Honestly interested in sending child away

[Anonymous]

OP, do you have the resources to send her away? Some kids do well with the structure of a boarding school, and a little space in their relationship with their parents, but schools that serve kids with special needs well aren't cheap.

One thing a good special ed boarding school will do is provide lots of exposure to lots of different types of activities. Finding things that she enjoys and can be successful at will be a great step towards keeping her busy and engaged as a teenager.

What grade is she, and what is her performance like at school? Knowing those things might help me give suggestions on specific schools.

[Anonymous]

When people are forced to live with dislike, their behavior often becomes increasingly bizarre. I think a lot of this kid’s bad behavior is the result of her mother’s dislike.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi OP. I hope this will help. My parents sent me away to Shepard Pratt when I was about your daughter's age. I think I stayed around 90 days. I was not SN and I have a high IQ. My diagnosis was depression. I was treated with Prozac.

It was awful and my relationship with my parents never recovered. Even to this day I believe my diagnosis was off. I'll cop to OCD and an anxiety disorder, for sure. But not depression. It was basically like prison and I hated every moment of it. I felt shame, embarrassment and completely unloved.

The reason my parents sent me sound similar to yours. I was experiencing huge hormone shifts in addition to my OCD and anxiety and frankly, I had parents that had no clue how to help me deal with it. They were extremely rigid in their expectations and unwilling to find a way to work with me.

I look back on my life in amazement that I didn't end up worse off. Everything I've accomplished has been in spite of my traumatic upbringing and I know I could've been destined for much greater things with the help of a supportive and loving family. I mourn that loss every day.

I had a similar experience but with a different outcome. My parents sent me to Pratt when I was 12 for 90 days. Like PP, I agree, it was a prison like setting. The first 4 weeks were horrible. Not horrible in the sense that I was treated poorly but in the sense that I HAD to abide by the rules or there were consequences. Not beatings or shock therapy but loss of privileges such as eating in the dining room or having to calm down in the quiet room. And afterwards, I had to talk about my feelings with the psychiatrist. My parents would drive up to Baltimore and I would refuse to see them. There were times I was sent to the quiet room for refusing family therapy.

Once I got on board with the plan, life was so much easier. I was elevated to different "levels" and with each level came new found freedom. My roommate and I ended up at pretty high levels and we were able to walk the grounds unescorted. We demonstrated respect and the staff showed us respect back. What I was learning was how to accept what was expected of me and not fight everyone on every little thing.

While we like to think kids today have a say in their upbringing, a lot of what we teach kids is compliance to society norms. Kids that don't want to comply are identified as problems that need to be fixed. Compliance is much easier. ie you have to wear clothes. Truly, there's nothing that's going to happen a 10 year old that goes to the store naked; there's no safety reason to wear clothes, but society just doesn't accept going out in public naked---you have to put clothes on and comply. Learning how to accept what you need to do to comply is hard for some people.

Transitioning back to home life from Pratt was really hard. As much as I hated being there, I hated the adjustment to home life too. There is comfort in routine, structure, and clearly defined expectations.

Unlike PP, my relationship with my parents is fantastic. My mom has passed away but I talk to my father multiple times a week. For little things--how did you cook xyz, want to go to movies on Tuesday, the kids want to go to the park, want to come....

I don't remember what I was diagnosed with but I don't think it matters at this point in my life. I learned to talk about my feelings, express my frustrations appropriately, and remove myself from situations when my emotions were getting the best of me. Looking back, it was one of the greatest gifts my parents could have given me. Being a parent now, I can only imagine how hard this decision was for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When people are forced to live with dislike, their behavior often becomes increasingly bizarre. I think a lot of this kid’s bad behavior is the result of her mother’s dislike.

That can be, but telling OP she is a bad parent isn't going to help. There is a strained dynamic that's been going on for a while. Family therapy is needed, as well as a better understanding of what is going with her kid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When people are forced to live with dislike, their behavior often becomes increasingly bizarre. I think a lot of this kid’s bad behavior is the result of her mother’s dislike.

Spoken like an armchair psychologist who knows nothing of the challenges of living with a child like OP's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi OP. I hope this will help. My parents sent me away to Shepard Pratt when I was about your daughter's age. I think I stayed around 90 days. I was not SN and I have a high IQ. My diagnosis was depression. I was treated with Prozac.

