Christmas Trees

[Anonymous]

One of the issues here is that this girl has not been able to live with her own father since she was eight. She had no say in that situation. And now that she has the chance to live with her dad, it is in a situation where an important celebration of hers is viewed as something of a threat by the new wife and children.

I'm trying to put myself in the stepdaughter's shoes just to figure out how this feels from her point of view. I don't have an answer here, but maybe some empathy for this young person who lost out on a lot of time with her dad during some very important years in her growing up is in order here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm a differnent poster but still a Jew who would be uncomfortable with a tree in my household. Is a tree really going to fix this problem, though? I would think, the traditional Christmas is a family day, with the kids waking up at 6am for presents, family gathered all day, special meals, etc (all that stuff I see in the movies!) Instead stepdaughter is going to wake up to kids that are sleeping in because the day is off from school. Mom maybe getting some extra housework in because nothing is open anywhere to do errands. Maybe even going to work. (As a Jew, I always work Christmas as that allows other to take off - I'm in the medical field)

Even if there is a tree. Any even if there's some sort of presents or special dinner, how can it be at all the same as celebrating with a Christian family? It just seems like the reality is either stepdaughter celebrates at her mom's house, or, at baseline there is going to be some level of compromise. Is the tree even going to seem like largest issue?

OP here--- I think you may have hit on the bigger issue which DH did not bring up to me. You're right. Dec 25th is not a special family day in our house. DH has always gone into the office. I spend the morning writing my employee evaluations that are due Dec 31st. The kids get up when they get up, have some cereal, and watch tv until I'm done. Then we go to the JCC for some pool time. In the late afternoon, we do some sort of community service project with the JCC. Of course, my SD is welcome to attend any and all of the events that we do--but somehow, I don't think that's what she has in mind for Christmas day. I typically make spaghetti for dinner or if I was on the ball that week, I might have picked up a rotisserie chicken. I get that Christmas is a family holiday. But even with a tree, I'm not sure I can make the house feel like Christmas.

I know a lot of jewish people on this thread are advocating no tree--but it is her home. As I've read this thread over the past few days, I've realized it's the size of the tree that is bothering me. The small tree that someone posted a picture of would be lovely. In judiasm, we just don't have any large overt symbols like the Christmas tree. The menorah fits on my windowsill. The mezzuah fits in my hand. The sedar plate is no bigger than a large turkey platter. The sukkah is rather large but since it's outside it doesn't feel that big.

DH always promised me that once the kids (she has an older brother) were 18 we could start going away for winter break. That it would be the kids choice to join us or not. He never wanted to ask them to make the choice between a winter vacation with us and spending Christmas with their mother. Maybe this year we could start going on vacation.

As for her spending Christmas with her mother---there was a falling out. But it's only July and Dec is a long way away.

I'm a Jew, married to a non-Jew (atheist, raised by atheists who were raised Protestant). We're raising our DS Jewish, but to respect the traditions of both sides of the family. So, we celebrate secular Christmas with my ILs, but we never had a tree or anything like that in our house for the first 7 years we were married.

Last year, though, MIL was sick, and she didn't want us to come visit for the holidays. Christmas has always been a special day for DH, and I wanted him to still feel special. I didn't want him to ignore his family traditions just because his mom was sick. (And also to take his mind off of the fact that his mom was sick, and he wasn't going to be home for Christmas for the first time in 30+ years.)

So, we got a small tree and a "starter pack" of ornaments. Preschool-age DS also made a few ornaments. And I made a couple of Jewish-themed ornaments, too. I got cheap stockings from Bed Bath & Beyond and filled them with dollar-store trinkets. And I made his mom's recipe for cinnamon rolls on Christmas morning. We had Chinese food on Christmas Eve, as is my family's tradition.

DH felt better about not being at home, and I didn't feel like my religion was being infringed on at all. I think it's great that you're making these considerations for your SD. A tabletop tree is a great compromise.

