women's invisible labor - anyone had luck getting spouse to take on more of the mental work?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
My husband has severe ADHD which he refuses to medicate.

He can't even find his keys in the morning.

Yes, I do all the mental work. I'd be happy to do so if only he could hold down a job.

I hate to say this but you should have picked a different husband.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My husband has severe ADHD which he refuses to medicate.

He can't even find his keys in the morning.

Yes, I do all the mental work. I'd be happy to do so if only he could hold down a job.

I hate to say this but you should have picked a different husband.

Hindsight is 20/20.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:i tried unsuccessfully to get DH to do some of these tasks, i tried to be hands off and not micromanage him, but what ended up happening was that he did not take care of any of the camp forms for the summer and we lost our spot in one of the camps. Some bills went unpaid, doctors appointments missed, homework and projects not completed. I ended up realizing that he is not going to be an equal partner in this regard, so I shifted more kid related tasks to him, like putting them to bed, driving them to school. I also started doing more things that relax me to de-stress. Yoga daily, massage weekly, etc

I think this is a good plan and it's what I do with my husband - don't expect him to do anything that requires planning or research because he will forget. Instead, write down all of the tasks that are done (including school forms, summer camp planning, etc.), and show him the list with his name beside half of the tasks. These tasks will be the ones that he CAN'T forget because they're physical and must be done. For instance, I buy all family birthday gifts, my husband unloads the dishwasher. I interface with our nanny and remember to pay her, my husband gets the toddler out of the crib and changes her diaper each morning.

My experience with my husband has been that he doesn't think a lot of the social/emotional work that I do is valuable - he views it more like a hobby. As if I like to research camps or buy birthday gifts for his parents. So it's been an uphill battle to get him to remember to do any of these tasks. It's as if he waxed the car every weekend, and thought that was really important, and then was upset when I didn't do it. You can't make someone want to perform tasks that they see little value in.

Counseling has also helped us have a safe space to discuss these issues. It's a lot less heated to save up my grievances and discuss them twice a month with our marriage counselor, rather than unload on him in the moment.

Remember that we're just one-two generations into this whole working mom thing, and it's a learning curve for everyone. Good luck to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i tried unsuccessfully to get DH to do some of these tasks, i tried to be hands off and not micromanage him, but what ended up happening was that he did not take care of any of the camp forms for the summer and we lost our spot in one of the camps. Some bills went unpaid, doctors appointments missed, homework and projects not completed. I ended up realizing that he is not going to be an equal partner in this regard, so I shifted more kid related tasks to him, like putting them to bed, driving them to school. I also started doing more things that relax me to de-stress. Yoga daily, massage weekly, etc

I think this is a good plan and it's what I do with my husband - don't expect him to do anything that requires planning or research because he will forget. Instead, write down all of the tasks that are done (including school forms, summer camp planning, etc.), and show him the list with his name beside half of the tasks. These tasks will be the ones that he CAN'T forget because they're physical and must be done. For instance, I buy all family birthday gifts, my husband unloads the dishwasher. I interface with our nanny and remember to pay her, my husband gets the toddler out of the crib and changes her diaper each morning.

My experience with my husband has been that he doesn't think a lot of the social/emotional work that I do is valuable - he views it more like a hobby. As if I like to research camps or buy birthday gifts for his parents. So it's been an uphill battle to get him to remember to do any of these tasks. It's as if he waxed the car every weekend, and thought that was really important, and then was upset when I didn't do it. You can't make someone want to perform tasks that they see little value in.

Counseling has also helped us have a safe space to discuss these issues. It's a lot less heated to save up my grievances and discuss them twice a month with our marriage counselor, rather than unload on him in the moment.

Remember that we're just one-two generations into this whole working mom thing, and it's a learning curve for everyone. Good luck to you.

PP who wrote the post above - I should add that instead of writing all of the tasks and just showing it to him with his name beside certain tasks, it's better to make the list together, then each pick tasks off of it like you're picking a soccer team. Hopefully he will gravitate towards the tasks that he can remember.

[Anonymous]

IF you were talking about housework, someone would say to outsource. It's the 21st century, and you can outsource this too. You email the assistant tasks to do and they do the research for you. you have to learn how to describe what you need but you can save a ton of time.