It was awful and my relationship with my parents never recovered. Even to this day I believe my diagnosis was off. I'll cop to OCD and an anxiety disorder, for sure. But not depression. It was basically like prison and I hated every moment of it. I felt shame, embarrassment and completely unloved.

The reason my parents sent me sound similar to yours. I was experiencing huge hormone shifts in addition to my OCD and anxiety and frankly, I had parents that had no clue how to help me deal with it. They were extremely rigid in their expectations and unwilling to find a way to work with me.

I look back on my life in amazement that I didn't end up worse off. Everything I've accomplished has been in spite of my traumatic upbringing and I know I could've been destined for much greater things with the help of a supportive and loving family. I mourn that loss every day.

I had a similar experience but with a different outcome. My parents sent me to Pratt when I was 12 for 90 days. Like PP, I agree, it was a prison like setting. The first 4 weeks were horrible. Not horrible in the sense that I was treated poorly but in the sense that I HAD to abide by the rules or there were consequences. Not beatings or shock therapy but loss of privileges such as eating in the dining room or having to calm down in the quiet room. And afterwards, I had to talk about my feelings with the psychiatrist. My parents would drive up to Baltimore and I would refuse to see them. There were times I was sent to the quiet room for refusing family therapy.

Once I got on board with the plan, life was so much easier. I was elevated to different "levels" and with each level came new found freedom. My roommate and I ended up at pretty high levels and we were able to walk the grounds unescorted. We demonstrated respect and the staff showed us respect back. What I was learning was how to accept what was expected of me and not fight everyone on every little thing.

While we like to think kids today have a say in their upbringing, a lot of what we teach kids is compliance to society norms. Kids that don't want to comply are identified as problems that need to be fixed. Compliance is much easier. ie you have to wear clothes. Truly, there's nothing that's going to happen a 10 year old that goes to the store naked; there's no safety reason to wear clothes, but society just doesn't accept going out in public naked---you have to put clothes on and comply. Learning how to accept what you need to do to comply is hard for some people.

Transitioning back to home life from Pratt was really hard. As much as I hated being there, I hated the adjustment to home life too. There is comfort in routine, structure, and clearly defined expectations.

Unlike PP, my relationship with my parents is fantastic. My mom has passed away but I talk to my father multiple times a week. For little things--how did you cook xyz, want to go to movies on Tuesday, the kids want to go to the park, want to come....

I don't remember what I was diagnosed with but I don't think it matters at this point in my life. I learned to talk about my feelings, express my frustrations appropriately, and remove myself from situations when my emotions were getting the best of me. Looking back, it was one of the greatest gifts my parents could have given me. Being a parent now, I can only imagine how hard this decision was for them.

Sounds like PPP had a totally different relationship with her parents to begin with. And the fact that she got a misdiagnosis dorsn't help. OCD is pretty distinctive and doesn't look much like depression at all. And generally hospitalization is not necessary for OCD.

[Anonymous]

Did you ever love her, OP? When did you stop?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here and ok the problem is multifaceted, so I'm just going to address two things here.

1) The sugar-addiction thing is real. What people eat matters, (not just for weight gain/loss and health, but also for mental health and moods)

The gut communicates with the brain. The gut is like a garden with different types of bacteria that digest different kinds of things. So if you are feeding it sugar (and carbs from grains), those bacteria multiply, and when they get hungry, they signal the brain. Another example--if you stop eating dairy, those bacteria die off and that's why it's hard to go back on dairy after being off it.

But the bacteria affect moods, too. There is an NIH study--google it--that links eating fermented foods to decrease in social anxiety. (So you eat a little every day, to build up that bacteria in your gut)

So getting off sugar is like getting off a drug. PART of what is going on is you've got a kid who keeps jonesing for sugar; she's going in/out of withdrawal. Many people have this with coffee--they need their morning coffee, not to actually wake up, but to get rid of the beginnings of caffeine withdrawal symptoms--they just *think* that feeling like crap in the morning is normal but they've got it backwards. Not having their coffee fix makes them feel like sh*t, not waking up in the morning. So their coffee alleviates it but keeps them on the caffeine cycle. (I've been addicted to sugar and to caffeine, and man, it's shocking when you're off it to compare it to the 'before' state. It's only then when you realize the difference.)