[Anonymous]

OP - every time you post I like you more. You seem like a decent person trying to do the right thing for everyone. I advocated talking to DH and SD earlier on this thread but in light of the additional facts you've posted, I wanted to urge you to table this conversation and this whole decision for a few months. If SD has had a falling out with her mom, things must be very raw for her right now. I can't imagine she will know now what she wants or needs in December and the answer to that question will likely hinge in large part on how things are with her mom at that time, what her brother is doing (assuming she hasn't also fallen out with him), and what her alternatives are. No point in taking any hard lines or decisions now. Frankly, if things are not resolved with her mom SD might be grateful for an opportunity to go on vacation and forget about Christmas. Or she might need a way to celebrate even if it's not all out and hopefully at that time you can reach some compromise. Or things might be resolved and she'll have no expectation of any Christmas decoration or celebration at your house at all, since it's never been there before. Hard to say now and no point in forcing a decision.

Kudos to you again for recognizing this is her house too and looking for ways to help everyone feel comfortable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such a nasty thread and I am amazed that nobody wants to call out the op.

It is your stepdaughters home for the time being as well. She knowingly married a man with a Christian daughter. Let her have a damn tree - it's not going to hurt you.

As a Christian I would never want someone under my roof to feel unloved including the celebration of their religious holidays.

I think sour op wants to pretend she doesn't have stepchildren, or worse, is afraid folks will gossip at her temple about her Christmas tree.

I feel sorry for that stepdaughter who clearly has no home. I guess she's just a shiksa though.

You just don't get it. As a Jew, I'm very worried about my children assimilating into the dominant Christian culture. You act like we can just have a tree in the house and that's fine. It isn't. For Christians, you can dabble in other people's traditions and that's fine, because you're the vast majority. Jews aren't. We have to constantly guard against assimilation. That means, among other things, keeping a Jewish home. A house with a Christmas tree isn't a Jewish home. OP cannot accommodate both the stepdaughter and her own desire to have a Jewish home. PERIOD. They're mutually exclusive.

While I agree with you, my heart breaks for the non Jewish stepdaughter who can't celebrate how she traditionally does. I spent Christmas by myself once and it was the most depressing day I can remember. It's normally a family day, but instead she'll be with a stepmother who says she can't celebrate because she isn't religious enough.

I think the stepdaughter needs to spend Christmas elsewhere.

I'm a differnent poster but still a Jew who would be uncomfortable with a tree in my household. Is a tree really going to fix this problem, though? I would think, the traditional Christmas is a family day, with the kids waking up at 6am for presents, family gathered all day, special meals, etc (all that stuff I see in the movies!) Instead stepdaughter is going to wake up to kids that are sleeping in because the day is off from school. Mom maybe getting some extra housework in because nothing is open anywhere to do errands. Maybe even going to work. (As a Jew, I always work Christmas as that allows other to take off - I'm in the medical field)

Even if there is a tree. Any even if there's some sort of presents or special dinner, how can it be at all the same as celebrating with a Christian family? It just seems like the reality is either stepdaughter celebrates at her mom's house, or, at baseline there is going to be some level of compromise. Is the tree even going to seem like largest issue?

Of course it's not going to be the same, it's going to be a compromise, which is something both sides should be doing. No one (or at least pretty much no one) on this thread is advocating for the OP hanging stockings from the mantle, stocking the tree for everyone, and cooking a big Christmas dinner. Telling the stepdaughter she either needs to leave her home for Christmas or not celebrate at all is a really hostile response to this situation.

I'm the poster you are replying to. I agree, compromise is called for. I guess, what I'm not understanding is why, from my point of view, there seems to be so much hostility to the viewpoint that many people would be uncomfortable with a traditional tree. (Large tree, prominently displayed in public area of house). If compromise is part of the baseline, why is that not a reasonable compromise. What I'm feeling most acutely from this thread, as a Jewish poster, is hostility towards the viewpoint that a tree is a Jewish household is not approrpiate.

Bingo Schlomo- it is hostility to the idea it is a Jewish household; it is in fact a mixed household.

