If you are married to a big law partner, how involved are they in your family's home life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am a PP who is a spouse of a partner, and it is laughable to me that an anonymous stranger could actually think they “know” that I am in denial about my partners well being. Or the well being of all our friends also in big law. There are problems in how some law firms address mental health and work life balance, and I’m proud that my partner has been a leader in addressing those issues head on in his firm - and he leads by example. He works hard, but his family and well-being (including sleep!) come first.

+1 The guy posting as retired partner apparently believes his experience is the only one, and if people claim different experiences or emotions it’s only because they are not self-aware.

The guy posting as retired partner probably knows more about how miserable his partners are/were than many of their spouses because he likely spent more time with them.

I believe him a lot more than I believe the self-interested spouse PP.

I am him, and thank you. It’s interesting; my wife had no problem whatsoever with my walking away and giving up all of that money because she, too, knew it was an unnecessarily grueling and unhealthy existence in so many ways for both of us. But, again, like me she managed not to get too caught up in the financial trappings either. I don’t think the majority of Biglaw partners wives are like her in that way. This seems to be being confirmed in this thread.

Since walk away from working life almost a decade ago, we have been living extremely comfortably on around $225k a year, all generated from retirement accounts and other investments that I made when working (spouse was a SAHM mom). Having just passed 60, we are still years away from collecting social security., but when that happens we will get a boost of about another $55k. That will be nice, sure, but not necessary: We haven’t had to make any lifestyle changes since retiring, because we never lived that large before. You just don’t need any more money than that, especially once the kids are grown, and it can really ruin to make so much money and then decide that you can’t live well without it.



We leave next week for a two-week trip abroad.

How did you feel about your wife not needing the money when you were working? I think this describes us fairly well, but DH has told me before that he’s frustrated that I don’t seem to appreciate the biggest thing that he brings to the table, and he sometimes wishes he married someone who wanted this money, knew what to do with it, and needed/appreciated him more.

The retired partner here again. I think your husband is projecting. He doesn’t want to give it up, so he’s putting the blame on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am a PP who is a spouse of a partner, and it is laughable to me that an anonymous stranger could actually think they “know” that I am in denial about my partners well being. Or the well being of all our friends also in big law. There are problems in how some law firms address mental health and work life balance, and I’m proud that my partner has been a leader in addressing those issues head on in his firm - and he leads by example. He works hard, but his family and well-being (including sleep!) come first.

+1 The guy posting as retired partner apparently believes his experience is the only one, and if people claim different experiences or emotions it’s only because they are not self-aware.

The guy posting as retired partner probably knows more about how miserable his partners are/were than many of their spouses because he likely spent more time with them.

I believe him a lot more than I believe the self-interested spouse PP.

I am him, and thank you. It’s interesting; my wife had no problem whatsoever with my walking away and giving up all of that money because she, too, knew it was an unnecessarily grueling and unhealthy existence in so many ways for both of us. But, again, like me she managed not to get too caught up in the financial trappings either. I don’t think the majority of Biglaw partners wives are like her in that way. This seems to be being confirmed in this thread.

Since walk away from working life almost a decade ago, we have been living extremely comfortably on around $225k a year, all generated from retirement accounts and other investments that I made when working (spouse was a SAHM mom). Having just passed 60, we are still years away from collecting social security., but when that happens we will get a boost of about another $55k. That will be nice, sure, but not necessary: We haven’t had to make any lifestyle changes since retiring, because we never lived that large before. You just don’t need any more money than that, especially once the kids are grown, and it can really ruin to make so much money and then decide that you can’t live well without it.



We leave next week for a two-week trip abroad.

follow-up question: aren't most partners from wealthy/connected backgrounds? Like plenty of associates from middle class backgrounds even if they went to a T10 school, but the people who actually make partner, they come from the moneyed classes, right?

Right.

I'd say 25 percent self made. 50 percent from well-connected lawyer families. 25 percent from wealthy but not filthy rich families. The very wealthy hire lawyers, they rarely become one.