You have a situation like a big tangled mess, and you need to try and tease apart the threads. The sugar/carbs is one thread.

Going off sugar/carbs will give your kid "carboflu" for about a week. It's the withdrawl part. Pick a week where you are ready to handle it, and go do it. She's 11, so maybe when she's in a quiet moment (maybe after a sugar fix), you can tell her we're going to try this.

here is a very well-respected website and you can find how to get off sugar there: marksdailyapple.com. Mark Sisson, the founder, has a science background but makes research easy for the lay person to understand.

2) Every parent should learn the concept of the "extinction burst." It is this: The rat presses a lever and gets cheese every time. The rat learns this, and only presses the lever when it's hungry.

Then the experimenter changes the rules. The rat presses the lever and gets no cheese. WTF? No cheese? The rat presses the lever again. No cheese. Again. No cheese.

Suddenly, the rat goes NUTS---starts pressing the lever 1000 times, trying to get the cheese. No cheese. Just as suddenly, the rat gives up and does not press the lever again.

The 1000 times part is the "extinction burst" which is the burst of behavior before it quits (the extinction of behavior). The burst is the brain re-learning that the rules have changed, and learning the new rule. Here, the new rule is: Pressing Lever Is Waste of My Time and Gets Me Nothing.

So in changing any bad behavior, you HAVE to be prepared to ride out the extinction burst. If you give in, then you've created "intermittent reinforcement" which is the worst...gambling behavior.

Even though your DD is only 11, here is a book does a great job in explaining the adolescent brain and most importantly, how YOU the parent should behave so as to get the results you want in your kid "Yes, Your Teen is Crazy!" My very difficult DD peaked at difficulty at 13, and the peak came when I got this book and changed MY behavior. I could have used this book when she was 11. OP, you are unwittingly giving your kid dopamine hits by your behavior and once you understand this, you will find it's easy to stop doing that, and *after* a massive extinction burst that you will ride out, her behavior will improve.

No doubt a good diet can help mood, but it sounds like OP's problems are more complex than that. My kid throws tantrums, and will eat sugar by the spoonful if I let her, but she takes responsibility for her own behavior. An 11-year old banging her head against the ceiling and blaming her parents for finding this unacceptable is in a whole different league. This requires some sort of intensive therapy of a type that OP has not yet found.

Did you miss the PP from the nanny who said that her charge is seriously troubled, still not possible to be educated in a traditional environment, but behavior is a billion times better after a gluten-free diet with no processed crap and very limited sugar? Do you think that child is not "in a whole different league"? Do you think she's making it up, or imagining it? Do you think she's doing all that extra work for fun?

The reality is that good diet can help a LOT. And poor diet can do a LOT of damage. Across the entire spectrum of behavior.

I agree with the PP that sugar is like a drug. But I actually think it's far worse than that - it's also gluten and casein that have drug-like effects in the body. Apparently these substances are similar to opioids in structure and bind to those receptors in the brain. You don't need to be a genius to have concerns about whether that's really a desirable thing.

I think the OP has to decide whether she has the energy to try to really help her child and go through with a diet. Otherwise maybe some sort of military-style or fairly strict boarding school might be beneficial, since they'd be doing the heavy lifting keeping the kid away from the majority of the processed crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here and ok the problem is multifaceted, so I'm just going to address two things here.

1) The sugar-addiction thing is real. What people eat matters, (not just for weight gain/loss and health, but also for mental health and moods)

The gut communicates with the brain. The gut is like a garden with different types of bacteria that digest different kinds of things. So if you are feeding it sugar (and carbs from grains), those bacteria multiply, and when they get hungry, they signal the brain. Another example--if you stop eating dairy, those bacteria die off and that's why it's hard to go back on dairy after being off it.

