Christmas Trees

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP it looks like you want to deny a young person access to something that brings her joy in order to protect your children from "catching" Christianity.

You say you need your home to be a Jewish Home. But what you're really saying is that you prefer to meet some self-imposed standard of purity than to make this girl feel equal and welcome.

If you stick with your guns, you are privileging blind devotion to norms and practices over the moral and community values that are supposed to be the point of a religious upbringing. You're showing your younger children that Judaism is about exclusion and that this matters more than generosity.

You're also showing your husband where he stands with you- and it's in a corner.

Judaism does seem to be about exclusion, at least based on a lot of what has been posted here. What exactly is it about Christianity that could possibly be "contagious"? It must be exhausting to practice a religion that is so focused on keeping itself intact. I keep waiting for someone to point out that no, Judaism IS about more than banning a Christmas tree from the house, guarding against assimilation, etc. anyone?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP it looks like you want to deny a young person access to something that brings her joy in order to protect your children from "catching" Christianity.

You say you need your home to be a Jewish Home. But what you're really saying is that you prefer to meet some self-imposed standard of purity than to make this girl feel equal and welcome.

If you stick with your guns, you are privileging blind devotion to norms and practices over the moral and community values that are supposed to be the point of a religious upbringing. You're showing your younger children that Judaism is about exclusion and that this matters more than generosity.

You're also showing your husband where he stands with you- and it's in a corner.

Judaism does seem to be about exclusion, at least based on a lot of what has been posted here. What exactly is it about Christianity that could possibly be "contagious"? It must be exhausting to practice a religion that is so focused on keeping itself intact. I keep waiting for someone to point out that no, Judaism IS about more than banning a Christmas tree from the house, guarding against assimilation, etc. anyone?

I am the poster you quoted. I was raised Orthodox but left the religion entirely.

Judaism is not about exclusion, any more than Christianity is about pointing out that non-Christians aren't saved. Like a kitchen knife, every religion can be used in a productive and nurturing manner or as a weapon.

I was raised to be very paranoid that Christians wanted to assimilate all Jews, that this was a bad thing, and that preserving the boundaries between the Tribe and the outside world was of paramount importance. This became so important to the people around me that they dedicated far more energy to it than to loving one's neighbor (all neighbors, not only Jewish ones), treating each other with unconditional love, and the many other useful lessons that a healthy religious practice offers. I'm sure there are Christians, Muslims, and Hindus who do the same thing and it's a shame.

OP doesn't sound like she wants to be one of these people but it seems to me that she is letting the paranoid, purist mentality take precedence over the more important value: that when you have a chance to help someone feel happy, loved, and included-- particularly a family member-- that is a gift in itself. A Christmas tree isn't going to harm anyone, but putting another person last-- visibly, and intentionally-- will hurt. If Judaism is, for you, about values and living a more meaningful life, then take the opportunity to honor all forms of spirituality.

The Jews began as a desert people who had to welcome everyone, which is necessary for survival in the desert. Imagine your home as an oasis for this 18-year-old who at the moment has no mother and nowhere to be but with you. Now think of your own kids: would you want them to see themselves and you as generous, open-minded, and welcoming people or as purists who fear that this symbol of happiness and home will soil their culturally-spotless home?

[Anonymous]

15:23, I am sure your intentions are good but your post appears to be far more about your own journey than it is about OP's situation. The night and day contrast moving from orthodox Judaism as a child to leaving the religion entirely, is just so different from the experience of where OP is coming from that your comments above seem directed toward pushing back on a situation that just doesn't exist here and are imbued with all sorts of assumptions that probably do not apply. Far from being "paranoid" about assimilation, OP married a non-Jew, allows or even embraces her step daughter taking her children to Mass with her, seeks to research the meaning of a tree, etc. But your comments can be interpreted as presuming that any views here that tilt against a living room tree -- no matter what else OP does to accommodate -- necessarily is a choice of elevating "boundaries" above loving kindness. You assert a tree will not "harm anyone" -- but you completely dismiss the obvious truth -- it has put OP in a fair amount of distress prompting this thread and, while there are many different views in the 11 previous pages here, she is by know means alone in her concerns.