Again, early retired partner here. I find it hard to believe that the poster suggesting that the majority of Biglaw partners came from wealthy and privileged backgrounds actually works in Biglaw, because it is absolutely not true. They certainly are privileged in the sense that they are mostly male and mostly white, but most of my former partners at my very “white shoe” firm came from relatively modest backgrounds but were super high achievers - top colleges and law schools, law review, clerkships, etc. In other words, a history of working their asses off. At the associate level, there were many more lawyers from more wealthy backgrounds; many left after a year or three after getting their tickets punched and moved on the government or even teaching jobs. It was actually a common complaint by partners that the associates being hired were soft and uncommitted.

[Anonymous]

There’s just so much self-delusion required to sustain the Big Law partner life, both on the part of the partner and their spouses. There are perhaps a few narrow specialty practice areas where this isn’t true, but those are unusual.

I remember asking one Big Law partner what his daughter’s middle name was, just making conversation one day. This was a guy who prided himself on being a good dad. He had no idea what his kid’s middle name was. Literally no idea (“oh, my wife did all the name paperwork”) and seemed puzzled that I thought he might know his own kid’s name.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There’s just so much self-delusion required to sustain the Big Law partner life, both on the part of the partner and their spouses. There are perhaps a few narrow specialty practice areas where this isn’t true, but those are unusual.

I remember asking one Big Law partner what his daughter’s middle name was, just making conversation one day. This was a guy who prided himself on being a good dad. He had no idea what his kid’s middle name was. Literally no idea (“oh, my wife did all the name paperwork”) and seemed puzzled that I thought he might know his own kid’s name.

I can kind of get behind your first paragraph, but the second is just not common at all. The career-heavy spouses aren't as involved in kids but goodness, they know their childrens' middle names. My husband also knows the names of their teachers (in elementary, middle is trickier), the names of their friends, and the names of their coaches. I suspect the dad big law partners I now are like that too, but at a minimum they know basic things about their kids, like their food preferences and how school is going, and of course the partners I know who are moms know absolutely everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am a PP who is a spouse of a partner, and it is laughable to me that an anonymous stranger could actually think they “know” that I am in denial about my partners well being. Or the well being of all our friends also in big law. There are problems in how some law firms address mental health and work life balance, and I’m proud that my partner has been a leader in addressing those issues head on in his firm - and he leads by example. He works hard, but his family and well-being (including sleep!) come first.

+1 The guy posting as retired partner apparently believes his experience is the only one, and if people claim different experiences or emotions it’s only because they are not self-aware.

The guy posting as retired partner probably knows more about how miserable his partners are/were than many of their spouses because he likely spent more time with them.

I believe him a lot more than I believe the self-interested spouse PP.

I am him, and thank you. It’s interesting; my wife had no problem whatsoever with my walking away and giving up all of that money because she, too, knew it was an unnecessarily grueling and unhealthy existence in so many ways for both of us. But, again, like me she managed not to get too caught up in the financial trappings either. I don’t think the majority of Biglaw partners wives are like her in that way. This seems to be being confirmed in this thread.

A lot of them develop relationships with clients by working with them while they were associates, not through social circles. I know some heads of practice who just cold call clients too. There is definitely a sales element involved.

Since walk away from working life almost a decade ago, we have been living extremely comfortably on around $225k a year, all generated from retirement accounts and other investments that I made when working (spouse was a SAHM mom). Having just passed 60, we are still years away from collecting social security., but when that happens we will get a boost of about another $55k. That will be nice, sure, but not necessary: We haven’t had to make any lifestyle changes since retiring, because we never lived that large before. You just don’t need any more money than that, especially once the kids are grown, and it can really ruin to make so much money and then decide that you can’t live well without it.



We leave next week for a two-week trip abroad.

follow-up question: aren't most partners from wealthy/connected backgrounds? Like plenty of associates from middle class backgrounds even if they went to a T10 school, but the people who actually make partner, they come from the moneyed classes, right?

Right.

I'd say 25 percent self made. 50 percent from well-connected lawyer families. 25 percent from wealthy but not filthy rich families. The very wealthy hire lawyers, they rarely become one.