The anti-semitism in here is unbelievable. Can I make a Catholic priest rape joke or is that frowned upon?

Where exactly is the anti-semitism? there have been many posts by Jewish people on here who "can't accept a Christian child," are "guarding against assimilation" and seem to believe that a Christmas tree is like the Jewish kryptonite. The Christian point of view seems more welcoming and open/minded. I my (very humble) opinion i suspect there is more anti-semitism in real life than on this thread. But this is just my interpretation.

[Anonymous]

It's easy to be welcoming and open minded when we are taking about being welcoming of ones own culture. Personally, I wouldn't go so far as to call most of what's been posted antisemitic, but it is frustratingly colored by a sort of entitled majority standpoint. Many Jews have legitimate, nuanced reasons they do not want a Christmas tree in their house. There's been a lot of mockery to that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's easy to be welcoming and open minded when we are taking about being welcoming of ones own culture. Personally, I wouldn't go so far as to call most of what's been posted antisemitic, but it is frustratingly colored by a sort of entitled majority standpoint. Many Jews have legitimate, nuanced reasons they do not want a Christmas tree in their house. There's been a lot of mockery to that.

Forgive me, I don't see the mockery you do. I see posters trying to assist a very reasonable OP in understanding how to balance her discomfort with appropriately accommodating her SD's and DH's (newly renewed) Christmas celebration. The discussion centers around the symbolism of the tree. I see more rigidity in those who state Jewish household = no tree whatsoever. But I acknowledge that my takeaway on this is not informed by being Jewish and constantly surrounded by the majority Christian celebration and risk of encroachment. FYI, I'm neither Christian nor Jewish - I grew up in a devout Hindu home so it isn't anywhere near a direct a threat to our culture. We always had a Christmas tree and stockings.

[Anonymous]

I totally agree that the rigidity is coming from the Jewish perspective.

[Anonymous]

As a Christian who has both a nativity set (aka religious according to OP) and multiple Christmas trees- I would see nothing wrong with lighting a menorah, having a Seder or anything else for a step daughter.

The more I read about the issues with stepchildren, the more adamant that I would never marry anyone with children. You apparently have no say over what is spent on them, cars, college, alimony. It's like your a parent to stepchildren, but there's no ability to parent or discipline. It's just an awful dynamic!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm a differnent poster but still a Jew who would be uncomfortable with a tree in my household. Is a tree really going to fix this problem, though? I would think, the traditional Christmas is a family day, with the kids waking up at 6am for presents, family gathered all day, special meals, etc (all that stuff I see in the movies!) Instead stepdaughter is going to wake up to kids that are sleeping in because the day is off from school. Mom maybe getting some extra housework in because nothing is open anywhere to do errands. Maybe even going to work. (As a Jew, I always work Christmas as that allows other to take off - I'm in the medical field)

Even if there is a tree. Any even if there's some sort of presents or special dinner, how can it be at all the same as celebrating with a Christian family? It just seems like the reality is either stepdaughter celebrates at her mom's house, or, at baseline there is going to be some level of compromise. Is the tree even going to seem like largest issue?

OP here--- I think you may have hit on the bigger issue which DH did not bring up to me. You're right. Dec 25th is not a special family day in our house. DH has always gone into the office. I spend the morning writing my employee evaluations that are due Dec 31st. The kids get up when they get up, have some cereal, and watch tv until I'm done. Then we go to the JCC for some pool time. In the late afternoon, we do some sort of community service project with the JCC. Of course, my SD is welcome to attend any and all of the events that we do--but somehow, I don't think that's what she has in mind for Christmas day. I typically make spaghetti for dinner or if I was on the ball that week, I might have picked up a rotisserie chicken. I get that Christmas is a family holiday. But even with a tree, I'm not sure I can make the house feel like Christmas.

I know a lot of jewish people on this thread are advocating no tree--but it is her home. As I've read this thread over the past few days, I've realized it's the size of the tree that is bothering me. The small tree that someone posted a picture of would be lovely. In judiasm, we just don't have any large overt symbols like the Christmas tree. The menorah fits on my windowsill. The mezzuah fits in my hand. The sedar plate is no bigger than a large turkey platter. The sukkah is rather large but since it's outside it doesn't feel that big.

