School Shooting in Michigan. 3 Teens DEAD. 1 15-yr old suspect in custody.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think the gun culture of the area complicated the matter for the school social worker. If guns are a past time/hobby for the family, it’s hard to say whether searching bullets during class is seriously problematic or more like searching to sports equipment wit switch games online during class (not ideal but NbD). Because the parents perceive their gun cultut as under threat, they don’t listen to any concerns that their son has an abnormal relationship with guns — plus it’s probably hard for the social workers to even gauge what is healthy or not.

+1

Agree, it is impossible to gauge the insanity.

This is a great point. Guns are such an big part of the culture there that the school would have to be careful. You know these crappy parents were ready to turn this into a 2a issue rather than looking at their kid and realizing he needed help.

No. All of this ignores the absolutely horrifying drawing and extremely disturbing language written on the drawing. If it were “just” the ammo search I could see your point, but it wasn’t.

Did the guidance counselor he saw on the Tuesday know about the bullet search on the Monday? He explained the drawing as part of a video game, the parents backed him up. Lots of kids his age play violent video games, so it really wouldn't be that surprising.

Analyzing the drawing as inspired by the violent video games is a perfectly reasonable approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not saying excessive screens causes it, but I do feel like it’s making it worse. And the kids who are “harder to deal with” get way more screen time than “easier” children. Even at the school where I teach, it’s extremely common for a child with an IEP to receive screen time as a “reward” for meeting a daily goal (either for behavior, or completing an undesired task, etc.) I hate it but it’s up to the resource teacher.

Wow. I know this site loves to go into hysterics about "screens", but this is quite the reach.

Everything but the first sentence (an opinion) is a statement of fact, at least at the public elementary school where I teach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not saying excessive screens causes it, but I do feel like it’s making it worse. And the kids who are “harder to deal with” get way more screen time than “easier” children. Even at the school where I teach, it’s extremely common for a child with an IEP to receive screen time as a “reward” for meeting a daily goal (either for behavior, or completing an undesired task, etc.) I hate it but it’s up to the resource teacher.

Wow. I know this site loves to go into hysterics about "screens", but this is quite the reach.

Everything but the first sentence (an opinion) is a statement of fact, at least at the public elementary school where I teach.

DP. I am also a teacher. I agree 100% with this.

The U.S. Surgeon Generals recent report on the youth mental health crisis confirms that screens are a huge part of the problem.

Huge.

The mounting evidence is overwhelmingly negative on screens and the youthful brain.

It is an epidemic. And it’s not being addressed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not saying excessive screens causes it, but I do feel like it’s making it worse. And the kids who are “harder to deal with” get way more screen time than “easier” children. Even at the school where I teach, it’s extremely common for a child with an IEP to receive screen time as a “reward” for meeting a daily goal (either for behavior, or completing an undesired task, etc.) I hate it but it’s up to the resource teacher.

Wow. I know this site loves to go into hysterics about "screens", but this is quite the reach.

Everything but the first sentence (an opinion) is a statement of fact, at least at the public elementary school where I teach.

DP. I am also a teacher. I agree 100% with this.

The U.S. Surgeon Generals recent report on the youth mental health crisis confirms that screens are a huge part of the problem.

Huge.

The mounting evidence is overwhelmingly negative on screens and the youthful brain.

It is an epidemic. And it’s not being addressed.

I agree (DP here). But in this case, the child needed help and the parents laughed it off and failed him. Then gave him a gun.

As far as the screens - it is a reasonable presumption that the parents are paying for those screens, and it is perfectly fine to revoke them from your child at any time, especially if that is the "best" use of their day. Be the parent. Some parents are so depressed and checked out, they have given up. It seems the case here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not saying excessive screens causes it, but I do feel like it’s making it worse. And the kids who are “harder to deal with” get way more screen time than “easier” children. Even at the school where I teach, it’s extremely common for a child with an IEP to receive screen time as a “reward” for meeting a daily goal (either for behavior, or completing an undesired task, etc.) I hate it but it’s up to the resource teacher.

Wow. I know this site loves to go into hysterics about "screens", but this is quite the reach.

Everything but the first sentence (an opinion) is a statement of fact, at least at the public elementary school where I teach.