As explained above, this SD has been living with Mom. She has had Christmas with Mom, never with Dad all these years. She has decided to live with Dad, SM and their children so she can go to college more conveniently or to save money - whichever. OP isn't telling a 4 year old not to believe in Santa, isn't denying the existence of Christ -- indeed, I believe earlier she said she could almost deal more with a religious simple of a manger than a Tree in the center of the living room. There are plenty of Christians who have also chimed in rebelling against commercialization of Christmas. At this point I think OP has heard all the arguments. Can we leave it be unless someone wants to post general well wishes with her decision?

[Anonymous]

I'm Asian and a Buddhist. We emigrated here when I was 12. My mother worked for an American organization in our home country so we were very familiar with American holidays, including Christmas. We put up a Christmas tree because we liked how it looked and it seemed like a nice American tradition. I love how it looks, so festive and fun. We decorate it with ornaments we've collected from different places we've been. It's nice when we get them out to talk about where we got them and what we were doing. I recognize I don't have the same history of persecutions as Jewish people. But, I think it also helps me see that the tree really isn't about religion but seasonal decoration. Sort of like nothing says spring like daffodils and tulips!

I've got a friend (a Christian) who keeps a tree up all year (it's fake). She decorates it according to the season. I don't know if you can really call it a Christmas tree since it's up year round. She's not very religious.

[Anonymous]

I'm the child of a Jewish and a catholic parent. We had both the tree and the menorah growing up. My parents were inclusive, though I was raised Jewish. OP just seems to want to exclude the SD and the tree is the way to do it.

It's just a tree OP, don't make it a line in the sand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP it looks like you want to deny a young person access to something that brings her joy in order to protect your children from "catching" Christianity.

You say you need your home to be a Jewish Home. But what you're really saying is that you prefer to meet some self-imposed standard of purity than to make this girl feel equal and welcome.

If you stick with your guns, you are privileging blind devotion to norms and practices over the moral and community values that are supposed to be the point of a religious upbringing. You're showing your younger children that Judaism is about exclusion and that this matters more than generosity.

You're also showing your husband where he stands with you- and it's in a corner.

Judaism does seem to be about exclusion, at least based on a lot of what has been posted here. What exactly is it about Christianity that could possibly be "contagious"? It must be exhausting to practice a religion that is so focused on keeping itself intact. I keep waiting for someone to point out that no, Judaism IS about more than banning a Christmas tree from the house, guarding against assimilation, etc. anyone?

Ok, I'll bite: Judaism IS about more than banning a Christmas tree from the house, guarding against assimilation, etc., just like Christianity IS about more than not wearing a Star of David, and trying to "save" people who don't follow your faith.

Yes, Jewish people are very close to the centuries of tradition that came before us, and very aware that not only have there been attempts to get rid of us for at least 2000 years, one of those attempts was only 70 years ago. Many of our relatives were alive then, and many of us had relatives that perished. So, it's kind of fresh.

BUT!

Judaism is also about acts of loving kindness, healing the world, and doing other charitable acts. There are 613 commandments in the Torah (that's 603 more than the most widely-known ones), and most of them are about helping to make the world a better place.

-a Jewish woman who married a non-Jew, is raising our DS Jewish, and proudly has a Christmas tree to support her husband's family traditions, just like he'll read the hagaddah for mine.

[Anonymous]

If we have to shrink the Christmas tree down to the size of a menorah, should we compress the eight days of Hanukkah into one?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If we have to shrink the Christmas tree down to the size of a menorah, should we compress the eight days of Hanukkah into one?

Well, no: the eight days of Hanukkah are based on eight days of divine light following the destruction of the temple in the story of the holiday.

The size of a Christmas tree is based on...the size of the tree you buy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP it looks like you want to deny a young person access to something that brings her joy in order to protect your children from "catching" Christianity.

You say you need your home to be a Jewish Home. But what you're really saying is that you prefer to meet some self-imposed standard of purity than to make this girl feel equal and welcome.

If you stick with your guns, you are privileging blind devotion to norms and practices over the moral and community values that are supposed to be the point of a religious upbringing. You're showing your younger children that Judaism is about exclusion and that this matters more than generosity.

You're also showing your husband where he stands with you- and it's in a corner.