But the bacteria affect moods, too. There is an NIH study--google it--that links eating fermented foods to decrease in social anxiety. (So you eat a little every day, to build up that bacteria in your gut)

So getting off sugar is like getting off a drug. PART of what is going on is you've got a kid who keeps jonesing for sugar; she's going in/out of withdrawal. Many people have this with coffee--they need their morning coffee, not to actually wake up, but to get rid of the beginnings of caffeine withdrawal symptoms--they just *think* that feeling like crap in the morning is normal but they've got it backwards. Not having their coffee fix makes them feel like sh*t, not waking up in the morning. So their coffee alleviates it but keeps them on the caffeine cycle. (I've been addicted to sugar and to caffeine, and man, it's shocking when you're off it to compare it to the 'before' state. It's only then when you realize the difference.)

You have a situation like a big tangled mess, and you need to try and tease apart the threads. The sugar/carbs is one thread.

Going off sugar/carbs will give your kid "carboflu" for about a week. It's the withdrawl part. Pick a week where you are ready to handle it, and go do it. She's 11, so maybe when she's in a quiet moment (maybe after a sugar fix), you can tell her we're going to try this.

here is a very well-respected website and you can find how to get off sugar there: marksdailyapple.com. Mark Sisson, the founder, has a science background but makes research easy for the lay person to understand.

2) Every parent should learn the concept of the "extinction burst." It is this: The rat presses a lever and gets cheese every time. The rat learns this, and only presses the lever when it's hungry.

Then the experimenter changes the rules. The rat presses the lever and gets no cheese. WTF? No cheese? The rat presses the lever again. No cheese. Again. No cheese.

Suddenly, the rat goes NUTS---starts pressing the lever 1000 times, trying to get the cheese. No cheese. Just as suddenly, the rat gives up and does not press the lever again.

The 1000 times part is the "extinction burst" which is the burst of behavior before it quits (the extinction of behavior). The burst is the brain re-learning that the rules have changed, and learning the new rule. Here, the new rule is: Pressing Lever Is Waste of My Time and Gets Me Nothing.

So in changing any bad behavior, you HAVE to be prepared to ride out the extinction burst. If you give in, then you've created "intermittent reinforcement" which is the worst...gambling behavior.

Even though your DD is only 11, here is a book does a great job in explaining the adolescent brain and most importantly, how YOU the parent should behave so as to get the results you want in your kid "Yes, Your Teen is Crazy!" My very difficult DD peaked at difficulty at 13, and the peak came when I got this book and changed MY behavior. I could have used this book when she was 11. OP, you are unwittingly giving your kid dopamine hits by your behavior and once you understand this, you will find it's easy to stop doing that, and *after* a massive extinction burst that you will ride out, her behavior will improve.

No doubt a good diet can help mood, but it sounds like OP's problems are more complex than that. My kid throws tantrums, and will eat sugar by the spoonful if I let her, but she takes responsibility for her own behavior. An 11-year old banging her head against the ceiling and blaming her parents for finding this unacceptable is in a whole different league. This requires some sort of intensive therapy of a type that OP has not yet found.

Did you miss the PP from the nanny who said that her charge is seriously troubled, still not possible to be educated in a traditional environment, but behavior is a billion times better after a gluten-free diet with no processed crap and very limited sugar? Do you think that child is not "in a whole different league"? Do you think she's making it up, or imagining it? Do you think she's doing all that extra work for fun?

The reality is that good diet can help a LOT. And poor diet can do a LOT of damage. Across the entire spectrum of behavior.

I agree with the PP that sugar is like a drug. But I actually think it's far worse than that - it's also gluten and casein that have drug-like effects in the body. Apparently these substances are similar to opioids in structure and bind to those receptors in the brain. You don't need to be a genius to have concerns about whether that's really a desirable thing.

I think the OP has to decide whether she has the energy to try to really help her child and go through with a diet. Otherwise maybe some sort of military-style or fairly strict boarding school might be beneficial, since they'd be doing the heavy lifting keeping the kid away from the majority of the processed crap.

Oh stuff it with your stupid quackery until you can post some double-blind controlled studies showing that diets can cure mental illness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have a child that will be 11 in a few weeks. The following is honest sharing and I appreciate not being judged for it.

My child is not smart. She’s not good at anything. She has no interests. She is obsessed with sugar. She screams and loses her mind with us all the time.

We have tried meds, therapy groups, private school, executive function tutors...nothing works.

She refuses to accept blame and is only obsessed with blaming others for “making” her upset.