DP. I am also a teacher. I agree 100% with this.

The U.S. Surgeon Generals recent report on the youth mental health crisis confirms that screens are a huge part of the problem.

Huge.

The mounting evidence is overwhelmingly negative on screens and the youthful brain.

It is an epidemic. And it’s not being addressed.

I agree (DP here). But in this case, the child needed help and the parents laughed it off and failed him. Then gave him a gun.

As far as the screens - it is a reasonable presumption that the parents are paying for those screens, and it is perfectly fine to revoke them from your child at any time, especially if that is the "best" use of their day. Be the parent. Some parents are so depressed and checked out, they have given up. It seems the case here.

So true!! You are one of the good parents, who understand this simple fact.

Some here will undoubtably disagree, but I remind DD all the time:

- it is not your phone; it is my phone. I pay the bills, I signed the contract, and I can take my phone away whenever I see fit. She, in turn, is very responsible.

PP I like the way you characterize parents as just “checked out.” It is sadly true and common. Many in this generation are being raised by TikTok and Instagram.

No wonder there is an epidemic of mental illness according to the Surgeon General.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I safely assume the most famous civil attorney in Michigan, Geoffrey Feiger -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Fieger -- will have a press conference next week announcing he's suing the district for a nine figure sum on behalf of the shooting victims and any students present at the high school that day.

Called it. Press conference today at 11AM by attorney Geoffrey Feiger. He is detailing two $100M lawsuits on behalf of a female shooting victim and her sister: https://www.abc12.com/news/crime/fieger-law-firm-files-100-million-lawsuits-over-oxford-high-school-shooting/article_155e8f94-58f4-11ec-9fe2-6f44839ef49c.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I safely assume the most famous civil attorney in Michigan, Geoffrey Feiger -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Fieger -- will have a press conference next week announcing he's suing the district for a nine figure sum on behalf of the shooting victims and any students present at the high school that day.

Called it. Press conference today at 11AM by attorney Geoffrey Feiger. He is detailing two $100M lawsuits on behalf of a female shooting victim and her sister: https://www.abc12.com/news/crime/fieger-law-firm-files-100-million-lawsuits-over-oxford-high-school-shooting/article_155e8f94-58f4-11ec-9fe2-6f44839ef49c.html

"Defendants in the lawsuits include Oxford Community Schools, Superintendent Mark Throne, the Oxford High School principal, counselors, the dean of students, two teachers and another staff member."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
SO OVER people trying to use "bullying" - when that is exactly, exactly what they are doing. There is no excuse for shooting or injuring other students. Period. Stop deflecting, it is obvious. Handle your issues. Handle your anger issues.

Just ignore the "bully" posts. Off topic.

Bullying is something that people should be allowed to talk about
To me it sounds like he had an unhappy home and school kids sensed that and he ended up as an easy victim. None of this excuses anything, but it should be something that people can talk about without being accused

Sure. Talk about it at home, talk about it with a counselor, be a parent and get your kid the help he is literally crying out for.

Don't go to the school at school up the school.

Your problems should not be our problems.

Where is the help? Seriously. Everyone keeps saying, get the kid help. The help is on a 6 month waiting list. The kid, most likely, did not show signs of needing to be admitted to a hospital for immediate treatment. Weekly therapy is $200 a week plus - for a middle class family, that is the difference between affording their mortgage or therapy. Therapy covered by insurance is near impossible to come by. The process is slow and finding a good therapist on the first go around, is also close to impossible.
I am not implying that we shouldn't try but if you have not been in the situation to try to get your child help in the last year, you should not be screaming that. There.is.not.help.

DO, with a kid in therapy. I know how expensive it’s. Guess what, that does not change the fact that these kids need help. We cannot just throw up our hands. We need to be screaming our lungs out that we need a workable, affordable mental health system. We need to offer suffering families viable resources. We cannot just say it does not work, costs too much and walk away. People are suffering, raise our voices.

Let’s talk about why so many kids are so broken and don’t blame the pandemic - this was a problem well before Covid

Excellent point. Parents are more consumed with themselves, and less consumed with their children, perhaps. For instance, the parents of this particular shooter could not even be bothered to take him home that day, and clearly wanted him to be someone - anyone- else's problem.

