If you are married to a big law partner, how involved are they in your family's home life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Retired BigLaw PP, everything you say about is mirrored in my experience.

It’s a uniquely toxic environment. Sure there may be the occasional specialty practice areas that aren’t, but those are rare. Most of it is exactly as you describe.

+10000

[Anonymous]

Something has to give. Women who want the big house, designer bags, frequent, fancy vacations…are not going to get a husband with a teacher’s schedule.

You can’t have it all, and you chose money over a well balanced life/partnership.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Something has to give. Women who want the big house, designer bags, frequent, fancy vacations…are not going to get a husband with a teacher’s schedule.

You can’t have it all, and you chose money over a well balanced life/partnership.

A lot of times it’s men who want those things, and choose money and prestige over a well balanced life/partnership. Their wives are more or less forced to accept it or divorce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something has to give. Women who want the big house, designer bags, frequent, fancy vacations…are not going to get a husband with a teacher’s schedule.

You can’t have it all, and you chose money over a well balanced life/partnership.

A lot of times it’s men who want those things, and choose money and prestige over a well balanced life/partnership. Their wives are more or less forced to accept it or divorce.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Something has to give. Women who want the big house, designer bags, frequent, fancy vacations…are not going to get a husband with a teacher’s schedule.

You can’t have it all, and you chose money over a well balanced life/partnership.

A lot of times it’s men who want those things, and choose money and prestige over a well balanced life/partnership. Their wives are more or less forced to accept it or divorce.

This.

+2. Yep. It’s men’s ambition that drives this behavior.

[Anonymous]

My dad is a retired big law partner. The answer to how involved he was in the day to day when I was growing up was “not very.” He worked very hard and my mom handled everything plus her own more flexible but still demanding career. It definitely strained their marriage. But I will say that the time my dad was home was a lot of quality time and we are all very close.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As an early retired Biglaw partner who I like to think was also a reasonably well involved parent, even when you’re not working you’re not really “all there” for your family. Work is always on your mind. You literally spend every waking moment when you’re not working thinking about work. It’s a miserable existence. I don’t think any of the spouses on here can truly appreciate that, even those who tell themselves that it’s all good and that their spouse is just fine. There’s a reason they’re paid so well. Trust me on that.

I know many BigLaw partners, including my spouse, who would not agree with this view. My DH has practiced with the same people for over 20 years and genuinely enjoys the people he works with and the work he does. He is friends with many of his clients. I was also in BigLaw for 15 years, so I know from my own experience that not all partners have the same situation, but your experience is also not universal.

It’s always the spouses that say that posters like the original PP isn’t telling the truth, but the actual partners would disagree if they are talking to another partner or senior lawyer.

I know literally no BigLaw partners who would not agree with what the original PP wrote. None. And I know a lot of BigLaw partners, many of whom have spouses who are very invested in not seeing how miserable their spouses actually are.

I'm a biglaw partner and i would disagree with what the original PP wrote. I turn off work all the time. The partners in my practice group would too. They all have lives outside the office, families, spouses, vacations etc. We are a V30 firm, not V10, so probably makes a difference. But i mean, there are like 200 firms on the V biglaw list, so it's not like V30 is low end.

We’re not really disagreeing. I too had a life outside of work when I was a partner. My point was that even when I wasn’t actually working the stress was still there. You might not realize it at the time, but it is. I mean, let’s be honest: you are rarely going to meet a former Biglaw lawyer who leaves the law and regrets the decision for any reason other than finances.

NP: I agree with this. While I was in it, I would have said the same as rose-glasses PP: I love the work, loved my colleagues, enjoyed my clients, most of my friends were people I worked with, met my spouse at work, and we had a lot a fun. But after you leave the firm life, maybe a year after you are out, it hits you. You look back and realize that your mental space was 100% take up by work. You were never "off" even when you were on vacation with your family or enjoying dinner together. You could convince yourself and others that you had turned it off, but only on that day when it really is off -- after you've bene gone for a long time-- that silence in your head hits you hard, and you realize that what you thought was being present with your family was really only being partly there. But you can't always see it while you're in it because it is so much a part of you and your normal way of being.

[Anonymous]

New poster, long time reader.. I'm not even married to a partner yet but this has been one of the most interesting threads I've read in awhile since I run in these circles. I do wonder if this is specific to big law lawyers or if it extends to other demanding jobs? Surgeon comes to mind. But I do agree that big law partnership takes a toll. Cancer, divorce and death rates are shockingly high in the firm.

[Anonymous]

After separation, I started dating non-lawyers.
Ladies you don’t know what you are missing.