Example: she was losing her mind at the mall because I told her no when she asked for ice cream. She proceeded to scream and me the entire way to the car. Rather than put her little brother in the car with her screaming (again) I said she could calm down in the car and we would wait outside it.

A friend of hers from school and her parents drove by us and stopped to say hello. And heard her screaming. I told them she was having a meltdown.

She realized what was happening and freaked out because I told on her. Not that the only reason the whole situation existed was because of her choices.

Can a kid just be a bad person beyond repair?

We just want her out of our lives.

You say you have tried all this stuff, but none it will work if the bolded is true. What a cruel sentiment for any child, much less your own. Do you think she can’t tell that you think she’s stupid and not good at anything? There’s nobody who isn’t good at *anything.* Also her overreaction to the ice cream denial isn’t in any way indicative of a “sugar addiction.” Even if it were, she picked it up from somewhere.

I’m not trying to just blindly dismiss you, but what I read in this post makes me very, very sad.

[Anonymous]

Where would you send her? It seems like you might benefit from a break from each other. Just be sure you have a good counselor in place to help you explain why she goes away and brother gets to stay home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here and ok the problem is multifaceted, so I'm just going to address two things here.

1) The sugar-addiction thing is real. What people eat matters, (not just for weight gain/loss and health, but also for mental health and moods)

The gut communicates with the brain. The gut is like a garden with different types of bacteria that digest different kinds of things. So if you are feeding it sugar (and carbs from grains), those bacteria multiply, and when they get hungry, they signal the brain. Another example--if you stop eating dairy, those bacteria die off and that's why it's hard to go back on dairy after being off it.

But the bacteria affect moods, too. There is an NIH study--google it--that links eating fermented foods to decrease in social anxiety. (So you eat a little every day, to build up that bacteria in your gut)

So getting off sugar is like getting off a drug. PART of what is going on is you've got a kid who keeps jonesing for sugar; she's going in/out of withdrawal. Many people have this with coffee--they need their morning coffee, not to actually wake up, but to get rid of the beginnings of caffeine withdrawal symptoms--they just *think* that feeling like crap in the morning is normal but they've got it backwards. Not having their coffee fix makes them feel like sh*t, not waking up in the morning. So their coffee alleviates it but keeps them on the caffeine cycle. (I've been addicted to sugar and to caffeine, and man, it's shocking when you're off it to compare it to the 'before' state. It's only then when you realize the difference.)

You have a situation like a big tangled mess, and you need to try and tease apart the threads. The sugar/carbs is one thread.

Going off sugar/carbs will give your kid "carboflu" for about a week. It's the withdrawl part. Pick a week where you are ready to handle it, and go do it. She's 11, so maybe when she's in a quiet moment (maybe after a sugar fix), you can tell her we're going to try this.

here is a very well-respected website and you can find how to get off sugar there: marksdailyapple.com. Mark Sisson, the founder, has a science background but makes research easy for the lay person to understand.

2) Every parent should learn the concept of the "extinction burst." It is this: The rat presses a lever and gets cheese every time. The rat learns this, and only presses the lever when it's hungry.

Then the experimenter changes the rules. The rat presses the lever and gets no cheese. WTF? No cheese? The rat presses the lever again. No cheese. Again. No cheese.

Suddenly, the rat goes NUTS---starts pressing the lever 1000 times, trying to get the cheese. No cheese. Just as suddenly, the rat gives up and does not press the lever again.

The 1000 times part is the "extinction burst" which is the burst of behavior before it quits (the extinction of behavior). The burst is the brain re-learning that the rules have changed, and learning the new rule. Here, the new rule is: Pressing Lever Is Waste of My Time and Gets Me Nothing.

So in changing any bad behavior, you HAVE to be prepared to ride out the extinction burst. If you give in, then you've created "intermittent reinforcement" which is the worst...gambling behavior.

Even though your DD is only 11, here is a book does a great job in explaining the adolescent brain and most importantly, how YOU the parent should behave so as to get the results you want in your kid "Yes, Your Teen is Crazy!" My very difficult DD peaked at difficulty at 13, and the peak came when I got this book and changed MY behavior. I could have used this book when she was 11. OP, you are unwittingly giving your kid dopamine hits by your behavior and once you understand this, you will find it's easy to stop doing that, and *after* a massive extinction burst that you will ride out, her behavior will improve.