Google "virtual assistant"and you'll find tons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i tried unsuccessfully to get DH to do some of these tasks, i tried to be hands off and not micromanage him, but what ended up happening was that he did not take care of any of the camp forms for the summer and we lost our spot in one of the camps. Some bills went unpaid, doctors appointments missed, homework and projects not completed. I ended up realizing that he is not going to be an equal partner in this regard, so I shifted more kid related tasks to him, like putting them to bed, driving them to school. I also started doing more things that relax me to de-stress. Yoga daily, massage weekly, etc

I think this is a good plan and it's what I do with my husband - don't expect him to do anything that requires planning or research because he will forget. Instead, write down all of the tasks that are done (including school forms, summer camp planning, etc.), and show him the list with his name beside half of the tasks. These tasks will be the ones that he CAN'T forget because they're physical and must be done. For instance, I buy all family birthday gifts, my husband unloads the dishwasher. I interface with our nanny and remember to pay her, my husband gets the toddler out of the crib and changes her diaper each morning.

My experience with my husband has been that he doesn't think a lot of the social/emotional work that I do is valuable - he views it more like a hobby. As if I like to research camps or buy birthday gifts for his parents. So it's been an uphill battle to get him to remember to do any of these tasks. It's as if he waxed the car every weekend, and thought that was really important, and then was upset when I didn't do it. You can't make someone want to perform tasks that they see little value in.

Counseling has also helped us have a safe space to discuss these issues. It's a lot less heated to save up my grievances and discuss them twice a month with our marriage counselor, rather than unload on him in the moment.

Remember that we're just one-two generations into this whole working mom thing, and it's a learning curve for everyone. Good luck to you.

Hi, I'm the OP...thanks for these ideas. You're right - we're still figuring out this two-working parents thing, and really there is a third full-time job of running the home front.

I like the idea of making a list of all the tasks and putting my name besides all that I do so he understands. I'm not going to talk about the concept of emotional labor but I think if he sees a list and all that I do, he would be willing to take on more.

Even so...my DH is good with the physical tasks such as mowing the lawn and unloading the dishwasher, but I am overwhelmed with all the planning tasks. My job involves complicated planning and managing, which is challenging for me, so I'd prefer taking on the physical tasks at home, which I would find relaxing.

[Anonymous]

I'm detail oriented and my DH isn't. I'm a planner and my DH isn't. He makes a ton of money and I don't. He's great managing our investments and I'm clueless. I'm good at what I do and he's good at what he does and we have great appreciation for each others strengths. He'd be clueless about organizing summer camps etc. I'd be clueless in investing in private equity venture funds. We are incredibly different in terms of our strengths but we are perfectly compatible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm detail oriented and my DH isn't. I'm a planner and my DH isn't. He makes a ton of money and I don't. He's great managing our investments and I'm clueless. I'm good at what I do and he's good at what he does and we have great appreciation for each others strengths. He'd be clueless about organizing summer camps etc. I'd be clueless in investing in private equity venture funds. We are incredibly different in terms of our strengths but we are perfectly compatible.

How does this help OP? OP isn't a sahp. She works full-time just like her dh.

[Anonymous]

My DH forgot to sign up during open enrollment one year. The insurance remained the same, but no flexible spending or dependent care account. SMH, but we lived.

I have learned that some of the things I value are not important to him - things like dry towels, toilet paper and a stocked refrigerator. I want him to care, but he simply doesn't.

So, a few years ago I decided to only to and arrange the things that are important to me. I no longer buy gifts or cards for his family. I do Christmas cards and he addresses the ones to his friends & family. I plan parties but only for the kids or my girlfriends - not so much couple or family stuff. If I want to see a movie, I'll buy the tickets and arrange everything. I do not buy him anything like clothes or drugstore stuff - he found out about Amazon and CVS. I started buying a lot more stuff for him to grill. I put it on the counter and tell him that's what's for dinner. I dropped lawn care altogether - I don't care one bit about the yard. He miraculously found time to manage a landscaper.

He works at home a lot, so he 'takes care of' the kids - meaning, he keeps them alive until I get home. They have to fend for themselves where food is concerned. He will stop what he's doing and go drive them places & pick them up when it's needed.

