Can we have a rational discussion about going Greek?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son had an interesting take on it. He’s had several fraternities reach out to him but he isn’t interested. In his opinion it’s A. Weird to pay for friends B. More about gaining social protection by subjugating your will and moral compass to a group and C Limiting as he enjoys bringing together different groups of people. My daughter had a slightly different but similar opinion that she didn’t want some other group picking and dictating her friends for her. She is shockingly beautiful so the queen bees always zero in on her to get her to join their cliques and she’s always rebuffed them, picked her own friends.

Both kids have a strong protect the weaker person ethos and can’t stand people who reject or pick on people to boost their own popularity. Greek life seems to attract people willing to follow not lead, and prey on the weaker people rather than defend.

I do agree with the not wanting to pay for friends. When I att need college rush was fall literally during new student week before clssses had begun. Kids had 2 days on campus then bam! Rush started. So no chance for people to make their own friends and those that had started ended up going different ways because they ended up in different sororities

Someone explain “paying for friends”. The phrase is thrown around all the time and makes little sense.

Is joining any organization where you pay dues (a pool club, a running club, a rec softball team, etc.) and receive a product in return “paying for friends”?

My kid saves money with their fraternity fees compared to the other room & board options…how is that “paying for friends”?

Agree.

[Anonymous]

It’s a regional DC thing to be so anti-Greek.

DMV exceptionalism is measured on academic/EC achievement with the ethos that you can climb into any white collar knowledge job you want with enough effort.

Southern culture (think Alabama) is about “fitting in” to a certain social ideal as the top goal.

New England is about maintaining legacy. Status is built around number and “value of” connections that get passed along each generation.

I grew up New York. It was much more regionally focused where the ultimate win was a wall street job. Hence, competitive college culture was very focused on getting into the Wall Street pipeline schools and making those specific connections to support future career goals.

[Anonymous]

So, anti-Greek means you're at college to focus on your studies. Sounds right to me!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, anti-Greek means you're at college to focus on your studies. Sounds right to me!

Oh please. You sound fun.

[Anonymous]

When I read threads like these I think DCUM should be re-named "DC Grandmoms and Dads." You're all such no fun judgmental fuddy duddies. Do you even remember what it was like to be young and have a little fun?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s a regional DC thing to be so anti-Greek.

DMV exceptionalism is measured on academic/EC achievement with the ethos that you can climb into any white collar knowledge job you want with enough effort.

Southern culture (think Alabama) is about “fitting in” to a certain social ideal as the top goal.

New England is about maintaining legacy. Status is built around number and “value of” connections that get passed along each generation.

I grew up New York. It was much more regionally focused where the ultimate win was a wall street job. Hence, competitive college culture was very focused on getting into the Wall Street pipeline schools and making those specific connections to support future career goals.

I’m in nyc now and it’s anti-Greek. It’s not elite enough for many, unless you’re talking Greek at Yale

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a thread. Are you all so insecure in how you've parented and in the kids that you've raised that you can't let your kids make their own choices without judging other kids and other parents?

We knew nothing about Greek before our oldest went to UVA. Neither did she. All we knew was that UVA was a great school, it was in state tuition, she was happy to go there, and it had a Greek system.

I don't remember how we reacted when she decided to rush, but I do remember her stories about the process. She went into the whole thing very open minded and very confident -- she just figured she'd be herself, as she always has been, and see where the chips fell. More than anything else, she has a good sense of humor and was looking to connect with other girls who were the same way. So she didn't hold back, not even a little, and in the end got a bid to a nice sorority with good and smart girls, had a great four years, and has stayed friends with them. They've all become happy, successful, well rounded, independent, open-minded women.

Had she not gotten a bid, trust me -- she would have survived.

I don't understand what everyone's problem is. If you've raised your kid right for the first 18 years, you need to trust them to make their own decisions when they get to college, and not deride other kids who make different ones. If you're not doing that, you've either raised kids who aren't confident, or you're not confident in either them or yourself, and that's not good.

To me, the vitriol and defensiveness that I'm seeing here is really just a mask for lack of confidence.

I said I made lifelong friends from my time in a house, but found it ultimately limiting. You can call that vitriol and a lack of confidence if you want to. I have enough confidence not to get worked up about it

So because that's how you found it, that means everyone should feel the same way?