Oh shut up. It isn’t always the parents fault. In this case, maybe. Maybe not.
Things happen biologically, physically and mentally to kids that cause trauma. Mental illness is not the parents fault.
The fact that people are recognizing many kids are “broken” and need help is actually a positive thing.

No one said that mental illness is the parents fault. Failing to get them the help they need, most certainly is. The school can't raise your kid.

We found a therapist that has a sliding scale fee. If you want to find the help, it most certainly is out there.

You shut up.

I'm not the previous poster but this "help" is illusory. The parents I know with kids with serious issues struggle constantly to find and afford help. Most of the help they can afford is very temporary.

These garbage parents didn’t try AT ALL. So spare us the sob story about “struggling constantly to find and afford help.”

Exactly. If there was a trail of attempts made to seek mental health treatment, if they hadn’t bought him a gun (or at the very least searched his backpack that day!!), if they had even seemed concerned enough to check him out of school when those concerns were raised, this would be a much different scenario. But these are parents who stuck their head in the sand. They just wanted a kid to have fun with (take him shooting and post about it on social media, laughing and telling him not to get caught searching ammo, etc). They absolutely failed in some very basic duties including simply being responsible gun owners who keep their weapon properly locked up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think the gun culture of the area complicated the matter for the school social worker. If guns are a past time/hobby for the family, it’s hard to say whether searching bullets during class is seriously problematic or more like searching to sports equipment wit switch games online during class (not ideal but NbD). Because the parents perceive their gun cultut as under threat, they don’t listen to any concerns that their son has an abnormal relationship with guns — plus it’s probably hard for the social workers to even gauge what is healthy or not.

The bullet search is worthless in the criminal case for the reasons you cite. The charge against the parents will not work unless they knew he was thinking of doing this.

Read the charges again. They didn’t need foreknowledge; they were grossly negligent.

That is my point. Gross negligence requires knowledge that he may do something like this. Without that you have nothing.

m

I would argue the fact they texted him “don’t do it” upon hearing about a school shooting and went to check for the gun shows they had pretty good knowledge that this was a very real possibility (which they supplied the weapon for!). If your kid’s school was being shot up, would your first inclination be that they are the shooter? I would assume most parents (including those with no knowledge of their kid’s risk of violence) would immediately be concerned their child may be a victim. These people were not completely caught off guard … they damn well knew this could happen.

[Anonymous]

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/09/oxford-high-shooting-lawsuit-riley-franz-family-school-district/6441764001/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you guys see the Daily Mail exclusive? The young man was employed at a local diner last year -- and was caught on security footage collapsing and banging his head on a table:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10280793/Ethan-Crumbley-seen-collapsing-working-diner-year.html

Substance abuse? Possible head injury or concussion from the fall? Very concerning and I wonder if he was having annual physicals? Perhaps there was an underlying organic issue of some kind going on. His coworker sounded very kind and concerned.

He and his brother were doing weed in the back room. Mother didn't care when called - she told the store manager he just happened eaten that day.

Negligent parents, they deserve everything coming their way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
SO OVER people trying to use "bullying" - when that is exactly, exactly what they are doing. There is no excuse for shooting or injuring other students. Period. Stop deflecting, it is obvious. Handle your issues. Handle your anger issues.

Just ignore the "bully" posts. Off topic.

Bullying is something that people should be allowed to talk about
To me it sounds like he had an unhappy home and school kids sensed that and he ended up as an easy victim. None of this excuses anything, but it should be something that people can talk about without being accused

Sure. Talk about it at home, talk about it with a counselor, be a parent and get your kid the help he is literally crying out for.

Don't go to the school at school up the school.

Your problems should not be our problems.

Where is the help? Seriously. Everyone keeps saying, get the kid help. The help is on a 6 month waiting list. The kid, most likely, did not show signs of needing to be admitted to a hospital for immediate treatment. Weekly therapy is $200 a week plus - for a middle class family, that is the difference between affording their mortgage or therapy. Therapy covered by insurance is near impossible to come by. The process is slow and finding a good therapist on the first go around, is also close to impossible.
I am not implying that we shouldn't try but if you have not been in the situation to try to get your child help in the last year, you should not be screaming that. There.is.not.help.