50 percent aren't from well connected lawyer families. That's just dumb. Biglaw is about as non-nepotistic as you can get - you need a very competitive law school pedigree and gpa to get in. It's been 20 years since i heard of someone getting into big law because of their connections. Once you're in, partnership is certainly helped by who you know. But knowing other lawyers isn't that helpful. You need to know rich people in business. Not other lawyers. I'd say the biggest rainmakers in my firm went to tight private prep schools (often religious) and use those networks a lot, plus college a lot, a little bit of law school, and then also a lot of rich neighbors, church/synagogue members, golf club, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am a PP who is a spouse of a partner, and it is laughable to me that an anonymous stranger could actually think they “know” that I am in denial about my partners well being. Or the well being of all our friends also in big law. There are problems in how some law firms address mental health and work life balance, and I’m proud that my partner has been a leader in addressing those issues head on in his firm - and he leads by example. He works hard, but his family and well-being (including sleep!) come first.

+1 The guy posting as retired partner apparently believes his experience is the only one, and if people claim different experiences or emotions it’s only because they are not self-aware.

The guy posting as retired partner probably knows more about how miserable his partners are/were than many of their spouses because he likely spent more time with them.

I believe him a lot more than I believe the self-interested spouse PP.

I am him, and thank you. It’s interesting; my wife had no problem whatsoever with my walking away and giving up all of that money because she, too, knew it was an unnecessarily grueling and unhealthy existence in so many ways for both of us. But, again, like me she managed not to get too caught up in the financial trappings either. I don’t think the majority of Biglaw partners wives are like her in that way. This seems to be being confirmed in this thread.

Since walk away from working life almost a decade ago, we have been living extremely comfortably on around $225k a year, all generated from retirement accounts and other investments that I made when working (spouse was a SAHM mom). Having just passed 60, we are still years away from collecting social security., but when that happens we will get a boost of about another $55k. That will be nice, sure, but not necessary: We haven’t had to make any lifestyle changes since retiring, because we never lived that large before. You just don’t need any more money than that, especially once the kids are grown, and it can really ruin to make so much money and then decide that you can’t live well without it.



We leave next week for a two-week trip abroad.

follow-up question: aren't most partners from wealthy/connected backgrounds? Like plenty of associates from middle class backgrounds even if they went to a T10 school, but the people who actually make partner, they come from the moneyed classes, right?

Right.

I'd say 25 percent self made. 50 percent from well-connected lawyer families. 25 percent from wealthy but not filthy rich families. The very wealthy hire lawyers, they rarely become one.

Again, early retired partner here. I find it hard to believe that the poster suggesting that the majority of Biglaw partners came from wealthy and privileged backgrounds actually works in Biglaw, because it is absolutely not true. They certainly are privileged in the sense that they are mostly male and mostly white, but most of my former partners at my very “white shoe” firm came from relatively modest backgrounds but were super high achievers - top colleges and law schools, law review, clerkships, etc. In other words, a history of working their asses off. At the associate level, there were many more lawyers from more wealthy backgrounds; many left after a year or three after getting their tickets punched and moved on the government or even teaching jobs. It was actually a common complaint by partners that the associates being hired were soft and uncommitted.

This is reflective of my experience too. Big Law has a lot of issues, but it is in some ways a more meritocratic environment than other environments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am a PP who is a spouse of a partner, and it is laughable to me that an anonymous stranger could actually think they “know” that I am in denial about my partners well being. Or the well being of all our friends also in big law. There are problems in how some law firms address mental health and work life balance, and I’m proud that my partner has been a leader in addressing those issues head on in his firm - and he leads by example. He works hard, but his family and well-being (including sleep!) come first.

+1 The guy posting as retired partner apparently believes his experience is the only one, and if people claim different experiences or emotions it’s only because they are not self-aware.

The guy posting as retired partner probably knows more about how miserable his partners are/were than many of their spouses because he likely spent more time with them.

I believe him a lot more than I believe the self-interested spouse PP.