We're approaching 50/50 now and it feels much better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i tried unsuccessfully to get DH to do some of these tasks, i tried to be hands off and not micromanage him, but what ended up happening was that he did not take care of any of the camp forms for the summer and we lost our spot in one of the camps. Some bills went unpaid, doctors appointments missed, homework and projects not completed. I ended up realizing that he is not going to be an equal partner in this regard, so I shifted more kid related tasks to him, like putting them to bed, driving them to school. I also started doing more things that relax me to de-stress. Yoga daily, massage weekly, etc

I think this is a good plan and it's what I do with my husband - don't expect him to do anything that requires planning or research because he will forget. Instead, write down all of the tasks that are done (including school forms, summer camp planning, etc.), and show him the list with his name beside half of the tasks. These tasks will be the ones that he CAN'T forget because they're physical and must be done. For instance, I buy all family birthday gifts, my husband unloads the dishwasher. I interface with our nanny and remember to pay her, my husband gets the toddler out of the crib and changes her diaper each morning.

My experience with my husband has been that he doesn't think a lot of the social/emotional work that I do is valuable - he views it more like a hobby. As if I like to research camps or buy birthday gifts for his parents. So it's been an uphill battle to get him to remember to do any of these tasks. It's as if he waxed the car every weekend, and thought that was really important, and then was upset when I didn't do it. You can't make someone want to perform tasks that they see little value in.

Counseling has also helped us have a safe space to discuss these issues. It's a lot less heated to save up my grievances and discuss them twice a month with our marriage counselor, rather than unload on him in the moment.

Remember that we're just one-two generations into this whole working mom thing, and it's a learning curve for everyone. Good luck to you.

Hi, I'm the OP...thanks for these ideas. You're right - we're still figuring out this two-working parents thing, and really there is a third full-time job of running the home front.

I like the idea of making a list of all the tasks and putting my name besides all that I do so he understands. I'm not going to talk about the concept of emotional labor but I think if he sees a list and all that I do, he would be willing to take on more.

Even so...my DH is good with the physical tasks such as mowing the lawn and unloading the dishwasher, but I am overwhelmed with all the planning tasks. My job involves complicated planning and managing, which is challenging for me, so I'd prefer taking on the physical tasks at home, which I would find relaxing.

PP who wrote the post that you quoted here. If you want to do more physical tasks, I would take the task list, each pick tasks from it, and you pick the tasks that you truly want to do (rather than picking the tasks that you know he'd forget). Then you have to be able to let him take on some of the planning tasks, and see what happens. He may forget and the kids won't get into camp or have their doctor appt. scheduled. Try to make him suffer the natural consequences of that - now someone has to find some other activity for the kids during the summer, now the kids can't go to school because they're not up to date on their shots, etc. So he has to take off work to fix it.

This is where it breaks down for me and I normally bail him out. But if you have the stomach for it, make the list, pick the tasks that you want, and ignore whatever doesn't get done. When I've read other advice about this, it's always said that you need to start holding your nose and letting some things slide. Easier said than done, for sure!

[Anonymous]

I think the key is to keep on your list the things that have to be done your way or those things that you'd have to nag him to do because if he dropped the ball, you'd miss a deadline (camp enrollment, for example). In my house, I make all daycare decisions, pick the clothing, think about meals and make sure house is always stocked with the essentials. Every weekend, I tell him what projects we are doing that weekend, and the deal is that they will get done, just probably not on my timetable (which means he does all his tasks Sunday night around 10 pm). Oh well. He does dishes, I pack kids' lunches - because I care about what the kids eat, and he'd give them a banana. You just have to figure out what you need him to do and assign it. I also have to make myself remember the things he cares for that I don't ever do - anything related to the dog, cars, insurance, investing, FSA, 529s. He gets up every morning with the kids and makes them breakfast, which allows me to shower in peace. He bathes the kids, while I make their lunches - again, in peace. He will take the kids out of teh house on the weekend in a heartbeat if I ask him to - again - to give me peace. So - when I start to get annoyed and feel like the mental burden is too much, I literally make myself list out in my head all the things he does that make my burden greater, so that I tamp down the resentment.