DO, with a kid in therapy. I know how expensive it’s. Guess what, that does not change the fact that these kids need help. We cannot just throw up our hands. We need to be screaming our lungs out that we need a workable, affordable mental health system. We need to offer suffering families viable resources. We cannot just say it does not work, costs too much and walk away. People are suffering, raise our voices.

Let’s talk about why so many kids are so broken and don’t blame the pandemic - this was a problem well before Covid

Excellent point. Parents are more consumed with themselves, and less consumed with their children, perhaps. For instance, the parents of this particular shooter could not even be bothered to take him home that day, and clearly wanted him to be someone - anyone- else's problem.

Oh shut up. It isn’t always the parents fault. In this case, maybe. Maybe not.
Things happen biologically, physically and mentally to kids that cause trauma. Mental illness is not the parents fault.
The fact that people are recognizing many kids are “broken” and need help is actually a positive thing.

No one said that mental illness is the parents fault. Failing to get them the help they need, most certainly is. The school can't raise your kid.

We found a therapist that has a sliding scale fee. If you want to find the help, it most certainly is out there.

You shut up.

I'm not the previous poster but this "help" is illusory. The parents I know with kids with serious issues struggle constantly to find and afford help. Most of the help they can afford is very temporary.

These garbage parents didn’t try AT ALL. So spare us the sob story about “struggling constantly to find and afford help.”

Exactly. If there was a trail of attempts made to seek mental health treatment, if they hadn’t bought him a gun (or at the very least searched his backpack that day!!), if they had even seemed concerned enough to check him out of school when those concerns were raised, this would be a much different scenario. But these are parents who stuck their head in the sand. They just wanted a kid to have fun with (take him shooting and post about it on social media, laughing and telling him not to get caught searching ammo, etc). They absolutely failed in some very basic duties including simply being responsible gun owners who keep their weapon properly locked up.

Yes - they 100% failed him (and the school community) on the gun issue. No doubt or question there.
However, you have no idea if they sought treatment for their child. Pulling him out of school that day without being able to predict the future would have done no good. You cannot march directly into a therapists office within hours of having a school counselor call you in. The parents were horrifically irresponsible for giving him the gun but expecting them to pull him from school and find help within hours is delusional - recognizing that no one thought he would shoot up the school.

[Anonymous]

"delusional"? Why is it delusional to expect that parents would follow a school counselor's recommendations regarding to something so simple as taking a 15-year-old home?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you guys see the Daily Mail exclusive? The young man was employed at a local diner last year -- and was caught on security footage collapsing and banging his head on a table:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10280793/Ethan-Crumbley-seen-collapsing-working-diner-year.html

Substance abuse? Possible head injury or concussion from the fall? Very concerning and I wonder if he was having annual physicals? Perhaps there was an underlying organic issue of some kind going on. His coworker sounded very kind and concerned.

He and his brother were doing weed in the back room. Mother didn't care when called - she told the store manager he just happened eaten that day.

Negligent parents, they deserve everything coming their way.

And he told the manager that it was his dad who gave him the weed!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you guys see the Daily Mail exclusive? The young man was employed at a local diner last year -- and was caught on security footage collapsing and banging his head on a table:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10280793/Ethan-Crumbley-seen-collapsing-working-diner-year.html

Substance abuse? Possible head injury or concussion from the fall? Very concerning and I wonder if he was having annual physicals? Perhaps there was an underlying organic issue of some kind going on. His coworker sounded very kind and concerned.

He and his brother were doing weed in the back room. Mother didn't care when called - she told the store manager he just happened eaten that day.

Negligent parents, they deserve everything coming their way.

And he told the manager that it was his dad who gave him the weed!

To clarify-- his older brother, Eli, said that to the manager. The weed incident was prior to the of this video, where he falls down.

Pot doesn't make you stumble around like that, though, right? So the weed incident is just another indicator of what kind of parents they were. This stumbling and fall must have been caused by something else. Alcohol? But if Ethan were drunk, seems like that other employee would recognize it and react a little differently.