No doubt a good diet can help mood, but it sounds like OP's problems are more complex than that. My kid throws tantrums, and will eat sugar by the spoonful if I let her, but she takes responsibility for her own behavior. An 11-year old banging her head against the ceiling and blaming her parents for finding this unacceptable is in a whole different league. This requires some sort of intensive therapy of a type that OP has not yet found.

Did you miss the PP from the nanny who said that her charge is seriously troubled, still not possible to be educated in a traditional environment, but behavior is a billion times better after a gluten-free diet with no processed crap and very limited sugar? Do you think that child is not "in a whole different league"? Do you think she's making it up, or imagining it? Do you think she's doing all that extra work for fun?

The reality is that good diet can help a LOT. And poor diet can do a LOT of damage. Across the entire spectrum of behavior.

I agree with the PP that sugar is like a drug. But I actually think it's far worse than that - it's also gluten and casein that have drug-like effects in the body. Apparently these substances are similar to opioids in structure and bind to those receptors in the brain. You don't need to be a genius to have concerns about whether that's really a desirable thing.

I think the OP has to decide whether she has the energy to try to really help her child and go through with a diet. Otherwise maybe some sort of military-style or fairly strict boarding school might be beneficial, since they'd be doing the heavy lifting keeping the kid away from the majority of the processed crap.

Failure to take responsibility for your own behavior has not, to my knowledge, ever been shown to be amenable to diet. If you see such research, I'd love to see it. It is a symptom of a personality disorder, which would be difficult or impossible to treat. But at age 11, the personality is still developing so you can't be diagnosed with a personality disorder yet. That's actually good news because there may be interventions for children that can prevent it or mitigate it before it's too late.

My nephew was diagnosed with a personality disorder at age 20, and yes it is a whole different animal from other disorders, and extremely hard for even the best parents to deal with.

[Anonymous]

Agree something is wrong in the tone of OP. Troll, depression?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a child that will be 11 in a few weeks. The following is honest sharing and I appreciate not being judged for it.

My child is not smart. She’s not good at anything. She has no interests. She is obsessed with sugar. She screams and loses her mind with us all the time.

We have tried meds, therapy groups, private school, executive function tutors...nothing works.

She refuses to accept blame and is only obsessed with blaming others for “making” her upset.

Example: she was losing her mind at the mall because I told her no when she asked for ice cream. She proceeded to scream and me the entire way to the car. Rather than put her little brother in the car with her screaming (again) I said she could calm down in the car and we would wait outside it.

A friend of hers from school and her parents drove by us and stopped to say hello. And heard her screaming. I told them she was having a meltdown.

She realized what was happening and freaked out because I told on her. Not that the only reason the whole situation existed was because of her choices.

Can a kid just be a bad person beyond repair?

We just want her out of our lives.

You say you have tried all this stuff, but none it will work if the bolded is true. What a cruel sentiment for any child, much less your own. Do you think she can’t tell that you think she’s stupid and not good at anything? There’s nobody who isn’t good at *anything.* Also her overreaction to the ice cream denial isn’t in any way indicative of a “sugar addiction.” Even if it were, she picked it up from somewhere.

I’m not trying to just blindly dismiss you, but what I read in this post makes me very, very sad.

[Anonymous]

OP -- camp and boarding school are short-term fixes. That's just kicking the can down the road. If you really care about this child, you would: make sure she is in therapy, You are in therapy, She is on the right medications and she has a strict schedule and diet.

I'm not saying this from the perspective of someone who doesn't know. I have an autistic child at home. He can be brutal to deal with and I sometimes don't like him. But I love him and do all of the above things for my child... even sent him to private school when public wasn't working out.

But... you haven't divulged yet whether you have tried these things. They are hard work. They involve more than monetary investment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here and ok the problem is multifaceted, so I'm just going to address two things here.

1) The sugar-addiction thing is real. What people eat matters, (not just for weight gain/loss and health, but also for mental health and moods)

The gut communicates with the brain. The gut is like a garden with different types of bacteria that digest different kinds of things. So if you are feeding it sugar (and carbs from grains), those bacteria multiply, and when they get hungry, they signal the brain. Another example--if you stop eating dairy, those bacteria die off and that's why it's hard to go back on dairy after being off it.