[Anonymous]

Didn't we already have this conversation...multiple times? He ain't doing jack. Get used to it.

And for poster #2 - many of OP's example require mental labor. Would you rather be sipping margaritas on a lounger by the pool or pouring over a digital calendar trying to see when Kid A is free from soccer camp and you aren't going on a grocery run to see when you can schedule the orthodontist trip you forgot?

One example is called relaxing.

The other is called labor. Which adds up into fatigue and exhaustion.

[Anonymous]

NP here. I think PP hit it on the head: you can't make someone want to perform a task they don't value. OP, Psychobabble or not, I agree it's a real phenomenon that women devote a ton of brain space to planning family life. But let's be honest, a lot of stuff we plan and worry about isn't strictly necessary. Doctors and school forms and camp research are all necessary, yes, but they can be achieved with relatively minimal effort. I got a referral from a friend for our ped and that was that. I actually kind of like planning parties and researching camps, but I keep parties simple and we only do one camp per summer. If you want more effort put into those things, to some extent it's fair you do them yourself.

In our marriage, my husband has taken charge of a big area, which is cooking, meal planning, and grocery shopping. This is because he really enjoys cooking and values good food. I on the other hand care very little, and therefore basically never go to the grocery store if I can help it, or meal plan, or cook. (I do make sure we always have a few basics just in case I'm stuck feeding the kids.)

I guess my point is that we found our niches based on what we value and what we enjoy, so that's probably where you should start with your own division of labor. It took us a long time to get here and plenty of conflict, but I think things are reasonably fair now. He's never going to do as much as I do, because he simply doesn't think of it and, if he did, wouldn't think it was that important (hello, holiday cards). I've gotten to be okay with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone had luck getting their DH to take on more of the household tasks such as updating shopping lists, arranging camps for children, finding a pediatrician, planning a party or meals for the week -- things that require research and planning?

For those who do not know what I'm talking about, it's called women's invisible labor, and it's been widely discussed in the news media -- for example, http://time.com/money/4561314/women-work-home-gender-gap/

When I discuss with DH, he gets defensive. He points out that he does more than most men, and he points out all the things he does, as if I'm attacking him. I just need him to take on a greater load of executive functioning tasks. I've bowed out of certain areas, and then nothing happens in those areas (and they are important tasks related to school, home maintenance, and our family relations.) We both work full-time, and I'm tired.

Has anyone found a good way to get a man to take on more of the mental workload required to run a home and a family? I am interested in very practical approaches. I am not asking my DH to do things perfectly. I'm OK with stepping back and letting him do things his way. I just can't continue to be the one who has to remember and delegate and remind. Thank you!

This is mental work? LoL! Making a grocery list and scheduling camps? Do you have a job for paid income? I'd like to know how you manage a real project I'd this is mental eork.

Can my DH claim mental work when he does a home improvement project because he spends a ton of time researching when he does that. How about when he plans the spring and fall gardens and tends to that? Another heavy mental load.

How do you know the dh is doing gardening projects? Maybe they don't even have a yard. Btw, OP specifically stated that she needs her dh to step up in the home maintenance department. So he probably isn't doing home improvement projects either.

No, she is telling is it is hard for her to think. That thinking is a struggle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Didn't we already have this conversation...multiple times? He ain't doing jack. Get used to it.

And for poster #2 - many of OP's example require mental labor. Would you rather be sipping margaritas on a lounger by the pool or pouring over a digital calendar trying to see when Kid A is free from soccer camp and you aren't going on a grocery run to see when you can schedule the orthodontist trip you forgot?

One example is called relaxing.

The other is called labor. Which adds up into fatigue and exhaustion.

This is life, a very basic and easy first world life at that.. You have to think. Life is not sitting on a chair drinking yourself or pickled. There is nothing challenging about making a shopping list, finding one of hundreds of pediatricians in the area, or scheduling camp. Hard mental work is performing hand surgery, rewiring your homes electric, searching for fresh water daily for your family, hard is having a tooth ache and no access to a dentist, hard is or rebuilding an engine. Deciding between YMCA or art camp is not a struggle. Unless you are mentally challenged.