I am him, and thank you. It’s interesting; my wife had no problem whatsoever with my walking away and giving up all of that money because she, too, knew it was an unnecessarily grueling and unhealthy existence in so many ways for both of us. But, again, like me she managed not to get too caught up in the financial trappings either. I don’t think the majority of Biglaw partners wives are like her in that way. This seems to be being confirmed in this thread.

Since walk away from working life almost a decade ago, we have been living extremely comfortably on around $225k a year, all generated from retirement accounts and other investments that I made when working (spouse was a SAHM mom). Having just passed 60, we are still years away from collecting social security., but when that happens we will get a boost of about another $55k. That will be nice, sure, but not necessary: We haven’t had to make any lifestyle changes since retiring, because we never lived that large before. You just don’t need any more money than that, especially once the kids are grown, and it can really ruin to make so much money and then decide that you can’t live well without it.



We leave next week for a two-week trip abroad.

How did you feel about your wife not needing the money when you were working? I think this describes us fairly well, but DH has told me before that he’s frustrated that I don’t seem to appreciate the biggest thing that he brings to the table, and he sometimes wishes he married someone who wanted this money, knew what to do with it, and needed/appreciated him more.

The retired partner here again. I think your husband is projecting. He doesn’t want to give it up, so he’s putting the blame on you.

I think that's probably it. He realizes that what he's doing isn't worth the money, but he thinks that if I were using the money differently to "improve" our lifestyle, then, somehow, it would actually be worth it.

[Anonymous]

Retired Biglaw partner again (I need to get a life ha ha). I went for a walk around town today and for the first time in literally years deliberately strolled past my old law firm. I didn’t see anyone, but a block or so away ran into a 76 year old former partner of mine eating lunch outside with a third year associate. We chatted for about 10 minutes. He asked in truly puzzled way “why don’t you come around at all?” I told him we had a second home in the country and I wasn’t in DC much, which is true but of course not the whole truth. I then said we were busy, just had another grandkid that we help with, etc., and he replied that their one kid has decided he doesn’t want kids so they don’t have family. Then he joked that he keeps working because his wife’s “to do” list for when he quits is too tedious and he’s avoiding it as long as he can.

He’s a nice guy as my ex partners go, and I feel bad for him. There was no way I was going to let that happen to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner again (I need to get a life ha ha). I went for a walk around town today and for the first time in literally years deliberately strolled past my old law firm. I didn’t see anyone, but a block or so away ran into a 76 year old former partner of mine eating lunch outside with a third year associate. We chatted for about 10 minutes. He asked in truly puzzled way “why don’t you come around at all?” I told him we had a second home in the country and I wasn’t in DC much, which is true but of course not the whole truth. I then said we were busy, just had another grandkid that we help with, etc., and he replied that their one kid has decided he doesn’t want kids so they don’t have family. Then he joked that he keeps working because his wife’s “to do” list for when he quits is too tedious and he’s avoiding it as long as he can.

He’s a nice guy as my ex partners go, and I feel bad for him. There was no way I was going to let that happen to me.

No please don’t get a life, I enjoy your posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread for me, a spouse of a partner track associate. If I had to glean the best advice from these past two pages it would be expect spousal absence and prepare to pay others to fill the gaps.

Exactly. Best way for marital harmony.

To an extent, yes. But if he’s a good dude and everyone’s priorities are as they should be, he will make it to the important things. Like yes, I manage the kids and the house at about 98%, including the maintenance and stuff like that, be it outsourcing or handling myself. He does finances and…works. A whole lot. That means I’m the one running crazy to deliver kids to tutoring and sports practices, which is a lot with three in different activities. But he’ll be there for the game on Saturday, even if he has to work before and/or after, and that’s what the kids notice for now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread for me, a spouse of a partner track associate. If I had to glean the best advice from these past two pages it would be expect spousal absence and prepare to pay others to fill the gaps.

Exactly. Best way for marital harmony.

To an extent, yes. But if he’s a good dude and everyone’s priorities are as they should be, he will make it to the important things. Like yes, I manage the kids and the house at about 98%, including the maintenance and stuff like that, be it outsourcing or handling myself. He does finances and…works. A whole lot. That means I’m the one running crazy to deliver kids to tutoring and sports practices, which is a lot with three in different activities. But he’ll be there for the game on Saturday, even if he has to work before and/or after, and that’s what the kids notice for now.