Good thing I never said that. I was responding to the “rational discussion” idea. Those are my thoughts. Hope your kids love it.

But the whole "I found it limiting" would have as much to do with you as the system, right? For example, my Greek kid had friends both in and out of her house and was a bridesmaid years later in her first year roommate's wedding -- who never even rushed.

Sounds like you approached it as something that confined you. Not everyone does.

This is not the flex you think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a thread. Are you all so insecure in how you've parented and in the kids that you've raised that you can't let your kids make their own choices without judging other kids and other parents?

We knew nothing about Greek before our oldest went to UVA. Neither did she. All we knew was that UVA was a great school, it was in state tuition, she was happy to go there, and it had a Greek system.

I don't remember how we reacted when she decided to rush, but I do remember her stories about the process. She went into the whole thing very open minded and very confident -- she just figured she'd be herself, as she always has been, and see where the chips fell. More than anything else, she has a good sense of humor and was looking to connect with other girls who were the same way. So she didn't hold back, not even a little, and in the end got a bid to a nice sorority with good and smart girls, had a great four years, and has stayed friends with them. They've all become happy, successful, well rounded, independent, open-minded women.

Had she not gotten a bid, trust me -- she would have survived.

I don't understand what everyone's problem is. If you've raised your kid right for the first 18 years, you need to trust them to make their own decisions when they get to college, and not deride other kids who make different ones. If you're not doing that, you've either raised kids who aren't confident, or you're not confident in either them or yourself, and that's not good.

To me, the vitriol and defensiveness that I'm seeing here is really just a mask for lack of confidence.

I said I made lifelong friends from my time in a house, but found it ultimately limiting. You can call that vitriol and a lack of confidence if you want to. I have enough confidence not to get worked up about it

So because that's how you found it, that means everyone should feel the same way?

Good thing I never said that. I was responding to the “rational discussion” idea. Those are my thoughts. Hope your kids love it.

But the whole "I found it limiting" would have as much to do with you as the system, right? For example, my Greek kid had friends both in and out of her house and was a bridesmaid years later in her first year roommate's wedding -- who never even rushed.

Sounds like you approached it as something that confined you. Not everyone does.

This is not the flex you think it is.

Well, that makes zero sense.

I didn't mean it to be a "flex." I'm just stating a fact. You allowed going Greek to "limit" you. Not everyone does. Fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was in one, very active on Panhellenic board, husband was also in IFC. There are many pros and cons. I think it elicits strong reactions due to the immaturity of “sorry you didn’t get a bid” type of comments. Some Greeks don’t seem to comprehend that it is very unappealing for very valid reasons to some people. I am glad mine aren’t interested despite having an overall positive experience. I do understand why others are excited about it, it can be a lot of fun and friends for a lifetime.

Can you elaborate on this?

I credit it with gaining confidence and leadership opportunities, but the day to day was not conducive to what I would want for kids. Rushing is vapid, focus was on partying many days of week, hazing, learning was secondary to Greek lifestyle and being a top house on campus. My son is way too academic and focused, wouldn’t appeal. My daughter who could possibly be interested, I’d rather she focus on more productive things than hair, makeup. clothing, parties and tik toks. Yes, they do good things too, but the outward appearances in all aspects of life is the focus. That just doesn’t jive with my adult sensibilities anymore. I do understand houses and campuses differ on norms.

This is just filled with more generalizations. That people in Greek life can’t be “too academic.” And that sorority girls only focus on things that aren’t “productive.”

People don’t seem to realize that many schools have a huge range in Greek houses. That’s why we can’t have a meaningful discussion.

[Anonymous]

The Greek houses leading with academics, philanthropy, and inclusiveness should market out loud and attempt to counteract the other images that are so prevalent.

[Anonymous]

My nephew is in a frat at UW. There is a lot of forced binge drinking and getting blackout drunk pretty regularly, which he'd never done before. That gives me pause.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a thread. Are you all so insecure in how you've parented and in the kids that you've raised that you can't let your kids make their own choices without judging other kids and other parents?