DH always promised me that once the kids (she has an older brother) were 18 we could start going away for winter break. That it would be the kids choice to join us or not. He never wanted to ask them to make the choice between a winter vacation with us and spending Christmas with their mother. Maybe this year we could start going on vacation.

As for her spending Christmas with her mother---there was a falling out. But it's only July and Dec is a long way away.

A small tree sounds lovely. It's a good compromise. I've had years when I've had no tree at all and years when I've had a 2-3 foot tree. My grandma always had a small tree because she had a tiny house. Not every Christmas tree has to be the size of the White House tree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such a nasty thread and I am amazed that nobody wants to call out the op.

It is your stepdaughters home for the time being as well. She knowingly married a man with a Christian daughter. Let her have a damn tree - it's not going to hurt you.

As a Christian I would never want someone under my roof to feel unloved including the celebration of their religious holidays.

I think sour op wants to pretend she doesn't have stepchildren, or worse, is afraid folks will gossip at her temple about her Christmas tree.

I feel sorry for that stepdaughter who clearly has no home. I guess she's just a shiksa though.

You just don't get it. As a Jew, I'm very worried about my children assimilating into the dominant Christian culture. You act like we can just have a tree in the house and that's fine. It isn't. For Christians, you can dabble in other people's traditions and that's fine, because you're the vast majority. Jews aren't. We have to constantly guard against assimilation. That means, among other things, keeping a Jewish home. A house with a Christmas tree isn't a Jewish home. OP cannot accommodate both the stepdaughter and her own desire to have a Jewish home. PERIOD. They're mutually exclusive.

While I agree with you, my heart breaks for the non Jewish stepdaughter who can't celebrate how she traditionally does. I spent Christmas by myself once and it was the most depressing day I can remember. It's normally a family day, but instead she'll be with a stepmother who says she can't celebrate because she isn't religious enough.

I think the stepdaughter needs to spend Christmas elsewhere.

I'm a differnent poster but still a Jew who would be uncomfortable with a tree in my household. Is a tree really going to fix this problem, though? I would think, the traditional Christmas is a family day, with the kids waking up at 6am for presents, family gathered all day, special meals, etc (all that stuff I see in the movies!) Instead stepdaughter is going to wake up to kids that are sleeping in because the day is off from school. Mom maybe getting some extra housework in because nothing is open anywhere to do errands. Maybe even going to work. (As a Jew, I always work Christmas as that allows other to take off - I'm in the medical field)

Even if there is a tree. Any even if there's some sort of presents or special dinner, how can it be at all the same as celebrating with a Christian family? It just seems like the reality is either stepdaughter celebrates at her mom's house, or, at baseline there is going to be some level of compromise. Is the tree even going to seem like largest issue?

Some Christian families celebrate like that and some don't. My family has Santa presents and Christmas breakfast on 12/25 and that is it. We don't go out and no one comes over, except maybe my brother. We might go out to a movie that afternoon. It's a very low key day for us.

The daughter knows it will be different if she is not at her Mom's house. It's okay for it be different. It should make some effort to include that step-daughter and her traditions, though, because she is part of the family, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I totally agree that the rigidity is coming from the Jewish perspective.

But, as I understand it, its stemming from a culture that is very sensitive to accommodation and assimilation as part of its history. This thread has been very interesting to me and I guess I never really got that, but part of Judaism is adamantly NOT being whatever the majority religion is. As a Christian this hasn't ever been part of my cultural past or heritage. But I can see how it very much is a part of the Jewish culture. I guess it sounds like putting up a tree to some feels like something is being taken away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I totally agree that the rigidity is coming from the Jewish perspective.

But, as I understand it, its stemming from a culture that is very sensitive to accommodation and assimilation as part of its history. This thread has been very interesting to me and I guess I never really got that, but part of Judaism is adamantly NOT being whatever the majority religion is. As a Christian this hasn't ever been part of my cultural past or heritage. But I can see how it very much is a part of the Jewish culture. I guess it sounds like putting up a tree to some feels like something is being taken away.