Judaism does seem to be about exclusion, at least based on a lot of what has been posted here. What exactly is it about Christianity that could possibly be "contagious"? It must be exhausting to practice a religion that is so focused on keeping itself intact. I keep waiting for someone to point out that no, Judaism IS about more than banning a Christmas tree from the house, guarding against assimilation, etc. anyone?

Ok, I'll bite: Judaism IS about more than banning a Christmas tree from the house, guarding against assimilation, etc., just like Christianity IS about more than not wearing a Star of David, and trying to "save" people who don't follow your faith.

Yes, Jewish people are very close to the centuries of tradition that came before us, and very aware that not only have there been attempts to get rid of us for at least 2000 years, one of those attempts was only 70 years ago. Many of our relatives were alive then, and many of us had relatives that perished. So, it's kind of fresh.

BUT!

Judaism is also about acts of loving kindness, healing the world, and doing other charitable acts. There are 613 commandments in the Torah (that's 603 more than the most widely-known ones), and most of them are about helping to make the world a better place.

-a Jewish woman who married a non-Jew, is raising our DS Jewish, and proudly has a Christmas tree to support her husband's family traditions, just like he'll read the hagaddah for mine.

Thank !!! You!!!!

[Anonymous]

The real problem w the tree is it is visible from the window and others from temple could learn of the young shiksa in the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP it looks like you want to deny a young person access to something that brings her joy in order to protect your children from "catching" Christianity.

You say you need your home to be a Jewish Home. But what you're really saying is that you prefer to meet some self-imposed standard of purity than to make this girl feel equal and welcome.

If you stick with your guns, you are privileging blind devotion to norms and practices over the moral and community values that are supposed to be the point of a religious upbringing. You're showing your younger children that Judaism is about exclusion and that this matters more than generosity.

You're also showing your husband where he stands with you- and it's in a corner.

Judaism does seem to be about exclusion, at least based on a lot of what has been posted here. What exactly is it about Christianity that could possibly be "contagious"? It must be exhausting to practice a religion that is so focused on keeping itself intact. I keep waiting for someone to point out that no, Judaism IS about more than banning a Christmas tree from the house, guarding against assimilation, etc. anyone?

Ok, I'll bite: Judaism IS about more than banning a Christmas tree from the house, guarding against assimilation, etc., just like Christianity IS about more than not wearing a Star of David, and trying to "save" people who don't follow your faith.

Yes, Jewish people are very close to the centuries of tradition that came before us, and very aware that not only have there been attempts to get rid of us for at least 2000 years, one of those attempts was only 70 years ago. Many of our relatives were alive then, and many of us had relatives that perished. So, it's kind of fresh.

BUT!

Judaism is also about acts of loving kindness, healing the world, and doing other charitable acts. There are 613 commandments in the Torah (that's 603 more than the most widely-known ones), and most of them are about helping to make the world a better place.

-a Jewish woman who married a non-Jew, is raising our DS Jewish, and proudly has a Christmas tree to support her husband's family traditions, just like he'll read the hagaddah for mine.

Thank !!! You!!!!

You're welcome!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm a differnent poster but still a Jew who would be uncomfortable with a tree in my household. Is a tree really going to fix this problem, though? I would think, the traditional Christmas is a family day, with the kids waking up at 6am for presents, family gathered all day, special meals, etc (all that stuff I see in the movies!) Instead stepdaughter is going to wake up to kids that are sleeping in because the day is off from school. Mom maybe getting some extra housework in because nothing is open anywhere to do errands. Maybe even going to work. (As a Jew, I always work Christmas as that allows other to take off - I'm in the medical field)

Even if there is a tree. Any even if there's some sort of presents or special dinner, how can it be at all the same as celebrating with a Christian family? It just seems like the reality is either stepdaughter celebrates at her mom's house, or, at baseline there is going to be some level of compromise. Is the tree even going to seem like largest issue?

OP here--- I think you may have hit on the bigger issue which DH did not bring up to me. You're right. Dec 25th is not a special family day in our house. DH has always gone into the office. I spend the morning writing my employee evaluations that are due Dec 31st. The kids get up when they get up, have some cereal, and watch tv until I'm done. Then we go to the JCC for some pool time. In the late afternoon, we do some sort of community service project with the JCC. Of course, my SD is welcome to attend any and all of the events that we do--but somehow, I don't think that's what she has in mind for Christmas day. I typically make spaghetti for dinner or if I was on the ball that week, I might have picked up a rotisserie chicken. I get that Christmas is a family holiday. But even with a tree, I'm not sure I can make the house feel like Christmas.