But the bacteria affect moods, too. There is an NIH study--google it--that links eating fermented foods to decrease in social anxiety. (So you eat a little every day, to build up that bacteria in your gut)

So getting off sugar is like getting off a drug. PART of what is going on is you've got a kid who keeps jonesing for sugar; she's going in/out of withdrawal. Many people have this with coffee--they need their morning coffee, not to actually wake up, but to get rid of the beginnings of caffeine withdrawal symptoms--they just *think* that feeling like crap in the morning is normal but they've got it backwards. Not having their coffee fix makes them feel like sh*t, not waking up in the morning. So their coffee alleviates it but keeps them on the caffeine cycle. (I've been addicted to sugar and to caffeine, and man, it's shocking when you're off it to compare it to the 'before' state. It's only then when you realize the difference.)

You have a situation like a big tangled mess, and you need to try and tease apart the threads. The sugar/carbs is one thread.

Going off sugar/carbs will give your kid "carboflu" for about a week. It's the withdrawl part. Pick a week where you are ready to handle it, and go do it. She's 11, so maybe when she's in a quiet moment (maybe after a sugar fix), you can tell her we're going to try this.

here is a very well-respected website and you can find how to get off sugar there: marksdailyapple.com. Mark Sisson, the founder, has a science background but makes research easy for the lay person to understand.

2) Every parent should learn the concept of the "extinction burst." It is this: The rat presses a lever and gets cheese every time. The rat learns this, and only presses the lever when it's hungry.

Then the experimenter changes the rules. The rat presses the lever and gets no cheese. WTF? No cheese? The rat presses the lever again. No cheese. Again. No cheese.

Suddenly, the rat goes NUTS---starts pressing the lever 1000 times, trying to get the cheese. No cheese. Just as suddenly, the rat gives up and does not press the lever again.

The 1000 times part is the "extinction burst" which is the burst of behavior before it quits (the extinction of behavior). The burst is the brain re-learning that the rules have changed, and learning the new rule. Here, the new rule is: Pressing Lever Is Waste of My Time and Gets Me Nothing.

So in changing any bad behavior, you HAVE to be prepared to ride out the extinction burst. If you give in, then you've created "intermittent reinforcement" which is the worst...gambling behavior.

Even though your DD is only 11, here is a book does a great job in explaining the adolescent brain and most importantly, how YOU the parent should behave so as to get the results you want in your kid "Yes, Your Teen is Crazy!" My very difficult DD peaked at difficulty at 13, and the peak came when I got this book and changed MY behavior. I could have used this book when she was 11. OP, you are unwittingly giving your kid dopamine hits by your behavior and once you understand this, you will find it's easy to stop doing that, and *after* a massive extinction burst that you will ride out, her behavior will improve.

No doubt a good diet can help mood, but it sounds like OP's problems are more complex than that. My kid throws tantrums, and will eat sugar by the spoonful if I let her, but she takes responsibility for her own behavior. An 11-year old banging her head against the ceiling and blaming her parents for finding this unacceptable is in a whole different league. This requires some sort of intensive therapy of a type that OP has not yet found.

Did you miss the PP from the nanny who said that her charge is seriously troubled, still not possible to be educated in a traditional environment, but behavior is a billion times better after a gluten-free diet with no processed crap and very limited sugar? Do you think that child is not "in a whole different league"? Do you think she's making it up, or imagining it? Do you think she's doing all that extra work for fun?

The reality is that good diet can help a LOT. And poor diet can do a LOT of damage. Across the entire spectrum of behavior.

I agree with the PP that sugar is like a drug. But I actually think it's far worse than that - it's also gluten and casein that have drug-like effects in the body. Apparently these substances are similar to opioids in structure and bind to those receptors in the brain. You don't need to be a genius to have concerns about whether that's really a desirable thing.

I think the OP has to decide whether she has the energy to try to really help her child and go through with a diet. Otherwise maybe some sort of military-style or fairly strict boarding school might be beneficial, since they'd be doing the heavy lifting keeping the kid away from the majority of the processed crap.

Sounds like they changed a lot more than diet over 4 years, and the kid still has to go to a psychiatrist weekly and attend an SN school, so yeah, diet alone just isn't going do it for many of our kids.