And you think he deserves a medal for that? Divorced fathers without primary custody do that much. Just saying.

[Anonymous]

I’m the PP who is a spouse of a partner and has been accused here of having rose tinted glasses.

A lot of the negatives described here are not uncommon in big law, I just don’t think they are in any way unique to it. I see it in acquaintances in different professions, and sometimes the solution is leaving the field (kudos to you, retired partner!) but it’s not always.

Someone mentioned that some lawyers just handle stress better than others, and that is absolutely true. I could NEVER manage being a big law partner the way my husband can. He just laughs off everything. He doesn’t take anything too seriously. We’ve always been ready for him to leave the profession if needed, from a financial perspective, and that day might come, but for now, he’s very happy. The lifestyle - highly intense and with odd hours (clients abroad) but with a lot of flexibility and independence - really fits him better than a less intense job would.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread for me, a spouse of a partner track associate. If I had to glean the best advice from these past two pages it would be expect spousal absence and prepare to pay others to fill the gaps.

Exactly. Best way for marital harmony.

To an extent, yes. But if he’s a good dude and everyone’s priorities are as they should be, he will make it to the important things. Like yes, I manage the kids and the house at about 98%, including the maintenance and stuff like that, be it outsourcing or handling myself. He does finances and…works. A whole lot. That means I’m the one running crazy to deliver kids to tutoring and sports practices, which is a lot with three in different activities. But he’ll be there for the game on Saturday, even if he has to work before and/or after, and that’s what the kids notice for now.

I never get the going to the game thing.
There were a lot of times when I was growing up that my dad only had a couple of hours a week to spend with me, and he would take me out to lunch or we would sit and talk in his office or go for a run together. I was a pretty good athlete (D1 college athlete), and I never would have traded a lunch with my dad to have him sit in the sidelines and watch me play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread for me, a spouse of a partner track associate. If I had to glean the best advice from these past two pages it would be expect spousal absence and prepare to pay others to fill the gaps.

Exactly. Best way for marital harmony.

To an extent, yes. But if he’s a good dude and everyone’s priorities are as they should be, he will make it to the important things. Like yes, I manage the kids and the house at about 98%, including the maintenance and stuff like that, be it outsourcing or handling myself. He does finances and…works. A whole lot. That means I’m the one running crazy to deliver kids to tutoring and sports practices, which is a lot with three in different activities. But he’ll be there for the game on Saturday, even if he has to work before and/or after, and that’s what the kids notice for now.

I never get the going to the game thing.
There were a lot of times when I was growing up that my dad only had a couple of hours a week to spend with me, and he would take me out to lunch or we would sit and talk in his office or go for a run together. I was a pretty good athlete (D1 college athlete), and I never would have traded a lunch with my dad to have him sit in the sidelines and watch me play.

Yea I agree that simply showing up at a game qualifies you as a decent father. Especially if you’re a Biglaw partner. It’s just more evidence of their competitive nature - the need to see their offspring compete and win.

[Anonymous]

Retired Biglaw partner again (I need to get a life ha ha). I went for a walk around town today and for the first time in literally years deliberately strolled past my old law firm. I didn’t see anyone, but a block or so away ran into a 76 year old former partner of mine eating lunch outside with a third year associate. We chatted for about 10 minutes. He asked in truly puzzled way “why don’t you come around at all?” I told him we had a second home in the country and I wasn’t in DC much, which is true but of course not the whole truth. I then said we were busy, just had another grandkid that we help with, etc., and he replied that their one kid has decided he doesn’t want kids so they don’t have family. Then he joked that he keeps working because his wife’s “to do” list for when he quits is too tedious and he’s avoiding it as long as he can.

He’s a nice guy as my ex partners go, and I feel bad for him. There was no way I was going to let that happen to me.

We get it. You have made the perfect decision and found the key to happiness and you know better than every BigLaw attorney. But if your idea of a fulfilling life is spending hours on DCUM to impart your wisdom then I wonder about all your choices.