Only if you perceive it that way. My DH is Jewish and has always participated in Christmas and Easter, as I have in Passover and Hanukkah. Our children were raised observing both. He is probably more into the tree and the lights than I am! But I also take the lead in preparing the latkes and other traditional food and shop for all gifts and decorations for our family and his.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I totally agree that the rigidity is coming from the Jewish perspective.

But, as I understand it, its stemming from a culture that is very sensitive to accommodation and assimilation as part of its history. This thread has been very interesting to me and I guess I never really got that, but part of Judaism is adamantly NOT being whatever the majority religion is. As a Christian this hasn't ever been part of my cultural past or heritage. But I can see how it very much is a part of the Jewish culture. I guess it sounds like putting up a tree to some feels like something is being taken away.

Only if you perceive it that way. My DH is Jewish and has always participated in Christmas and Easter, as I have in Passover and Hanukkah. Our children were raised observing both. He is probably more into the tree and the lights than I am! But I also take the lead in preparing the latkes and other traditional food and shop for all gifts and decorations for our family and his.

This sounds lovely, normal, healthy. But some people on here would call you assimilators ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I totally agree that the rigidity is coming from the Jewish perspective.

But, as I understand it, its stemming from a culture that is very sensitive to accommodation and assimilation as part of its history. This thread has been very interesting to me and I guess I never really got that, but part of Judaism is adamantly NOT being whatever the majority religion is. As a Christian this hasn't ever been part of my cultural past or heritage. But I can see how it very much is a part of the Jewish culture. I guess it sounds like putting up a tree to some feels like something is being taken away.

I don't entirely buy this. I am a Catholic and I don't feel so in line with fellow Christians on a lot of issues. I think religious identities are a fairly nuanced spectrum.

Our family has had the pleasure of hosting a young jewish latin american -- the son of a family friend -- for a year. We enjoyed trying to mark the jewish holidays with him. I certainly don't think that took away from or devalued our Christian home in any way. On the contrary, I think it's entirely consistent with Judeo Christian values.

I will say that I understand the pride of folks in their identities and wanting to resist "assimilation." But while I see a mixed marriage has perhaps challenging this, I don't see how making a young woman -- the husband's daughter -- welcome in the home is any sort of risk for these boys. And I suspect she'd be just fine with a small tree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please please please stick to your guns on this one. A Christmas tree is an overtly Christian symbol and it will only confuse your little ones, who already face enough pressure to assimilate. Your stepdaughter needs to respect your rules in your home. If she wants to celebrate Christmas, she can do it elsewhere.

The stepdaughter didn't bring it up; OP's DH did. He wants to have it in their home this Christmas and asked where they should put it, not whether they should have one. Those little ones are his children, too.

DH agreed to raise their kids a certain way. Now he's trying to change their agreement midstream. OP doesn't have to accept that.

He doesn't appear to be trying to change the way the children with OP are raised. Instead, he is honoring the beliefs of his child with his previous wife. That child is his just as much as the younger ones are.

I take it you're not jewish. Being a Jew means fighting against thousands of years of attempts to annihilate and assimilate your people into the dominant culture. That means drawing a hard line and not allowing your kids to dabble in other religions for fun and means maintaining a Jewish home. Husband is now moving the goalposts and trying to walk back his commitment to maintaining that Jewish home. That IS changing the way OP'a kids are being raised.

OP married a Christian who has kids from another marriage. Her children's sibs are Christians. If racial purity was important to her, she should have married another Jew.

And here come the anti-Semites who think that Jews are a distinct race...

It was a Jewish poster, not a non-Jew, who made the point about bloodlines. That's a racial statement, not a religious or cultural one.

Sorry. You don't get to have your cake and eat it, too. You can't insist on "bloodline" as an argument and then cry "No, YOU'RE a racist!" because someone else criticized you for your racism.