These non lawyers are so affectionate. I can’t tell you how different every conversation is: Listening. Ok with other perspectives. Not controlling.

I feel bad for my ex now. But I also had no idea what I was missing!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After separation, I started dating non-lawyers.
Ladies you don’t know what you are missing.

These non lawyers are so affectionate. I can’t tell you how different every conversation is: Listening. Ok with other perspectives. Not controlling.

I feel bad for my ex now. But I also had no idea what I was missing!

This is an interesting comment and something I've thought about as a spouse of lawyer. Does being a lawyer cause these bad relationship habits. Or are you this way naturally and somehow that makes you preordained for the legal field?

Anyway, glad you found a better fit! In all fairness, not all lawyers are so terrible when it comes to communication in my own experience. And not all non-lawyers are perfect in every way But I do think the career (especially at the big law partner level) can bring out the worst in a spouse which can then bring out the worst in you. Anyway, glad you found a new normal!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is enlightening and devastating in equal measure. Thank you for all these honests posts. I feel like I'm truly reading a chapter in my future life in a "choose your own adventure" kind of way.

My DH is a new-ish Big Law partner in a field he finds rewarding and at a firm he feels is a good fit though he has sacrificed compensation by choosing to be there. There are weeks that are just insane where I swear he's working 20 out of 24 hours. Or months where it's all travel all the time. Honestly, the former is actually harder since as other PPs mentioned, he tends to parachute in to family affairs and gives his unwanted two cents. When he's away, things run like clockwork.

But at least 75 percent of the year is what I call a super schedule. He wakes up an hour early to squeeze in emails, helps a little with morning kid stuff then it's incommunicado for the next 11 hours until we see him home around 8pm. Then quick dinner while I do bedtime routine and then he reads stories, plays a quick game, etc. Then more work until 11pm or so. Some weeks he can actually chill. Weekends are at minimum 2 hours of emails and vacations always include a little work.

That said, he does find time to throw in the odd load of laundry, clean dishes/sweep a couple times a week, take out trash, and yes, makes the coffee regularly. Everything else, and I mean everything, falls on me. Social schedules, cooking, shopping, school stuff, travel, medical, financial, house, yard, clothing, even his, is on my plate. Not to mention all the other things women typically take on to raise good kids in a warm environment.

I'm at WAHM but work in a creative space so it's easy to just push my projects to the side. I'm getting better about being ok with a little more mess and chaos in order to carve out more work time. But I don't love outsourcing things so just have my house cleaned once a month.

I will add that my husband and I have been together for decades so we have a rock solid relationship. If we didn't, I'm not sure we could have weathered some of the storms that him being physically and emotionally unavailable has brought on. I'll also add that lawyers, especially litigators, are trained to duel intellectually and thrive on it which means they don't often turn it off at home. I keep reminding him that it's better to be married then to be right all the time.

Anyway, so many nuggets of wisdom on this thread.i do consider myself extremely privileged to live the Lifestyle his career affords (private schools, expensive vacations, buying what we want when we want it) but like any high-powered job, it has a dark side. I will also add that as we get older, I truly do see the toll this job is taking on his health. So much so, I'm considering putting other career ambitions aside and starting a business to help get him into an early retirement track.

I’m the early retired Biglaw poster. Thanks for sharing this. It’s honest and enlightening and in many ways I can relate.

The one thing that we did when I was working was avoid lifestyle creep at all costs. Part of this was strategic, but mostly it was organic. My wife was (is) Midwest raised with parents who had lots of money but didn’t spend it or show it off. My wife is the same way. No private schools for our kids; no expensive colleges when UVA will do; no keeping up with the Joneses in terms of cars and houses etc. We only splurged on vacations. That’s it.

Because of that, and because we married and had kids early, we were well positioned to walk away from work very early with a nice nest egg and without worrying that our lifestyle would suffer without all of that money - we never lived a moneyed lifestyle in the first place, so there was no adjustments required.

Previous posters who (or whose spouses) have remained in Biglaw, especially the one who accused me of mansplaining, have rightfully noted that I “hated” my job. In fact, I did. I never adjusted to the arrogance, the elitism, the way lawyers looked down on staff - or anybody without their education or income stream, honestly - the uptightedness, the boring social events, the private schooling for the kids, the often tedious work, clients who you’d have nothing to do with were it high school but who you have to suck up to, etc etc etc. The whole thing was just so awful and contrived and sterile and fake.

