. We have people who do everything here - the lawn, the pool, the grocery deliveries, you name it. All I do is pay them. So I guess I handle 100 percent of the things that need to be done here, huh? Amazing how I manage to handle all of that while sitting by the pool all day long. Try telling my spouse that I’m soooo busy and see their reaction ha ha.

But…but…a PP said it takes up all of that that person’s time because “the babysitter/cleaner MAY HAVE QUESTIONS.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I manage 75% of our home life (one kid). He handles bedtime. He manages most of our finances, home repairs, lawn, dishes, trash and that's about it. Everything else is on me. We have a housekeeper, nanny and regular babysitters so that I get some support. I knew what I was getting myself into when we got married and knew that I would be the default parent.

LOL. "Some" support? You don't do squat!

God, it's never enough for you people. Not enough work, too much work, he can't be a good partner if he's around too much, he can't be a good dad if he's working too much, she's a bad mom if she hires out everything, she's dumb because why wouldn't you hire someone to help with all this money? Etc., etc. This thread is hilarious.

But to be fair, that PP didn't do squat!

- dp

I saw the humor in it too! 75% after the nanny, housekeeper, and regular babysitters leave what? About 15 minutes a day to tend to household/childraising duties. Tedious for realz, guyz!

This is the 75% poster. Thanks for telling me I don't do squat. We have a nanny so I can work full time, but you'll probably tell me my DH is a terrible big law partner for letting his wife work. The housekeeper is so I don't have to spend 4 hours cleaning on the weekend and can rest after working a full week. The babysitter is so I don't have to take a baby with me while I run errands.

Pp, if I were you I’d drop this and move on. You are not helping your case. Sorry for your tough life.

Yea I agree you’re just digging your hole deeper and deeper. Let’s tie this all together: you don’t watch the kids, you don’t clean the house, but you do run errands. Oh, while somebody else watches the baby, that is.

Got it. That 75 percent must be exhausting!

She’s going to be shocked when she learns that most parents do the errands WITH the baby in tow. Insanity!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I manage 75% of our home life (one kid). He handles bedtime. He manages most of our finances, home repairs, lawn, dishes, trash and that's about it. Everything else is on me. We have a housekeeper, nanny and regular babysitters so that I get some support. I knew what I was getting myself into when we got married and knew that I would be the default parent.

LOL. "Some" support? You don't do squat!

God, it's never enough for you people. Not enough work, too much work, he can't be a good partner if he's around too much, he can't be a good dad if he's working too much, she's a bad mom if she hires out everything, she's dumb because why wouldn't you hire someone to help with all this money? Etc., etc. This thread is hilarious.

You’re right but please understand the “LOL” pp is just jealous of the help.

LOL no jealousy at all just amusement at how clueless this poster is. She manages 75 percent of the home life by paying others to do it. Of course, she couldn’t do that if she wasn’t married to a partner making big money. So how exactly is she “managing” any of that more than him? Because it’s her thumb and not his that pushes the Venmo button?

I’m an early retired Biglaw partner sitting by the pool at our second home. We have people who do everything here - the lawn, the pool, the grocery deliveries, you name it. All I do is pay them. So I guess I handle 100 percent of the things that need to be done here, huh? Amazing how I manage to handle all of that while sitting by the pool all day long. Try telling my spouse that I’m soooo busy and see their reaction ha ha.

Sounds like you weren’t a very involved parent. Taking care of an infant 120 hours a week is not exactly like sitting by the pool all day.

But Ms 75 percent isn’t taking care of an infant. She has a nanny AND a babysitter.

Right. She takes care of the infant 120 hours a week, not 168.

It’s hilarious that you keep repeating this “120 hours” like she’s deserving of a medal. So freaking what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New poster, long time reader.. I'm not even married to a partner yet but this has been one of the most interesting threads I've read in awhile since I run in these circles. I do wonder if this is specific to big law lawyers or if it extends to other demanding jobs? Surgeon comes to mind. But I do agree that big law partnership takes a toll. Cancer, divorce and death rates are shockingly high in the firm.

I am a surgeon’s wife. I have been reading this thread with interest as well. Some of it’s the same and some is different.

The hours and lack of availability are similar, but there is also this sort of idea that he is saving lives, and that any demands you put on him to take care of you and be present with your family are taking away from people who are sick or dying. Once, someone wrote him a letter thanking him for taking care of his dad on Christmas, ending it with telling our kids that their dad being willing to miss one Christmas with his family meant that their dad could enjoy many more Christmases with their family. But the thing is, it isn’t one Christmas. It’s every Christmas. And it’s always someone’s wife or dad or daughter or mother.

Anyway, it’s not easy. Rates of suicide among doctors wives are high.

I'm the PP who posted the question and wanted to say thank you for responding to this. This must be a lot to bear as a spouse. It's all the sacrifice and none of the glory/gratitude. Having just had a parent undergo emergency heart surgery, I know my dad robbed his surgeon's wife and kids of a family weekend. But I am forever grateful and always think about ways to pay it forward. Cold comfort again, I know but I did want to let you know your sacrifice means everything. I hope the universe repays you in big and small ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something has to give. Women who want the big house, designer bags, frequent, fancy vacations…are not going to get a husband with a teacher’s schedule.

You can’t have it all, and you chose money over a well balanced life/partnership.

A lot of times it’s men who want those things, and choose money and prestige over a well balanced life/partnership. Their wives are more or less forced to accept it or divorce.

This.

+2. Yep. It’s men’s ambition that drives this behavior.

Ego and image facade drives him

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I manage 75% of our home life (one kid). He handles bedtime. He manages most of our finances, home repairs, lawn, dishes, trash and that's about it. Everything else is on me. We have a housekeeper, nanny and regular babysitters so that I get some support. I knew what I was getting myself into when we got married and knew that I would be the default parent.

LOL. "Some" support? You don't do squat!

God, it's never enough for you people. Not enough work, too much work, he can't be a good partner if he's around too much, he can't be a good dad if he's working too much, she's a bad mom if she hires out everything, she's dumb because why wouldn't you hire someone to help with all this money? Etc., etc. This thread is hilarious.

You’re right but please understand the “LOL” pp is just jealous of the help.

LOL no jealousy at all just amusement at how clueless this poster is. She manages 75 percent of the home life by paying others to do it. Of course, she couldn’t do that if she wasn’t married to a partner making big money. So how exactly is she “managing” any of that more than him? Because it’s her thumb and not his that pushes the Venmo button?

I’m an early retired Biglaw partner sitting by the pool at our second home. We have people who do everything here - the lawn, the pool, the grocery deliveries, you name it. All I do is pay them. So I guess I handle 100 percent of the things that need to be done here, huh? Amazing how I manage to handle all of that while sitting by the pool all day long. Try telling my spouse that I’m soooo busy and see their reaction ha ha.

Sounds like you weren’t a very involved parent. Taking care of an infant 120 hours a week is not exactly like sitting by the pool all day.

But Ms 75 percent isn’t taking care of an infant. She has a nanny AND a babysitter.

Right. She takes care of the infant 120 hours a week, not 168.

It’s hilarious that you keep repeating this “120 hours” like she’s deserving of a medal. So freaking what?

I don’t know. How many hours a week does a person need to spend on childcare for you to feel like they are doing 75%?