I know a lot of jewish people on this thread are advocating no tree--but it is her home. As I've read this thread over the past few days, I've realized it's the size of the tree that is bothering me. The small tree that someone posted a picture of would be lovely. In judiasm, we just don't have any large overt symbols like the Christmas tree. The menorah fits on my windowsill. The mezzuah fits in my hand. The sedar plate is no bigger than a large turkey platter. The sukkah is rather large but since it's outside it doesn't feel that big.

DH always promised me that once the kids (she has an older brother) were 18 we could start going away for winter break. That it would be the kids choice to join us or not. He never wanted to ask them to make the choice between a winter vacation with us and spending Christmas with their mother. Maybe this year we could start going on vacation.

As for her spending Christmas with her mother---there was a falling out. But it's only July and Dec is a long way away.

You know, OP, that has been my thought too reading through all the posts. It's the size of a typical Christmas tree overpowering the Hannukah symbols in the house, just by its typical large size, that's the significant part of this comfort issue. That's it in a nutshell..it's size overpowers the others when you look at the room. And your house is a Judiasm-practicing house. So therefore the Christian symbol should not overpower the Judiasm symbols. That's the conversation with your DH...how you can accomplish that. A small tree in a special prominent place, maybe on a special table with the Christmas gifts for your SD on it, such as the one that was pictured that you're comfortable with. But not bigger than the Jewish symbols in the room. Hopefully your DH will understand that since your family practices Judiasm. And I'm betting your SD will be fine with it. Her celebration of Christmas is acknowledged. And you can make the day more fun than the part working-day you've described. Not singing Christmas carols around the little tree of course, but a more fun-filled day like Christmas would typically be. A fun family dinner, going to the movies, doing the JCC pool, a community service project that is cross-faith, etc.

[Anonymous]

How about baking sugar cookies with the kids? Can do blue and silver icing and sprinkles and red and green icing. Cookies know no religion. . .

[Anonymous]

I think the smaller tree sounds like a nice idea, especially if it's surrounded by gifts and set up in an attractive way-- not a small after-thought.

It seems to me, though, that there is a much bigger, more prominent feature of your home that has far more symbolic significance to your kids than a tree of any size: their father. You married someone who isn't Jewish, who has a child who isn't Jewish, and who presumably has parents and siblings who aren't Jewish. That's what a growing number of young Jewish Americans do today, that's what you did, and odds are good it's what your kids will do (it would be difficult to convey that they shouldn't seek happiness where you did).

Since half of their family and one of their parents is non-Jewish, it would be folly to think that walling the house off from non-Jewish symbols and practices will make them see themselves as somehow 100% Jewish to the exclusion of all else. They are from an interfaith family. That is beautiful in its way, very culturally and intellectually rich. Why work so hard to convey that only 1/2 of their religious heritage applies to them? How will that make them feel about their dad-- or what you feel about their dad?

It's one thing to decide that their religion will be Jewish, and another to describe your home as "a Jewish home," when that simply does not describe every valued person in the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the smaller tree sounds like a nice idea, especially if it's surrounded by gifts and set up in an attractive way-- not a small after-thought.

It seems to me, though, that there is a much bigger, more prominent feature of your home that has far more symbolic significance to your kids than a tree of any size: their father. You married someone who isn't Jewish, who has a child who isn't Jewish, and who presumably has parents and siblings who aren't Jewish. That's what a growing number of young Jewish Americans do today, that's what you did, and odds are good it's what your kids will do (it would be difficult to convey that they shouldn't seek happiness where you did).

Since half of their family and one of their parents is non-Jewish, it would be folly to think that walling the house off from non-Jewish symbols and practices will make them see themselves as somehow 100% Jewish to the exclusion of all else. They are from an interfaith family. That is beautiful in its way, very culturally and intellectually rich. Why work so hard to convey that only 1/2 of their religious heritage applies to them? How will that make them feel about their dad-- or what you feel about their dad?

It's one thing to decide that their religion will be Jewish, and another to describe your home as "a Jewish home," when that simply does not describe every valued person in the house.

This is wonderfully stated.