It’s funny. We no longer have to worry about making more and more money to do and buy more and more things to feel good about ourselves and feel like we’re better parents. Instead, to reach a goal (say, another trip abroad) we just cut back on eating out for a little while. It’s so liberating being out of the Biglaw rat race. I really don’t think that most of the folks who are still caught up in it realize just how terrible it is.

PP, based on your experience, what do you think motivates the Biglaw partners to live this life?

I mean...it can't just be the money, right? Because you'd have to be crazy to think that the paltry sum of 1 mil a year is enough to make up for having zero life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is enlightening and devastating in equal measure. Thank you for all these honests posts. I feel like I'm truly reading a chapter in my future life in a "choose your own adventure" kind of way.

My DH is a new-ish Big Law partner in a field he finds rewarding and at a firm he feels is a good fit though he has sacrificed compensation by choosing to be there. There are weeks that are just insane where I swear he's working 20 out of 24 hours. Or months where it's all travel all the time. Honestly, the former is actually harder since as other PPs mentioned, he tends to parachute in to family affairs and gives his unwanted two cents. When he's away, things run like clockwork.

But at least 75 percent of the year is what I call a super schedule. He wakes up an hour early to squeeze in emails, helps a little with morning kid stuff then it's incommunicado for the next 11 hours until we see him home around 8pm. Then quick dinner while I do bedtime routine and then he reads stories, plays a quick game, etc. Then more work until 11pm or so. Some weeks he can actually chill. Weekends are at minimum 2 hours of emails and vacations always include a little work.

That said, he does find time to throw in the odd load of laundry, clean dishes/sweep a couple times a week, take out trash, and yes, makes the coffee regularly. Everything else, and I mean everything, falls on me. Social schedules, cooking, shopping, school stuff, travel, medical, financial, house, yard, clothing, even his, is on my plate. Not to mention all the other things women typically take on to raise good kids in a warm environment.

I'm at WAHM but work in a creative space so it's easy to just push my projects to the side. I'm getting better about being ok with a little more mess and chaos in order to carve out more work time. But I don't love outsourcing things so just have my house cleaned once a month.

I will add that my husband and I have been together for decades so we have a rock solid relationship. If we didn't, I'm not sure we could have weathered some of the storms that him being physically and emotionally unavailable has brought on. I'll also add that lawyers, especially litigators, are trained to duel intellectually and thrive on it which means they don't often turn it off at home. I keep reminding him that it's better to be married then to be right all the time.

Anyway, so many nuggets of wisdom on this thread.i do consider myself extremely privileged to live the Lifestyle his career affords (private schools, expensive vacations, buying what we want when we want it) but like any high-powered job, it has a dark side. I will also add that as we get older, I truly do see the toll this job is taking on his health. So much so, I'm considering putting other career ambitions aside and starting a business to help get him into an early retirement track.

I’m the early retired Biglaw poster. Thanks for sharing this. It’s honest and enlightening and in many ways I can relate.

The one thing that we did when I was working was avoid lifestyle creep at all costs. Part of this was strategic, but mostly it was organic. My wife was (is) Midwest raised with parents who had lots of money but didn’t spend it or show it off. My wife is the same way. No private schools for our kids; no expensive colleges when UVA will do; no keeping up with the Joneses in terms of cars and houses etc. We only splurged on vacations. That’s it.

Because of that, and because we married and had kids early, we were well positioned to walk away from work very early with a nice nest egg and without worrying that our lifestyle would suffer without all of that money - we never lived a moneyed lifestyle in the first place, so there was no adjustments required.

Previous posters who (or whose spouses) have remained in Biglaw, especially the one who accused me of mansplaining, have rightfully noted that I “hated” my job. In fact, I did. I never adjusted to the arrogance, the elitism, the way lawyers looked down on staff - or anybody without their education or income stream, honestly - the uptightedness, the boring social events, the private schooling for the kids, the often tedious work, clients who you’d have nothing to do with were it high school but who you have to suck up to, etc etc etc. The whole thing was just so awful and contrived and sterile and fake.

It’s funny. We no longer have to worry about making more and more money to do and buy more and more things to feel good about ourselves and feel like we’re better parents. Instead, to reach a goal (say, another trip abroad) we just cut back on eating out for a little while. It’s so liberating being out of the Biglaw rat race. I really don’t think that most of the folks who are still caught up in it realize just how terrible it is.

PP, based on your experience, what do you think motivates the Biglaw partners to live this life?

I mean...it can't just be the money, right? Because you'd have to be crazy to think that the paltry sum of 1 mil a year is enough to make up for having zero life.