We knew nothing about Greek before our oldest went to UVA. Neither did she. All we knew was that UVA was a great school, it was in state tuition, she was happy to go there, and it had a Greek system.

I don't remember how we reacted when she decided to rush, but I do remember her stories about the process. She went into the whole thing very open minded and very confident -- she just figured she'd be herself, as she always has been, and see where the chips fell. More than anything else, she has a good sense of humor and was looking to connect with other girls who were the same way. So she didn't hold back, not even a little, and in the end got a bid to a nice sorority with good and smart girls, had a great four years, and has stayed friends with them. They've all become happy, successful, well rounded, independent, open-minded women.

Had she not gotten a bid, trust me -- she would have survived.

I don't understand what everyone's problem is. If you've raised your kid right for the first 18 years, you need to trust them to make their own decisions when they get to college, and not deride other kids who make different ones. If you're not doing that, you've either raised kids who aren't confident, or you're not confident in either them or yourself, and that's not good.

To me, the vitriol and defensiveness that I'm seeing here is really just a mask for lack of confidence.

I said I made lifelong friends from my time in a house, but found it ultimately limiting. You can call that vitriol and a lack of confidence if you want to. I have enough confidence not to get worked up about it

So because that's how you found it, that means everyone should feel the same way?

Good thing I never said that. I was responding to the “rational discussion” idea. Those are my thoughts. Hope your kids love it.

But the whole "I found it limiting" would have as much to do with you as the system, right? For example, my Greek kid had friends both in and out of her house and was a bridesmaid years later in her first year roommate's wedding -- who never even rushed.

Sounds like you approached it as something that confined you. Not everyone does.

This is not the flex you think it is.

Well, that makes zero sense.

I didn't mean it to be a "flex." I'm just stating a fact. You allowed going Greek to "limit" you. Not everyone does. Fact.

I'm not the person who posted about limiting (although I agree). But my flex comment is because what you wrote calls back to the ol "we can't be racist. one of my son's groomsmen was black!" joke that it's uncanny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a regional DC thing to be so anti-Greek.

DMV exceptionalism is measured on academic/EC achievement with the ethos that you can climb into any white collar knowledge job you want with enough effort.

Southern culture (think Alabama) is about “fitting in” to a certain social ideal as the top goal.

New England is about maintaining legacy. Status is built around number and “value of” connections that get passed along each generation.

I grew up New York. It was much more regionally focused where the ultimate win was a wall street job. Hence, competitive college culture was very focused on getting into the Wall Street pipeline schools and making those specific connections to support future career goals.

I’m in nyc now and it’s anti-Greek. It’s not elite enough for many, unless you’re talking Greek at Yale

Yes I'm also in NYC and it's anti-greek. Same for when I was in SF. It seems like it's out of fashion with wealthy, cosmopolitan families who live on the coasts but still in fashion in the south (which includes some DMV) and midwest.

[Anonymous]

I was a fraternity member myself and don't want it for my kids. Frankly, I don't want to add anything to their experience that makes alcohol abuse and sexual misbehavior more likely, and I think we've proven that these entities tend to create the wrong environment. Not every way, not every day, and all of the bad can happen elsewhere. But do we really parent like this? "It's gone bad often before, let's just see how it plays out for my kid" is nothing I prefer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any mention of going Greek on this forum is always a trigger. Why is that? Why do people care so much? I mean, if it's not your thing, great, but why judge so harshly when somebody else does it?

Honestly, for me I see it as one of the last vestiges of white social exclusion along with country clubs.

I can get into most country clubs but a few still won't take me because I am not white. I think there is something similar with fraternities/sororities.
These are institutions that make it easy to be racist and they frequently attract students that are racist, indifferent to racism, or at least tolerant of racism.
So when you say "didn't get a bid hunh?" it sounds like racists rubbing it in.

I have a niece, objectively gorgeous and she wanted to join a sorority and it was no big deal because she was going to a northeastern school where the greek system has integrated.
But I know a kid that went to Duke and he is extremely athletic, smart, confident and popular and he ended up transferring to Chicago or all places to get the F out of there after his experience with the greek system. He was expected to accept a certain level or racism as playful, but the racism only went one way. This is not to single out Dule, I expect this is true at a lot of schools.