I am a PP above. I don't have zero life. I do lots. I never did the super schedule described above even as a junior lawyer and I have always been at the upper end of big law. Are there times I can't be there -- yes but is that every day or week or even month that happens ---- no. I have been at biglaw for more than 25 years. I know people like PP. I have never understood why they do it and why they set up their schedule like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New poster, long time reader.. I'm not even married to a partner yet but this has been one of the most interesting threads I've read in awhile since I run in these circles. I do wonder if this is specific to big law lawyers or if it extends to other demanding jobs? Surgeon comes to mind. But I do agree that big law partnership takes a toll. Cancer, divorce and death rates are shockingly high in the firm.

I am a surgeon’s wife. I have been reading this thread with interest as well. Some of it’s the same and some is different.

The hours and lack of availability are similar, but there is also this sort of idea that he is saving lives, and that any demands you put on him to take care of you and be present with your family are taking away from people who are sick or dying. Once, someone wrote him a letter thanking him for taking care of his dad on Christmas, ending it with telling our kids that their dad being willing to miss one Christmas with his family meant that their dad could enjoy many more Christmases with their family. But the thing is, it isn’t one Christmas. It’s every Christmas. And it’s always someone’s wife or dad or daughter or mother.

Anyway, it’s not easy. Rates of suicide among doctors wives are high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As an early retired Biglaw partner who I like to think was also a reasonably well involved parent, even when you’re not working you’re not really “all there” for your family. Work is always on your mind. You literally spend every waking moment when you’re not working thinking about work. It’s a miserable existence. I don’t think any of the spouses on here can truly appreciate that, even those who tell themselves that it’s all good and that their spouse is just fine. There’s a reason they’re paid so well. Trust me on that.

I know many BigLaw partners, including my spouse, who would not agree with this view. My DH has practiced with the same people for over 20 years and genuinely enjoys the people he works with and the work he does. He is friends with many of his clients. I was also in BigLaw for 15 years, so I know from my own experience that not all partners have the same situation, but your experience is also not universal.

It’s always the spouses that say that posters like the original PP isn’t telling the truth, but the actual partners would disagree if they are talking to another partner or senior lawyer.

I know literally no BigLaw partners who would not agree with what the original PP wrote. None. And I know a lot of BigLaw partners, many of whom have spouses who are very invested in not seeing how miserable their spouses actually are.

I'm a biglaw partner and i would disagree with what the original PP wrote. I turn off work all the time. The partners in my practice group would too. They all have lives outside the office, families, spouses, vacations etc. We are a V30 firm, not V10, so probably makes a difference. But i mean, there are like 200 firms on the V biglaw list, so it's not like V30 is low end.

We’re not really disagreeing. I too had a life outside of work when I was a partner. My point was that even when I wasn’t actually working the stress was still there. You might not realize it at the time, but it is. I mean, let’s be honest: you are rarely going to meet a former Biglaw lawyer who leaves the law and regrets the decision for any reason other than finances.

NP: I agree with this. While I was in it, I would have said the same as rose-glasses PP: I love the work, loved my colleagues, enjoyed my clients, most of my friends were people I worked with, met my spouse at work, and we had a lot a fun. But after you leave the firm life, maybe a year after you are out, it hits you. You look back and realize that your mental space was 100% take up by work. You were never "off" even when you were on vacation with your family or enjoying dinner together. You could convince yourself and others that you had turned it off, but only on that day when it really is off -- after you've bene gone for a long time-- that silence in your head hits you hard, and you realize that what you thought was being present with your family was really only being partly there. But you can't always see it while you're in it because it is so much a part of you and your normal way of being.

DH is a big law partner and this is what I’m most worried about. He has great colleagues (not at all a toxic work environment), interesting work, and even though he’s in commercial litigation his hours are much better than many here (and no he’s not a rainmaker with a cushy situation). So it would be great if it weren’t for the fact that he is basically always on call. Even being a doctor you have times where whatever happens to your patient isn’t your problem. You know that somebody else is going to handle things just fine. But even when one of my husbands cases isn’t hot, he could at any minute get an email from the client saying they need something from him. If he got to the point where there was really and truly no way that somebody would demand his time, it would mean he had clients/cases so no way to bill hours, and that’s its own stress.

And he is great with family. He goes to back to school nights, does all the yard stuff, cleans a good amount, reads to our son, organizes fun family activities, etc. And he exercises a lot. I just don’t know how he does it and boy do I hope he finds a different job soon.

[Anonymous]

The worst is being married to a big law associate who is trying to make partner. High level of stress/hours, similar problems, yet no where near the same level of money and no guarantee of partnership and a one day payoff...